Assassins and bruisers are so bad that supports don't even take exhaust anymore

FalconPawwwwnch·Nov 5, 2017·65 votes·4,025 views

Really sad isn't it

95 Comments

Taliyah RocksNov 5, 201733 votes

Don't forget that they removed the attack speed slow from Exhaust, so that's one less reason to take it, especially wince it lost efficiency vs ADCs (and other atk speed reliant champions)

JustMonika13Nov 5, 201741 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Hands r 2 Big,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m4nYyRiw,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-11-05T19:47:50.384+0000)

Don't forget that they removed the attack speed slow from Exhaust, so that's one less reason to take it, especially wince it lost efficiency vs ADCs (and other atk speed reliant champions)

I remember the days when everyone, Assassin, Skirmisher, Mage, and ADC mains alike were complaining about how much power was packed into Exhaust, with its MS slow, Reduced damage, Reduced defenses, and AS slow.

A year later, people seem to finally regret bitching so much?

I miss old Exhaust.

Velzard of KozNov 5, 20179 votes

Tbh If I recall well it got nerfed because it was needlessly strong against Assasins

HawkefireNov 6, 201716 votes

Honestly, once they removed the reduced defenses, it was fine. I still don't understand why they removed the attack speed debuff, that was one of the biggest reasons that I took that spell.

HibekiNov 6, 20171 votes

Because a summoner spell that is basically a stun against everyone is needlessly overpowered?

AVL PrinceNov 6, 201713 votes

I can literally think of three ways you can play around exhaust off the top of my head and I’m not even that good.

“Basically a stun” is an absolutely horrible comparison. Slows are a joke in this game, so we can quit with the movement impairment bs - the blatantly offensive utilities of the spell were removed (- defenses), and even if the attack speed were still there, you’d still be able to cast spells to your hearts content, which, if you’re 75% of champions (anyone who isn’t a marksman or a unique top laner), is absolutely good enough.

You can kite the duration with any movement abilities.

You can cc the enemy and then literally walk away (only optional with CC but it’s fairly accessible)

You can monitor the cooldown and choose your engagements wisely.

All of these are options that are quite effective against exhaust (especially the third, in fact THE EASIEST WAY to counter an exhaust is to just use the playey’s lack of judgement to force them to waste it early and then disengage, because what the fuck is that 35% slow going to do to me when I’m playing one of about a hundred champions that can very quickly relocate themselves)

HibekiNov 6, 20171 votes

Slows are quite literally the opposite of a joke.

You can have a 50% movespeed buff, but a 20% slow will still fuck you. The fact that i need to hold all my spells and act completely different just for a single summoner spell they might not even use shows how stupidly powerful it is.

Not all characters have movement abilities and most of them would need to have used them already to be in a position where exhaust was needed to be used on them.

Im speaking about pre nerf exhaust, now its a bit more acceptable.

ProvengreilNov 7, 20171 votes

slows do nothing to dashes and ARE nothing compared to snares, charms, knock-ups, and grabs. Mobility creep is real and slows are barely worth it. Even ASHE needs a caulfields to catch her own slowed target.

FaieNov 7, 20171 votes

Why does ashe need a caulfields? Caulfields give 10% CDR, I don't understand your point.

OyddAWqJ5rNov 6, 20171 votes

Attack speed debuffs as a whole were just extremely feelsbad (since the mechanic is to literally make the opponent feel clunky), especially when applied in 0 counterplay forms such as click target exhaust.

So click target AS debuffs and non-counterplayable AS debuffs (Wither, Exhaust, Anivia's Ult, Warden's Mail, etc?) were drastically reduced or even removed.

However Malphite's AS debuff and Nunu's stayed relatively the same in power since Malphite's requires point blank usage and Nunu's is literally the only thing he does besides cheese ult and be a nuisance to the enemy jg (and it's only a 25% cripple).

It also unnecessarily crippled attack speed builds while crit builds suffered much less impact to their damage output.

So to open up new viable build paths and to let Aatrox see atleast some play, click target AS debuffs were nerfed.

Overall, I agree with the change. A pure damage reduction is much better and makes you feel less bad about putting it on anyone that isn't an ADC or attack speed fighter.

HawkefireNov 6, 20171 votes

Got to disagree with you Sleeper. I always viewed exhaust as one of the best anti-dps spells in the game, which is something that this game really lacks now. And yes, exhaust is still effective against DPS, it is just significantly less effective against it than it used to be. Exhaust was a fairly versatile spell but really shined when using it against ADCs and attack speed fighters, largely because it was really damn good at dealing with sustained dps. Sure it isn't as good against most DPS mages, like swain, but that isn't necessary as there are different ways to avoid damage from champions like swain. You cannot avoid the DPS from an ADC, and you can only kite an attack speed fighter for so long before he actually catches you (and if you are melee, you don't even get the luxury of avoiding his damage by kiting). Now exhaust is mostly just an anti-burst spell. Which I will grant you was something it did pretty good before, but there were other ways to deal with burst that we have access to, such as shield and to a lesser extent heal.

OyddAWqJ5rNov 7, 20171 votes

That's fine. Just differing opinions on whether it should be anti-everything or anti-DPS.

I just prefer the current due to how versatile it is.

charge attackNov 6, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I remember the days when everyone, Assassin, Skirmisher, Mage, and ADC mains alike were complaining about how much power was packed into Exhaust, with its MS slow, Reduced damage, Reduced defenses, and AS slow.

A year later, people seem to finally regret bitching so much?

I miss old Exhaust.

Really? Old exhaust was retarded.

Exhaust gave you more kill pressure than ignite and saved you more than barrier/heal,

It was so overloaded in what it gave you, and that was the reason it was taken bot lane EVERY GAME. Now it’s not just ignite, Barrier/Heal is also viable because no exhaust isn’t all powerful.

JefftiffyNov 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I remember the days when everyone, Assassin, Skirmisher, Mage, and ADC mains alike were complaining about how much power was packed into Exhaust, with its MS slow, Reduced damage, Reduced defenses, and AS slow.

A year later, people seem to finally regret bitching so much?

I miss old Exhaust.

Except that it shows an inherent balancing problem with the other summoner's that if you remove most of the utility from 1 of the only 2 summoner's that effects another person on your team positively.

Seriously you have 3 choices bot lane for efficiency summoner 7 summoner 14 summoner 3 . summoner 12 can be in bot but taking it reduces your in lane pressure. You basically have to take because summoner 21 is barely efficient in a 1 person scenario and is rarely useful. Making it a choice of + or . So any changes to the triangle automatically messes everything up in bot lane because summoner 7 and summoner 3 and so poorly designed in their current states. I wouldn't be surprised to see a summoner spell rework sometime soon (possibly mid season 8) with Zoe being released soon.

2Charmnot2CharmNov 5, 20174 votes

Not just attack speed you forgot it toke away your Armor/MR so it works both as a Defensive/Offensive summoner spell.

HalcyonDwellerNov 5, 201717 votes

Heal became common for supports to use instead of Exhaust because it worked with Ardent Censer. It wasn't because of Bruisers and Assassins.

zaire90Nov 5, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Heal became common for supports to use instead of Exhaust because it worked with Ardent Censer. It wasn't because of Bruisers and Assassins.

Nah while heal was used because of ardent exhaust lost its attack speed reduction and mr/armor reduction which is the main reason why people just take ign in botlane if ur not a n ardent user

AirKingNeoNov 6, 20173 votes

No? Exhaust became unbroken long before supports took heal.

HalcyonDwellerNov 6, 20173 votes

That is correct. The events and balance changes were far enough apart that it's clearly not cause and effect.

Exhaust was made weaker to balance it with other summoner spells. Then months later Ardent Censer made it powerful to take heal, so enchanters started bringing Heal in place of the marksman so that they could apply the Ardent Censer buff to their marksman whenever their lane would normally use Heal.

It's completely disconnected.

ÇhåryzårdNov 6, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Heal became common for supports to use instead of Exhaust because it worked with Ardent Censer. It wasn't because of Bruisers and Assassins.

Tbh I main support and I take Heal because I get more buffs on it with Redemption, Ardent, and Windspeakers and then my adc is free to take Barrier which helps them more in trades than Exhaust from what I've seen

ElikainNov 6, 201710 votes

You mean to tell me that SS diversity is now a bad thing? Yep, we're on the LoL boards alright...

YoungFarmerNov 6, 20179 votes

I think its mostly because with summoner 3 summoner 7 item 3190 item 3107 item 3109 Lulu Janna Soraka Its nearly impossible to assassinate anything. Even with exhaust not being used its still very hard to assassinate shit with all those heals and shields.

ZT XperimentorNov 6, 20175 votes

More like exhaust got nerfed too hard. It no longer slows attack speed, what's the most dangerous class right now? Auto-attackers.

PrinceOfStormsNov 6, 20172 votes

Why not bring back the attack speed slow at double strength for ranged champions (80% for ranged, 40% for melee)? That way maybe ADCs would have a counter once in a blue moon.

PePsiLemoNNNov 6, 20175 votes

Or let's look from a logical point of view , not from a biased one?

Enchanter Supports take heal so that ADC's can take barrier to make them even more unkillable , never seen Braum Blitzcrank Leona take heal.

kalima994Nov 6, 20173 votes

They can just take ignite tot shit on people in lane and still don't need exhaust

Devilreaper XIIINov 5, 20173 votes

O.o exhaust still lowers damage done by 40%.....

NTrumpWeTrustNov 6, 20173 votes

You would think exhaust being as bad as it is would encourage people to play more assassins/bruisers. But they don't because theyre THAT bad

CasterGilgameshNov 6, 20173 votes

how is exhaust bad?

NTrumpWeTrustNov 6, 20173 votes

Well, in the bot lane for example. Heal is way more versatile and therefor more valuable and if you want to take heal on ADC and something else on your support, then you take ignite because it's better for winning lane than exhaust.

In the mid lane if you're a mage and you're up against an assassin then exhaust is kind of pointless unless you can literally exhaust before any damage goes out and, again, heal is arguably just as good of a survival tool while being more versatile. Easy access to hourglass/arm gaurd means as long as you're not being outskilled by the enemy, you're not going to get 1 shot.

The only time I would take exhaust is if I was an assassin and REALLY didn't want to die to an enemy assassin. But even then, it's probably more valuable to take ignite to pick up kills in the early-mid game due to the roaming nature of assassins.

Daedric EtwahlNov 6, 20171 votes

I would argue that exhaust isn't as worthless as people in this thread say it is. As a Sona main I always take exhaust because it's an extra layer of reliability to protect my adc, myself, and my team from anything. And yes I know Heal does much of the same, but I'm not high elo, so it comes down to personal preference. I'm not reliable to use Heal because my muscle memory will think I have Exhaust, same reason my Flash is always on D.

I hate it when an ADC is trying to dictate to me to take Heal. I know what I'm doing.

pro rusher 2Nov 7, 20171 votes

People here are saying that exhaust is weak, becouse it got HUGE nerf

Daedric EtwahlNov 7, 20171 votes

That nerf was a long time ago. This Barrier/Heal trend cropped up relatively recently. Perhaps that made the tradeoff more justified, but Exhaust in itself is still absolutely fine.

pro rusher 2Nov 8, 20171 votes

Barrier heal is new, but if adc takes heal, than support like blitz/thresh (any kill lane support), would take ignite over exhaust. It's not the problem that assasins are supper underpowerd. The problem is, that exhaust got nerfed too hard to be taken any more on kill lane supports. I am support main, and you can try playing few games on exhaust and few games on ignite. Than look at your results.

Daedric EtwahlNov 8, 20171 votes

I'm a support main as well, specifically a Sona main, and I swear by Exhaust because at any point in the game it can keep not only my ADC but also myself alive far better than Heal ever could, especially vs a diver or assassin.

pro rusher 2Nov 8, 20171 votes

This thread is made, becouse a guy thinks that adc's are so op, that supports don't even need exhaust any more, and that's why they don't take it.. but if exhaust was like before, it would be taken more often..

Daedric EtwahlNov 8, 20171 votes

ADCs are pretty strong right now, the meta still surrounds them. Thing is, both Heal and Exhaust exist as tools for a support to protect the ADC, and a support can take either of them and they both function fine.

However, as far as I'm concerned, I will always take Exhaust because it is a far better tool than Heal at protecting ME, the support. I despise it when I get into champ select and my ADC thinks it's fine to try to command me to take Heal.

pro rusher 2Nov 8, 20171 votes

On sona, you are probably right ( if sona heal cd is longer than 10 seconds, taking heal is not bad, becouse support items go well with heal -Ardent ). I just want to know.. do you think assasins are underpowerd?

Daedric EtwahlNov 8, 20171 votes

Sona's W goes sub 10 sec cd later on.

I can't say about assassins, I really just know sona. Im not informed enough to make that claim.

devdev463Nov 6, 20173 votes

exhaust has been nerfed a shit ton though, it's not really suprising tbh.

DengedenNov 6, 20173 votes

I mean, that's what you get for whining about exhaust and about Yasuo Zed Fizz Graves Irelia

DuskDaUmbreonNov 6, 20173 votes

Right. It's totally not because people are going for more early-game power, and exhaust just kinda sucks right now. It's definitely because assassins suck. Nope, no other, completely, 100% logical reason whatsoever.

CorvidNov 6, 20173 votes

Assassins besides Rengar are fine, stop with the circlejerk.

Exhaust is super weak, thats why people stopped taking it. It just doesnt do enough to keep someone alive compared to heal+barrier in lane.

HalcyonDwellerNov 6, 20172 votes

Nah, they didn't stop bringing exhaust because of it being weak or not. It's because Heal became much stronger due to Ardent Censer.

Exhaust was changed a long time ago, people still took it because it was balanced with the other summoner spells.

After Ardent Censer became mandatory, people figured out they could bring heal on the support instead of the marksman and they would get the Ardent Censer buff on the marksman from casting it. Suddenly Heal was significantly stronger than other, more balanced summoner spells for supports.

voilà, new meta.

tldr; it wasn't exhaust getting weaker. It was Heal + Ardent Censer becoming OP and mandatory.

Daddy AntsNov 6, 20173 votes

The reason supports don't take exhaust is completely unrelated to what you have said.

The synergy between summoner 7 + Windspeaker's Blessing making the heal 10% stronger is why they take heal which allows the ADC to take summoner 21 .

Windspeakers will be gone on Wednesday so summoner 3 may return.

pro rusher 2Nov 15, 20171 votes

Finally somebodey that knows what he's talkig about

OyddAWqJ5rNov 6, 20172 votes

I've never had the issue. In fact exhaust is the only reason I wouldn't be able to kill my target usually.

ThefrostyvikingNov 6, 20172 votes

Dude have you ever played ADC/support?

You basically pick ignite to kill people early with it, and negate healing.

It's really good on all in supports like thresh,blitz or leona.

Exhaust is what you pick when you know enemy assassins and divers will be a problem and you can't get kills in lane even with ignite.

So it's basically the difference between wanting to be safe and wanting to snowball.

The reason it wasn't so prevalent before is because enhancer barriers basically negated the existance of all in champs, but after nerfs the aggro supports are are strong enough to break in early once again and nothing is better than ignite for getting kills in early all ins, especially in the botlane where 2 people can focus a single target.

It also works on mages wanting to burst and negate panic heals, like Zyra or vel koz.

LordGeovanniNov 6, 20172 votes

Bruisers bad yea. assassins bad no. Mages just have to much defense in raw health and defenses (but i guess rune rework will change that) along with cc and shield spells to go along with their burst spells.) Adcs deal to much damage burst or dps. and the defenses thing again too.