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A request for next season's jungle balance

ValyrianBlade··1 votes·329 views

Can we please somehow balance the jungle such that junglers cannot gank at level 2?

It's getting really annoying to get a solid edge on your lane opponent by repeated superior trades, positioning yourself to control the lane and then get ganked at level 2 (for either a kill or burn your flash or w/e).

I mean, at least when junglers waited until level 3 to gank I had about 4 waves of creeps to establish lane dominance before they showed up. Now they show up before I can even clear the second wave. How is that fair? How can I show superior skill and win a lane if I have less than ONE MINUTE to do so before the enemy jungler can show up and deny me anything? I understand that it's high risk high reward, but seriously laners should have some OPPORTUNITY to actually win 1v1 before the enemy jungler can start camping them and decide to make it impossible for them to carry.

I mean, I don't even get a ward charge up by the time he's ganking. Use your first ward before minions spawn and you don't get the second until the third wave. No way I even have a chance to see the gank coming. It just feels rotten. It's one thing if I get ganked after 2+ minutes of laning - I can recognize that I made a mistake and should have warded or not been so extended. At level 2 though, with no wards available, to get flash-engaged when I'm ahead in the lane with 50% health left to their 20%?

2 minutes. That's all I ask. 2 minutes where I can safely bully my lane opponent without fear of the enemy jungler messing it up. And if not that, at least give me a ward right away then. Start me with my second ward as soon as minions get to lane.

13 Comments

Winters Dawn1 votes

I think lvl2 gank has,got to be pretty rare

JhomasTefferson1 votes

Theyre not too rare. Lee sin can do it, teemo, twitch, eve, trynd, mundo, graves, basically any jg that can start red and doesn't need all 3 abilities to do stuff.

Need Gold 4 Tent1 votes

Lee's overloaded but some non-meta jungle champs are actually reliant on their level 2 ganks to actually remain in the game because they are unable to farm reliably (in exchange for the sick level 2 vs level 1 laner ganks).

JhomasTefferson1 votes

Lee isn't overloaded anymore. I used to play him a lot more, but with all the nerfs he's got over the years, he's just not what he used to be. I used to be able to carry with him, now i can't. The meta might have shifted a bit too, to stuff that counters him more easily, but still, i find it hard to be impactful with him these days.

Twitch is said to be reliant on lvl 2 ganks. I have forgone them from time to time when i play him(eve too) to take the yung scuttle, get hp back, and then farm the single target camps, looking for a good gank opportunity if/when the enemy pushes too hard. I do this against junglers like lee who might countergank real hard and kill me, as a way to sorta play safer. It stops you from getting an early snowball, but, it also prevents an enemy one.

ps. You can then rely more on a powerspike after your first back, right into a gank. Say, get boots and a dagger, or red smite and a dagger. The champs who are "level 2 gank reliant" are really just red buff reliant, so you could wait for that to come up again, time it with a back, and then go to a lane.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

It's not even that the junglers who do it want to do it. I'm getting ganked at level 2 by gragas for example. It's simply because I'm punishing my Lane opponent early and hard, and they're stepping in before i can even see it coming. I don't like how the smite heal let's anyone just use an extra health pot and gank at full health after 2 camps. After the second camp i feel like they should be weaker and need to get 3 off the third camp. Doing 1 camp then ganking is higher risk because it's before we've traded enough for the jungler to manage the finish alone . Going to a Lane that's trading heavily and both are low and at the same level as you is not a risk, worst case scenario you're reseting a Lane to even that was bound to give first blood.

JhomasTefferson1 votes

A level 2 gank usually happens after the first camp, after 2 camps it still works, but either way, maybe you shouldnt push out so far.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

I understand that strategies need to change sometimes.

My strategy was always to abuse the first 3 waves, establish Lane dominance (typically 50% to 10-20% health advantage, with corrupting potion charges remaining but not used because i want the mana out of them) and reset the wave (push under tower) so that I'm relatively safe from ganks when the jungler hits 3.

Doesn't work when every jungler can gank at 2.

KindredAndWolf1 votes

{quoted}

I understand that strategies need to change sometimes.

My strategy was always to abuse the first 3 waves, establish Lane dominance (typically 50% to 10-20% health advantage, with corrupting potion charges remaining but not used because i want the mana out of them) and reset the wave (push under tower) so that I'm relatively safe from ganks when the jungler hits 3.

Doesn't work when every jungler can gank at 2.

Sounds exactly like a good reason to gank you level 2. You can't EVER feel safe in this game.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

Well of course it's a good reason for the jungler to gank me at level 2!

What I'm trying to say is that it feels unfair. I literally get 1 wave of actual 1v1 with my lane opponent. After that, I have to play like a coward and wait for the enemy jungler to show before I can do anything. How is any laner supposed to win lane with that attitude? I can go for it as normal, but then it's a 50-50, either their jungler is near top-side or near bot-side (even if you know where they started, you don't know if they did buff to buff, or did buff to a small camp on the same side).

I wouldn't mind nearly as much if I had a ward charge available at that time. You can tell me to save my first ward charge, and sometimes I do and it's not an issue (because I can see the gank coming early enough to get out without taking too much damage [even if it costs my flash]). However there are lots of times you can't hold the ward charge. A lot of junglers want their alternative jungle entrance warded (and as a top laner that's always me). I'll ward it myself instantly if the enemy team has a strong level 1 to invade with (I honestly don't understand why more people don't invade top side, there's typically only 1 person there so it's far less risk as it's a 3v1 or even 5v1 if you find them). I don't think it would be unfair to give us 1 ward charge off the start, and a second ward charge when the second minion wave spawns. Junglers seem to be able to do super-early, lane-warping, ganks with too little penalty. If they fail they hardly lose anything, especially if your jungler isn't far enough in their clear to steal their other buff (even worse if they are blue side, start red buff then come top and leave blue open - as your jungler can't take their blue). They get to apply super early pressure that really messes up the laner's strategy with almost no penalty to themselves even if they fail.

JhomasTefferson1 votes

You sound bad.

Also, this would be fixed if they just put green wards back in the game.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

{quoted}

You sound bad.

Also, this would be fixed if they just put green wards back in the game.

Not really - you can't buy a green ward (or the equal cost vision ward) with your starting gold. Give me 75g extra to start and I'll gladly take a vision ward.

I understand that you need to know the enemy jungler to be good. I disagree that someone is bad when they've got double their Lane opponents health after one and a half waves. There should be a time that i can know the jungler won't be able to interfere. Having to respect their pressure whenever they're out of vision makes it too hard for laners to get an early lead. If i have the advantage at levels 1-2 and 11+, but a disadvantage at levels 3-10, i shouldn't be completely unable to use that advantage because at level 2 the enemy jungler could gank me. Aside from like shaco and Lee, and maybe eve and rengar, there were few junglers that could gank at level 2 without huge risk in past seasons (4-6). I don't mind respecting a few junglers that specialize in early pressure - i mind respecting them all early.

JhomasTefferson1 votes

You can buy a red ward first. Get a dorans and it.

JhomasTefferson1 votes

when sight wards (greens) were still in the game, you could start with one of them too, Vision>pots

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