Why is DFG not allowed to be in the game, but Assassin dagger is?

Danny DeVito··83 votes·5,304 views

Am I missing some context here?

105 Comments

PDE5 Inhibitors111 votes

Because Zed didn't use DFG.

Prospector Pete5 votes

^^

Dragonface9 votes

I lol'd. Take my upvote.

7ha7guy7773 votes

RIP DFG Zed

brad49 votes

because assassin dagger doesnt do 15% max health on activate, then passively increase all magic damage on the target by 20% for 4 seconds

the items are so different that to try and make a comparison like this is just not possible

originary9117 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hi lm Brad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lw91cUGY,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-12-21T23:45:19.440+0000)

because assassin dagger doesnt do 15% max health on activate, then passively increase all magic damage on the target by 20% for 4 seconds

the items are so different that to try and make a comparison like this is just not possible

This, I'm amazed at how stupid Boards are when it comes to AD assassins. The hate is real. I've seen people saying that the new LW is better for Assassins...and that Assassins shouldn't be able to damage tanks when they're 3 levels ahead and over 10 kills up. Sorry, but if a Talon has successfully killed every member on the enemy team, is 10 kills ahead of everybody else and several levels to boot, he deserves to be able to pop that 0/2 tank at top lane like a grape.

Bedl44m5 votes

THANKYOU, we work hard for our talon kills. And the undying Mundo is really a buzzkill riot.

originary913 votes

{quoted}

THANKYOU, we work hard for our talon kills. And the undying Mundo is really a buzzkill riot.

The new LW is a massive kick in the balls tbh. It's such a waste to pick up because it's inefficient at getting what our role does done - Killing squishies, yet at the same time putting a dent in tanks becomes impossible without it. BC just doesn't cut it, especially considering that most Assassins won't get to above 4/5 stacks until their burst combo is over. =/

I wonder how long it'll take for Mages and AP champions to realise that if they run Armour seals and Armour Quints, start cloth 5 and rush a chain vest that we literally won't be able to put a dent in them. You can literally do this, shove hard for the first 3-4ish waves, go B and come back at level 4 with a chain vest and 75-90 armour. Goodbye level 6 burst. The only one that may be able to get through that 80 armour is Zed, but if he does you're just not doing it right...

Though maybe Riot realised this and removed Mana pots to try and prevent it, but even if that's the case you can still make up for the loss of mana regen by being frugal/running mana regen runes.

SpecterVonBaren3 votes

{quoted}

The new LW is a massive kick in the balls tbh. It's such a waste to pick up because it's inefficient at getting what our role does done - Killing squishies, yet at the same time putting a dent in tanks becomes impossible without it. BC just doesn't cut it, especially considering that most Assassins won't get to above 4/5 stacks until their burst combo is over. =/

You say that as if Assassins are SUPPOSED to kill tanks. God forbid an Assassin has to think strategically and need to flank or wait for the chaos of a teamfight to get a priority target, no no no, you should be able to blow up anyone.

I wonder how long it'll take for Mages and AP champions to realise that if they run Armour seals and Armour Quints, start cloth 5 and rush a chain vest that we literally won't be able to put a dent in them. You can literally do this, shove hard for the first 3-4ish waves, go B and come back at level 4 with a chain vest and 75-90 armour. Goodbye level 6 burst. The only one that may be able to get through that 80 armour is Zed, but if he does you're just not doing it right...

Bravo, now the mage has no damage to do their job either. You get to continue building damage and can do your job of killing some other squishy by roaming or waiting for mid game while they sunk a bunch of gold into an item that doesn't build into anything they can use and don't have any quints to help their damage...

And before you say it, yes, if you're behind you should build defensively but you're suggesting someone just automatically bow down to the great assassins and cede their lane before the game even starts.

originary912 votes

{quoted}

You say that as if Assassins are SUPPOSED to kill tanks. God forbid an Assassin has to think strategically and need to flank or wait for the chaos of a teamfight to get a priority target, no no no, you should be able to blow up anyone.

Bravo, now the mage has no damage to do their job either. You get to continue building damage and can do your job of killing some other squishy by roaming or waiting for mid game while they sunk a bunch of gold into an item that doesn't build into anything they can use and don't have any quints to help their damage...

And before you say it, yes, if you're behind you should build defensively but you're suggesting someone just automatically bow down to the great assassins and cede their lane before the game even starts.

You act as if Assassins aren't meant to be able to kill mages and ADCs. But wait, it's okay for fed ADCs and Mages to be able to destroy Assassins, but it's not okay for a really fed Assassin to be able to do any damage to a Tank? Wow, the fucking irony. Again, you don't know what you're talking about. I've just given you a sure fire way to win against Assassins. Do you know what I'd do if someone picked an Azir into me and ran the strategy that I just mentioned? I'd fucking cry. That's what. I'd cry and cry and cry some more.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

{quoted}

You act as if Assassins aren't meant to be able to kill mages and ADCs. But wait, it's okay for fed ADCs and Mages to be able to destroy Assassins, but it's not okay for a really fed Assassin to be able to do any damage to a Tank? Wow, the fucking irony.

We're not talking about a fed Assassin, you're talking about buying one item, the old Last Whisper, and being able to kill tanks with that one purchase while not sacrificing anything when it comes to killing squishies. Now if you want to kill that tank with 300 armor you have to accept that you need to itemize for it with something that won't help you kill a squishy damage dealer.

Again, you don't know what you're talking about. I've just given you a sure fire way to win against Assassins. Do you know what I'd do if someone picked an Azir into me and ran the strategy that I just mentioned? I'd fucking cry. That's what. I'd cry and cry and cry some more.

Or you'd laugh at how they've gimped themselves for most of the game while you can just farm without fear of them or roam for kills (Because vision sucks now that we have no green wards).

originary912 votes

{quoted}

We're not talking about a fed Assassin, you're talking about buying one item, the old Last Whisper, and being able to kill tanks with that one purchase while not sacrificing anything when it comes to killing squishies. Now if you want to kill that tank with 300 armor you have to accept that you need to itemize for it with something that won't help you kill a squishy damage dealer.

Or you'd laugh at how they've gimped themselves for most of the game while you can just farm without fear of them or roam for kills (Because vision sucks now that we have no green wards).

But that was never the case, and what you've said proves that you don't know what the fuck you're on about, just like most of Boards when it comes to Assassins??? Old LW let you do damage to tanks yes, but your damage would only be substantial if you were fed. But you don't know shit so you fail to realise this. I could be hella fed, build a cleaver, LW, MAW, Youmou's and every damn armour penetration item in the game, and I'm still not going to be able to touch that tank if they have 300 armour. Do the maths. 300 armour reduced by 35% is going to be 195 armour. Let's say he has 100 base and 200 bonus, that 195 is going to be split into 65 base and 130 bonus. 40% pen (LOL massive gold sink) against bonus armour - 78 bonus armour left. 65 + 78 = 143 armour. Maw = - 10 Youmou's = - 20 Masteries = 14 at level 18 Runes = 19 10 + 20 + 14 + 19 = 63 143 - 63 = 80 armour. Now take into consideration that by the time a Cleaver is full stacked an Assassins burst is over. Then consider the amount of health that tank is going to have. Then consider the fact that I'm going to be less effective against squishy champions, and that Maw should probably be a mercurial. Ok. Now let's drop back to a little earlier in the game. Let's say that I'm at a total of 3ish items while the top lane tank is at 1 and a bit. Let's say he has 70 base armour and an additional 70 from runes masteries and items. Let's say my items are - Youmou's, Tiamat, QSS, Lucids, hell, let's say that I even have a fucking cleaver to boot alright? xD That's 10100 fucking gold right there, as opposed to his what, 3500? 140 armour reduced to 91 by 5 stacks of cleaver. Then to 71 by Youmou's. Then to 52 by runes - extra generous here. Assuming that cleaver was fully stacked before I'd definitely do more than scratch them, I'd probably do 60% of their health . But it's not going to be so I won't be able to, I'll probably do 40% tops, and that's assuming I drop my full damned combo which is a waste. That isn't right. Now imagine he has 6000 gold. Where am I at then? lol.

So what you're saying is that you're too incompetent to harass a melee champion down with bases when all of your spells outrange their early gap closers?? You must really suck.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

{quoted}

But that was never the case, and what you've said proves that you don't know what the fuck you're on about, just like most of Boards when it comes to Assassins??? Old LW let you do damage to tanks yes, but your damage would only be substantial if you were fed. But you don't know shit so you fail to realise this.

Your words not mine.

{quoted}

The new LW is a massive kick in the balls tbh. It's such a waste to pick up because it's inefficient at getting what our role does done - Killing squishies, yet at the same time putting a dent in tanks becomes impossible without it.

An assassin isn't supposed to be able to hurt tanks but you bemoan how you can't chunk then anymore because old Last Whisper is gone now. So sorry that you have to focus on your job of killing high priority squishy targets.

So what you're saying is that you're too incompetent to harass a melee champion down with bases when all of your spells outrange their early gap closers?? You must really suck.

You're a really unpleasant person you know that? And so now you're saying that mages don't need to take your bad advice of gimping all their damage to deal with assassins by rushing chain vest before they even see how the lane goes? Maybe you should cool your head off before talking more about this.

originary911 votes

{quoted}

Your words not mine.

An assassin isn't supposed to be able to hurt tanks but you bemoan how you can't chunk then anymore because old Last Whisper is gone now. So sorry that you have to focus on your job of killing high priority squishy targets.

You're a really unpleasant person you know that? And so now you're saying that mages don't need to take your bad advice of gimping all their damage to deal with assassins by rushing chain vest before they even see how the lane goes? Maybe you should cool your head off before talking more about this.

"An Assassin shouldn't be able to hurt tanks" is your only argument. If you're fed you should be able to hurt anyone as any champion. End of.

SpecterVonBaren3 votes

The counter to being assassinated is building defensively, tanks are meant to soak up damage, a tank building to counter your damage because you're fed so that he doesn't get murdered is what he is supposed to do. It is the counterplay to an assassin and is meant to allow the other team to be able to work together and deal with a fed assassin through proper teamwork.

This is a team game, you don't get to just solo carry if the other team plays right and has a good comp. It's not your job as an assassin to kill the tank, that's the Marksman's job.

originary911 votes

{quoted}

The counter to being assassinated is building defensively, tanks are meant to soak up damage, a tank building to counter your damage because you're fed so that he doesn't get murdered is what he is supposed to do. It is the counterplay to an assassin and is meant to allow the other team to be able to work together and deal with a fed assassin through proper teamwork.

This is a team game, you don't get to just solo carry if the other team plays right and has a good comp. It's not your job as an assassin to kill the tank, that's the Marksman's job.

Except I'll be building damage faster than he can build tank items (Even though they're cheaper) because I'm fed, so I should have the edge. What part of that is so hard to understand?

That's the thing. LoL has shifted too far into the 'Team' aspect that the 'Solo' aspect has diminished to too great of an extent. The 'Team' aspect is great if you're an LCS player or on a Team. The loss of the Solo aspect sucks if you're a player who enjoys SoloQ, because it diminishes the meaning of your successful individual plays. The 'Team' aspect makes it easier for one person to ruin the game by trolling or just playing awfully. The 'Solo' aspect makes it easier for one person to carry a game by playing really well - better than everyone. There needs to be a balanced between the two so that in SoloQ you can win off of your own efforts and individual plays, instead of constantly having to rely on teammates who can be extremely volatile.

However Riot has been continuously shifting play towards the 'Team' aspect, that's why a lot of older players have been quitting in their droves. Splitpushing has become nigh impossible with the introduction of free home guards. Baron has become almost a must, the team who gets it generally wins and it's teams with good team fight comps that get it the most. When was the last time you saw someone genuinely split push for the win? Last time I saw it was in early Season 5, nowadays it's one team fight late game then finish. This is fun for some, but not for everybody, especially not for aggressive players who enjoy pitting themselves against others and having the best player win. No one wants to play a game where it's easier for one person to completely ruin it than to save it.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

{quoted}

Except I'll be building damage faster than he can build tank items (Even though they're cheaper) because I'm fed, so I should have the edge. What part of that is so hard to understand?

There's a reason tank items are cheaper than damage items you know. And most tanks usually have something in their kit that synergizes with and enhances a tanky build like Naut's shield, Malphite's W and innate passives, Rammus's W and E, ect.

That's the thing. LoL has shifted too far into the 'Team' aspect that the 'Solo' aspect has diminished to too great of an extent. The 'Team' aspect is great if you're an LCS player or on a Team. The loss of the Solo aspect sucks if you're a player who enjoys SoloQ, because it diminishes the meaning of your successful individual plays. The 'Team' aspect makes it easier for one person to ruin the game by trolling or just playing awfully. The 'Solo' aspect makes it easier for one person to carry a game by playing really well - better than everyone. There needs to be a balanced between the two so that in SoloQ you can win off of your own efforts and individual plays, instead of constantly having to rely on teammates who can be extremely volatile.

However Riot has been continuously shifting play towards the 'Team' aspect, that's why a lot of older players have been quitting in their droves.

You have any actual proof of this other than your own words?

Splitpushing has become nigh impossible with the introduction of free home guards.

Meanwhile Teleport's cooldown has been nerfed and vision is harder to get so splitpushing is also easier.

Baron has become almost a must, the team who gets it generally wins and it's teams with good team fight comps that get it the most.

How is this any different than before? And it's hardly a must but it has always been a prime objective.

When was the last time you saw someone genuinely split push for the win? Last time I saw it was in early Season 5, nowadays it's one team fight late game then finish. This is fun for some, but not for everybody, especially not for aggressive players who enjoy pitting themselves against others and having the best player win. No one wants to play a game where it's easier for one person to completely ruin it than to save it.

That's the price you pay when a game is focused around being team oriented. When people gel things can be amazing, when they don't, they can be a catastrophe.

Vekkna8 votes

So you're saying mages can gimp themselves for 20 minutes, let the enemy safely free-farm waves, and roam for kills in exchange for hopefully not dying in lane but probably still dying to Zed.

Great idea.

originary912 votes

{quoted}

So you're saying mages can gimp themselves for 20 minutes, let the enemy safely free-farm waves, and roam for kills in exchange for hopefully not dying in lane but probably still dying to Zed.

Great idea.

Except you're not gimped for 20 minutes. You're gimped until you're second back. If you can't second back before 20 minutes then you're obviously doing something wrong. You get to farm safely in lane too and the enemy assassin can't do what he wants to do - kill you. If you're warding properly then he won't be able to kill your bot easily either, you just spam warning pings every time he disappears. It's safe and it lets you get your farm. Then to top it off, once you've got 1-2 items they won't be able to pop you like a grape because you'll have 100ish armour - while they at best will have 56 armour pen, assuming they run armour pen runes, which most don't, so they're more likely to have 36 armour pen. In which case they can't one shot you at all, and it gets even worse as the game goes on and you start grouping.

But I guess you've yet to learn about lane management and warding yet? Huh? Instead you expect to compete with assassins in roaming and 1v1s...lol. So yeah, carry on building full damage and carry on being that guy who feeds every time he comes back to lane post 6. You've yet to realise that if an Assassin can't get fed off of you, and struggles to gank bot because you've constantly got an eye out for his roams, then he's essentially behind - bar none, while you're ahead. When TFs break out you'll be more useful.

Remember that you scoffed at what I said the next time you go 0/5 vs a talon, zed or rengar.

Typical boards. Stfu AD Assassins! Stop crying about Annie/Malz/Liss when for 1350 gold you can buy a QSS!!!! But hey, uh, you know if you change your runes a little and rush a chain vest for 800g you can, well, negate pretty much most of our early-mid game damage...and to top it off Cloth 5 is a viable start unlike Mantle 1. SHUTUP AD ASSASSIN SHITLORD, WHY SHOULD I SINK 800 FREAKING GOLD INTO DEFENSE JUST SO I CAN SURVIVE AGAINST YOU!!! Uhm...okay...enjoy going 0/3 the next time you meet a Talon or Zed then...

Vekkna3 votes

Your premise is flawed because you can't rush armor and farm. Why? Because leveling your skills increases their mana costs, which means the enemy AD will/should shove you to tower, force you to lose CS, and guarantee that you cannot follow roams (whether you ping or not).

So you end up blowing your mana to avoid feeding your turret. And when you need to recall, odds are slim that you'll be able to shove the wave beforehand.

Besides that, it will always be better to build Armguard than Chain Vest. Armguard has AP, builds into a mandatory item, and ends up with the same amount of armor in a couple of waves.

Even leaving mana out of the equation altogether, I can tell you from my experience playing Katarina that Zed and Talon chew through you. At level 6 Kat has 40 base armor, 40 from Armguard, and 9 from runes. 89 armor is nothing to them with a mage-sized health pool. It never ceases to amaze me how much damage shurikens do super early in the game with armor runes and starting cloth.

originary911 votes

{quoted}

Your premise is flawed because you can't rush armor and farm. Why? Because leveling your skills increases their mana costs, which means the enemy AD will/should shove you to tower, force you to lose CS, and guarantee that you cannot follow roams (whether you ping or not).

So you end up blowing your mana to avoid feeding your turret. And when you need to recall, odds are slim that you'll be able to shove the wave beforehand.

Besides that, it will always be better to build Armguard than Chain Vest. Armguard has AP, builds into a mandatory item, and ends up with the same amount of armor in a couple of waves.

Even leaving mana out of the equation altogether, I can tell you from my experience playing Katarina that Zed and Talon chew through you. At level 6 Kat has 40 base armor, 40 from Armguard, and 9 from runes. 89 armor is nothing to them with a mage-sized health pool. It never ceases to amaze me how much damage shurikens do super early in the game with armor runes and starting cloth.

If you're losing to Talon as a level 6 Kat with 90 armour then you suck. ???

Vekkna3 votes

Nice ad hominem.

It's not about "losing" or "sucking." Talon is a top-10 counter to Kat.

The point is that he does a hefty amount of damage in a blink combo before you can blink away. He's not 1-shotting you with that, but it's an easy 1/3+ of your hp and leaves you in a position of having to retreat or die. You're not getting a kill on him unless he dives and eats your ulti. If you get a chain vest + boots instead of armguard, you'll never even poke through his potions.

And by the time you buy a chain vest plus boots, Talon or Zed will have 30.52 armor pen and 20 bonus AD at level 6. So you're neutralizing yourself as a threat while still being quite killable.

originary912 votes

{quoted}

Nice ad hominem.

It's not about "losing" or "sucking." Talon is a top-10 counter to Kat.

The point is that he does a hefty amount of damage in a blink combo before you can blink away. He's not 1-shotting you with that, but it's an easy 1/3+ of your hp and leaves you in a position of having to retreat or die. You're not getting a kill on him unless he dives and eats your ulti. If you get a chain vest + boots instead of armguard, you'll never even poke through his potions.

And by the time you buy a chain vest plus boots, Talon or Zed will have 30.52 armor pen and 20 bonus AD at level 6. So you're neutralizing yourself as a threat while still being quite killable.

You want assassins to be weaker so that you have more room for mistakes. That's what this all comes down to and that's why most people on boards will argue vehemently against them. Assassins punish you for mistakes, and that's why you people hate them. Furthermore you want them to be useless against tanks so that you have even more fallback room when you make a mistake. 'Ok, this enemy assassin did well by killing both the APC and ADC, but who cares, he can't get through our tanks, lol.' That's the basis of this argument. I on the other hand say that Assassins should be able to damage and kill tanks if they're ahead. Not like squishies, no, but tanks shouldn't be invulnerable to fed assassins, this isn't freaking Dota where one thing completely hard counters another, if that were the case I should auto win whenever I pick Talon against a mage.

Cosnirak1 votes

Assassins punish you for not staying under the back half of your turret, or in the case of Zed, being close enough for him to press R. Unless you count "playing a mage" or "not banning all ad assassins" as mistakes it has nothing to do with mistakes.

Bedl44m1 votes

Mmmm no, assassins punish missing skill shots and poor positioning. Similarly junglers punish overly aggressive assassins. It's very balanced

Cosnirak1 votes

Most assassins don't punish you after you miss a skill shot. They dodge your skill shot with a dash or blink. There's a very key difference. Most assassins don't punish you for poor positioning. They gap close, dodge your gap creating skill shot with previously mentioned dash/blink, then turret dive you because turrets are trash and assassin mobility is bananas.

Unfortunately what usually happens when junglers try to punish overly aggressive assassins is that said assassin dashes/blinks away and spams their laugh emote.

"Balance is weakness." Zed

Bedl44m1 votes

If I can gap close to you, your positioning is wrong. Unless I flash at you but hey that's why you have flash too. Cc counters assassins, health and resistances counter them, and safe play style and vision control counter them. And you assume they have a defensive dash or blink to avoid the gank. A skill player baits the blink for the jungler without dying so thar a kill can be made. Yeah it's hard. It's supposed to be. Welcome to league of legends

Cosnirak1 votes

"If I can gap close to you, your positioning is wrong."

My bad, I thought I was supposed to last hit minions for gold. I'll refrain from now on in the presence of the almighty assassin overlords.

"Cc counters assassins"

That's why I counter pick Zed with Annie. It's fun to see them rage. But sometimes I like to play champions without point-click cc.

"health and resistances counter them"

If you're an actual tank sure. If not.... huehuehuehuehue!

"safe play style and vision control counter them"

If only towers actually did damage and weren't made of paper these days. Not that they ever mattered to Zed, Fizz, Diana, Akali, Yasuo... oh fuck it, champions with mobility, including every assassin...

"And you assume they have a defensive dash or blink to avoid the gank."

Because they do.

"A skill player baits the blink for the jungler without dying so thar a kill can be made. Yeah it's hard. It's supposed to be."

The problem is they stop you from farming by just walking at you. If you try to retaliate they dash past your retaliation and you can't retaliate enough afterwards so you lose. So then comes needing your jungler to punish their aggression. Except your jungler doesn't just sit in your bush all day, the enemy has one too, the enemy can ward as well, and several popular assassins have multiple short cd dashes letting them easily survive a gank regardless.

At best you use your one hard cc, they dash out of the way, jg uses theirs (if they even have one), enemy flashes that. Unlike the assassin your damage isn't constant and high enough to kill them by just keeping up by flashing as well. The enemy walks away. Your jg plans to come back before their flash is up so that it'll work next time. Your jg shows up, enemy jg is there too because your plan is super fucking obvious, the enemy now has 2 kills and you have 0, g fucking g.

Vekkna2 votes

That's a whole lot of wrong assumptions crammed into a single post. You skipped past ad hominem and went straight for the straw man. Desperate much?

Look at the statistics. Out of all the AD assassins, exactly 1 is below 50% average win rate. The vast majority are climbing in performance/win stats, including kills and killing sprees. This new item is trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist.

My third most-played champ is Katarina. That's an assassin who doesn't have the benefit of sustained damage from AAs and who does 70% of their combo's damage with an interruptable, immobile channel.

Trust me, I agree that tanks are too hard to kill, and I think it's BS that tanks will almost always kill me before I can kill them (on mage or assassin unless huge snowball). But when AD assassins are already 100% of the assassins sitting over 50% win rate, the solution to tanks being too tanky is not to make it easier for AD assassins to vaporize everything else on the map while simultaneously dumpstering the viability of AP assassins.

Bedl44m1 votes

I agree with this. I think assassins are in a decent spot when it comes to killing anything other than pure tanks.

Bedl44m1 votes

I would like to point out that most kata players that I encounter Rush health against Talon, not armor. Talon is a hard counter to her yes, but like any mage mid, if you stay back and farm under tower while coordinating with jungle ganks the Talon should get nothing from your lane.

Old Man Teeto23 votes

Assassin dagger is however, a damage amp, just a FAR weaker version.

However, Talon and Zed already have minimal difficulty killing their targets, while this might make Khazix or Pantheon more competitive picks, it will push the first two far over their intended strength.

Z469 votes

Zed and Talon already have minimal difficulty killing their targets. Assassin Dagger won't make it any easier, because Zed's ult will likely already guarantee the kill, and Talon will kill his target before it procs.

Hyrum Graff2 votes

{quoted}

Assassin dagger is however, a damage amp, just a FAR weaker version.

You also can't choose NOT to use it, so it's really easy to waste, or as the enemy, to bait, when they can't all-in you.

Kuroi862 votes

To add to...

DFG was removed because it was meant to help take down tanks, but instead because the burst pick for any AP assassin.

The new Assassins dagger is meant to aid in taking down squishy champs and will be largely less effective against tanks with the amount of armor a tank can build.

yay nibbers2 votes

Not to mention assassin's dagger can get wasted simply by auto attacking someone because it's a passive and not an active

Big Lincoln16 votes

DFG could be used on a whim, did % damage and boosted all damage you did to them on top of it

assassin dagger can be baited out or wasted by accident

AP assassins who used it also (generally) have a much better fallback pattern than AD ones, who give up their utility for auto attack damage

Slamurai Jack11 votes

They're not even remotely similar.

Transgressor8 votes

Why was this downvoted? He is correct, DFG amplified your burst, Assassin Dagger is basically a Zed ultimate.

PrinceOfStorms8 votes

I imagine the reason why Assassin's Dagger isn't quite as bad as DFG is because Assassin's Dagger doesn't allow for any control over whom you proc the mark on.

Erockandroll2 votes

{quoted}

I imagine the reason why Assassin's Dagger isn't quite as bad as DFG is because Assassin's Dagger doesn't allow for any control over whom you proc the mark on.

Potentially, your could rework DFG around the same mechanic and it might be okay. (A little unreliability)

However, I suspect that wasn't the only problem with DFG. And I think it had to do with some of the similarities with AP Assassins, and mages. DFG was the only difference between assassin and mage, and many mages who did well with DFG had to be balanced around that, which meant they were balanced as Assassins. Which most of the time wasn't their primary kit. (Veigar, Annie)

JedenVojak7 votes

Assassin Dagger cannot be manually triggered, does not multiply all of your damage by 1.4, triggers on auto attacks, and doesn't do %max health damage.

If anything, the passive looks really weak.

Dat cool kid5 votes

because riot likes assassins more than mages

Pierce The Veal7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dat cool kid,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lw91cUGY,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2015-12-22T02:11:33.828+0000)

because riot likes assassins more than mages

Lol. That's a good one.

Let's see how many items assassins can build this season, shall we?

Ravenous: build path nerfed

Youmuu's: buffed

Last whisper: RIP

Maw of malmortius: down from 65-95 AD to 50

All AD items down in AD.

Hey look at all these crit items!

Truth is everyone everyone but tanks and adcs got fisted. Well, technically supports are better off, but this one class I can't remember is building one of their items and is making a killin off of it. I wonder....

ltmetal4 votes

There are three lessons learned from DFG that Riot is applying right now.

  1. It is very hard to control when Nightfall procs, as opposed to DFG having a targeted nuke on a decently low cooldown.
  2. DFG had a tank buster feature that is absent from this item.
  3. DFG warped itemization options for AP assassins with its catch-all viability and noticeable utility. Assassin dagger does not provide anything except damage, penetration, movespeed, and more damage, meaning that even though ADCs and fighters can use it, they won't have off builds that abuse them, like old DFG facilitating DFGaren or AP Rengar.
Transgressor4 votes

Isn't it an experimental item? Has it been implemented yet? It's not even on the PBE yet. Why the fuss when it's literally non-existant?

Synx74 votes

#Favoritism

Dragonface3 votes

Firm believer if they changed DFG, rather than remove it, they could have easily balanced it.

Take away the damage it deals, or reduce it, or apply it as a DOT, or a number of things. I see why this item can create such a problem though, like Veigar, if you farmed your Q decently well, AND got DFG, you could one-rotation K.O. just about anyone that hasn't stacked a shitload of MR.

The only thing I see this being a major problem on is Nasus. Simply because, imagine Nasus hitting you with his Q, then a short time later, even more damage.

And lastly, Assassin's Dagger I don't believe will be a problem, because as stated, the item honestly isn't going to make any difference in nuking champs that are squishy, as Nightfall won't even have a chance to proc. It's just gives you that little bit of edge against tanks.

Vekkna3 votes

The better question is why do AD assassins need an assassination item when only one AD assassin is below 50% average win rate? Kha'zix is literally the only one. Yi, Shaco, Talon, Wukong, Zed, and Rengar are all sitting between 51-54% WR and have all climbed in performance and win rankings this patch.

The next logical question is why we need to bump Talon from 54-60% WR and Zed from 52-58% WR just to get Kha'zix out of the bracket where Syndra and Cassio have been rotting for months.

And the last question is...what the hell are they thinking?

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