Spell vamp sucks on any mage that doesn't abuse it, let's fix that.

OyddAWqJ5r··82 votes·4,500 views

Spell vamp has always been something that's been hard to make available to all the mages that want to utilize it due to some abusing it far better than others. And while typically having best and worst use cases is a standard trait in champion + item combinations, spell vamp by nature will always have extreme outliers and need to be balanced around those (aka undertuned for everyone else). This is due to the vast variations of spells and spell rotations in each individual champion.

Therefore in order for spellvamp to be a balanced stat for all mages it'd need to be something they can all equally access.

The point of this is to make reaching maximum efficiency with spell vamp a possibility with all mages while at the same time limiting the abuse cases of it. By limiting abuse cases, we can buff the hell out of it for everyone else.

and with that I present the #Spell Vamp Cap

By capping spell vamp we can actually buff it. Why? Because by removing the possibility to abuse it we can make it as powerful as we want it to be. So basically the plan is to

#Set a Limit to Raise the Base

This is the definition of equal access. Setting this limit opens up access to not just champions, but even the creation of more spell vamp items.

Just as it sounds this would be a flat number ie. 50 that represents the max amount you can spell vamp. However it would run on a "per 5" system where 20% of the cap is refreshed every second to 100% at 5 seconds. In this case it would be +10 spell vamp cap per second or +50 per 5.

Oh and another key thing is that the current "max" spell vamp amount will be shown as a dynamic number on the buff bar that changes every time it is procced or charged. It could even change color or have a sort of "filling" animation to show how much of it is available. So readability and complexity shouldn't be an issue at all.

Each spell vamp item would have both spell vamp and spell vamp cap as passives.

And remember how I said we could buff spell vamp by putting a limit on it? I don't mean +5% or +15%. No what I mean is:

Spell Vamp: this will always be set at 50% on every spell vamp item (or 25% with doubled effect vs champions). It will be a unique, non-stackable passive.

Spell Vamp Cap: the upper limit of how much you can spell vamp in a single second. This amount recharges 20% of the cap every second, reaching max at 5 seconds (probably more like 10% per 0.5 seconds). This stat is unique but not named and thus is stackable via different spell vamp items. (it could be stackable, tbd). This cap will be both a flat and "per level" AP scaling stat on each spell vamp item, increasing naturally with AP as the game progresses. An item could exist for this as well that allows the cap to be increased by 100% but also increases the time to max by 100% (so 200% cap per 10).

Here's how Hextech Revolver whatever the new spellvamp line would be called could look:

Old: item 3145 +40 AP Unique Passive: +12% spell vamp

New: item 3145 +40 AP Unique Passive: Increases spell vamp cap by 30 (+0.4 AP). Unique Passive - Spell Vamp: Your spells heal you for 25% of the damage they deal. (Doubled vs champions, 33% effectiveness for AoE spells).

Also don't worry about how this affects Vladimir, he's about to be reworked anyway in the MYMU specifically because of how he single-handedly skews the spell vamp system.

None of the numbers posted in this are absolute either but rather are just there to fill in the blanks.

Thoughts?

111 Comments

LostFr0st6 votes

They are also already reworking spellvamp in the MYMU.

OyddAWqJ5r4 votes

They have never said this. They said they will be making it stronger so more mages can use it once they rework Vladimir so it's not as abusive on him.

I'll link the few times they've mentioned it.

{quoted}

This has been the big question for me since I first heard about these reworks. Spellvamp should be a viable option for any sustained damage mage, but isn't because Vladimir exists. Is it possible these changes will put Vlad in a state that spellvamp can be viably bought on more than two champions?

[{quoted}](name=Riot Stashu,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=OJQBsbEM,comment-id=000a0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-04T23:43:14.911+0000)

That's 100% the plan.

{quoted}

What are your directions with spell vamp and his spellvamp afinity since you pointed "stat afinity"?

[{quoted}](name=Riot Stashu,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=OJQBsbEM,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2016-03-04T23:18:56.152+0000)

Oh boy... this is the thing of my nightmares at the moment. I love that Vlad is 'the spellvamp guy.' It's very thematic and is pretty unique to him. But...

It's tough to make a damaging ability with a health cost when spell vamp exists, as the healthcost quickly fades to irrelevance (especially AoE spells in minion waves!) That said, we do not want to remove spellvamp, and we want Vlad's spells to do damage and cost health, so we're going to have to find some clever solutions here.

Currently, for example, we're exploring reducing vamp's effectiveness on minions, but this is just one of the many stabs we're taking at trying to get these things to coexist.

Paladin 0f Life1 votes

why not just make him use energy?

OyddAWqJ5r6 votes

Vlad? Idk. But they are doing a big rework for him. Hard to explain it all but look up the MYMU and Vlad to see all the planned changes. Someone posted a summary of it in the Gameplay Boards.

OyddAWqJ5r6 votes

Lol this was downvoted for... reasons?

Lmao whoever just made it -1 now u smartass xD

Jeddy0172 votes

{quoted}

We'll be looking to adjust CDR, Mana and MP5 on AP items as our primary focus, with some potential side changes to things like the Revolver/WotA/Gunblade line. Overall scope of item changes will almost certainly be noticeably smaller than the preseason so this will be much more about adjustments to existing items than adding new ones.

Spell Vamp will likely be looked at during the MYMU.

CrimsonCobra35 votes

What's the MYMU?

OyddAWqJ5r8 votes

Mid-year Mage Update

Krinu4 votes

How about this?

"Spell Vamp: Spells cast against enemy champions heal you for X% of the damage dealt. Killing a minion or neutral monster heals you for Y% of your AP."

OyddAWqJ5r3 votes

That second part definitely works. Could see it happening. If it weren't for the sake of not overloading the tooltip I'd even completely agree.

Mhihnj3 votes

Veigar would abuse spell vamp due to all the raw damage his ult deals. At least over 1000 damage and that is just 500 ap. Also, his w

OyddAWqJ5r15 votes

Did you read the OP at all? Lmao.

Mhihnj27 votes

of course i didn't

OyddAWqJ5r9 votes

Well played friend haha

FastAsHeck8 votes

{quoted}

of course i didn't

boards in a nutshell

Teridax683 votes

I like this idea. With a hard cap I think you could even have a higher damage-to healing ratio, and I think that could go a long way towards making spell vamp an attractive stat for most mages, particularly bursty ones. However, I think you might need an alternative for DPS magic damage dealers, including Vlad but also champions like Cassiopeia, Cho'Gath, Fiddlesticks, Mordekaiser, Rumble, Swain, maybe even Aurelion Sol, who might not want to run along the same rules as burst mages: a DPS mage, for example, might want healing closer to life steal, where they wouldn't heal for amazing amounts per second, but would have far fewer limitations to their healing over time. For example, instead of the WotA example you bring up in the comments, you could have it use Hextech Revolver's passive to heal for up to X (+ Y per level) per instance of damage, and remove the per-second cap. In that case, though, you might want to make spell vamp non-stackable for sure, and I personally think damage-to-healing shouldn't be stackable in general.

OyddAWqJ5r3 votes

...how did you even see that? I thought I deleted it.

And my initial reasoning behind the spell vamp stacking was to have it available as an option since an opponent with 2 spell vamp items is far less scary than the Rabadons+Rylais guy.

item 3020 item 3027 item 3157 item 3089 item 3116 item 3135 > item 3020 item 3027 item 3157 item 3135 item 3152 item 3152

But it could be viable. But you know what I mean? Like I was thinking it could be viable but in no way would it be better. But I scrapped it cuz I felt like that could just reopen abuse cases.

Also yeah, another spell vamp option should exist and WotA should be reworked. Or just WotA. Idk.

Teridax683 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sleeper Cell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lpbNLbs5,comment-id=00140000,timestamp=2016-03-21T10:23:30.847+0000)

...how did you even see that? I thought I deleted it.

Black magics I took a look at your post a while back and saw your comment before it got deleted. I probably should've made that reply then.

[{quoted}](name=Sleeper Cell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lpbNLbs5,comment-id=00140000,timestamp=2016-03-21T10:23:30.847+0000)

And my initial reasoning behind the spell vamp stacking was to have it available as an option since an opponent with 2 spell vamp items is far less scary than the Rabadons+Rylais guy.

item 3020 item 3027 item 3157 item 3089 item 3116 item 3135 > item 3020 item 3027 item 3157 item 3135 item 3152 item 3152

But it could be viable. But you know what I mean? Like I was thinking it could be viable but in no way would it be better. But I scrapped it cuz I felt like that could just reopen abuse cases.

I know exactly what you mean. If it's harmless and not particularly liable to cause problems, then there's no use in forcing players to play by the fantasy you, the designer, have set, when they'll most likely opt into it because it's naturally more viable and/or fun, but if there does happen to be abuse potential, it's better to make sure that doesn't happen than to design around potential exploits for the sake of freedom of choice.

[{quoted}](name=Sleeper Cell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lpbNLbs5,comment-id=00140000,timestamp=2016-03-21T10:23:30.847+0000)

Also yeah, another spell vamp option should exist and WotA should be reworked. Or just WotA. Idk.

This might be a bit of a plug, but I did a blog post on the LoLWiki a while back on spell vamp as well (also physical vamp before, though I removed that bit once Death's Dance got released), and we basically share the same opinion on how spell vamp should fundamentally play out (i.e. Hextech Revolver should have a sustain "reservoir" that caps healing every few seconds). The reasoning after that was that, after the basic, one-size-fits-all model for laning, where sustain of any kind should be relatively scarce, spell vamp should split into two options, one for burst champions (i.e. Hextech Gunblade, though tweaked a bit, for burst mages and assassins to quickly fill up during critical moments), and one for DPS champions (WotA, which takes Revolver's healing and makes it cap per instance of damage, rather than per second). Ideally, there should be a clear enough separation that most AP champions would be able to grok which of either option would fit their champion best, with some potentially interesting choices to be made depending on build variation and enemy setup (e.g. bruiser Diana might want WotA whereas full AP Diana might want Gunblade instead).

OyddAWqJ5r3 votes

{quoted}

The reasoning after that was that, after the basic, one-size-fits-all model for laning, where sustain of any kind should be relatively scarce, spell vamp should split into two options, one for burst champions (i.e. Hextech Gunblade, though tweaked a bit, for burst mages and assassins to quickly fill up during critical moments), and one for DPS champions (WotA, which takes Revolver's healing and makes it cap per instance of damage, rather than per second). Ideally, there should be a clear enough separation that most AP champions would be able to grok which of either option would fit their champion best, with some potentially interesting choices to be made depending on build variation and enemy setup (e.g. bruiser Diana might want WotA whereas full AP Diana might want Gunblade instead).

That's exactly what I was thinking too. I can't imagine a single item seeing equal benefit on both Burst and Sustained. There has to be a separation to that end. Ofcourse the end result is probably going to come out where some or many champions can buy either (kinda like T.Hydra vs R.Hydra) but as long as both are balanced and viable options then there's really no issue.

Also I was thinking Gunblade should stay as is. It falls into the hybrid/AD side of things in my opinion.

I just now read that whole post. The whole making it based off your bonus AP (and level) seems like a viable option as well. Hopefully Riot tries all 3 of the big spell vamp ideas that have been posted so far (spell vamp cap, scaling off AP, individual skill ratios). They all seem like viable options for revamping the system. I can't even really tell which one seems like the most radical change.

Teridax683 votes

Out of the three options, I'd say per-spell vamp ratios would be the least likely to get implemented, if only because Riot mentioned not wanting to do that a while back due to the massive burden of knowledge it would add to a mechanic only a relatively small portion of champions would want to opt into. I also think the common argument of how spells themselves can't be balanced around fixed 100% or 33% AP ratios doesn't hold water, because spell vamp is based on those very spells, which all have variable ratios and bases (in fact, it's that variability, plus cooldowns, that causes spell vamp to be as difficult to balance as it is now).

I also think we both have essentially the same model for spell vamp, give or take an AP ratio. The reason I added one was mainly to spread out scaling across items and reduce sustain at early levels (getting a Hextech Revolver alone would heal for less, as would either upgrade, but then you'd boost that through further AP purchases, which would mostly happen after the laning phase), but the advantage to a hard, per-level cap, with no AP ratio, is that it prevents potential abuse cases where champions who stack the most AP, and therefore who tend to be the most squishy, also get overly high sustain relative to champions with tanky AP builds, who should be more durable. Ultimately, this is a difference that would have to be verified through testing, though the gameplay our mechanic would bring wouldn't fundamentally change.

As for Gunblade, while I do think there are valid reasons to make it full AP (I really hate AD/AP hybrid items), you're right that its current identity is firmly entrenched in catering to champions with hybrid scalings, and I should have probably made up an entirely different item altogether for bursty spell vamp. Though I personally want to get rid of hybrid AD/AP stats on items altogether, it might be interesting to consider how the above spell vamp model could apply to Gunblade as a true hybrid sustain item: it's used on bursty and DPS-heavy champions alike, and it would be interesting to have that translate to the above sustain model, where the item's spell vamp reservoir could interact with its life steal to provide fair amounts of bursty and continuous healing.

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

Gunblade: I guess it wouldn't hurt to try. Riot can do those sorts of things. It's definitely alot more drastic than changing mage spell vamp item(s). I mean currently only AP's use it. Jax stopped a long time ago. It's just a big maybe though.

And I just came up with another idea based off your idea. Making the cap scale with AP instead of level. It's the perfect solution honestly (I think). At first I kinda wanted to stay away from adding base level scaling because tanks or AP bruisers could end up breaking this new version of spell vamp. The 50% thing definitely wouldn't be okay on people like Rumble who can deal tons of magic damage with defensive AP items while tanking quite a bit of damage. We all know base numbers work best on tanks anyway. So to further solidify it for mages I think an AP ratio for the cap definitely fits.

With proper balancing to it it can still be balanced in the same, cap-limiting way. Hell, this could finally put more of an upside to Cass's "late game scaling" where she deals metric tons of damage but can't live more than 0.1 second to get any off. Plus then the per level is removed and mages can be rewarded for taking the riskier route of being squishier but with spell vamp.

Only problem I can see is overtuning to where item 3152 item 3020 item 3157 item 3027 item 3116 item 3001 becomes the optimal "heal tons and never die" build. But I guess that's why I say "with proper balancing".

Edit: Oh and it would also free up the stat binding involved with it--allowing any stat to be paired with spell vamp without making it a good pickup for tanks or AD's (not that AD's were ever a big concern). Already added it to the OP.

Edit Edit: Also cleaned up the OP and added big bold letters and stuff. I personally think it looks pretty cool :P

Edit Edit Edit: And it's nice to see an active member from the days of the old forums. Nowadays I really only see Bass now and then. Maybe people changed names? Idk.

Bobloser35552 votes

Then spellvamp would be useless in fights, it would only be useful for lane sustain in which case you can just give mages more health regeneration. I don't see the point.

OyddAWqJ5r6 votes

Trust me, noone said the limit would be minuscule like 10 health. It'll be significant enough to be that one item that you reaaally wanna buy even though you should probably be buying Zhonyas.

What it won't be is 2k healing in 1 second like current Vlad does. That's what this is limiting: abuse cases. By limiting abuse cases we can then toss some extreme buffs on it to raise the worst case uses. So the champs that benefit almost nothing from spell vamp will be seeing a huge increase in efficiency with this due to how Riot can straight buff the heck out of this without making it overpowered because they can literally set a limit on how abusive it can get.

The vampiric effect is massively increased so everyone can potentially reach that maximum limit but noone can go beyond it into crazy dumb abuse case territory.

Changed the bolded "main point" text in the OP to better clarify the purpose of adding a cap.

Bobloser35553 votes

Well I use spellvamp on Cassio also to be tankier in a fight, for example if I deal 2000 damage in a fight with 15% spellvamp I heal ~300 health (a bit less since aoe only heals for 1/3) so its as if I had 300 health extra. If there is a limit of 50 health per 5 seconds I would not use it anymore, it wouldn't be worth it.

OyddAWqJ5r5 votes

If the limit was that low I wouldn't either. The limit on a finalized spell vamp item (2500+ gold item) will most likely be anywhere from 150-400 based on level.

Like I said, the heal will be anything but minuscule. It's simply the abuse cases that are being limited here. And there are 3 plus sides to using this on Cass:

  1. With 50% spell vamp available on every item combined with Cass's single target E's, this effect will probably reach the cap with only 2 casts of E.
  2. Each cast of E will proc the vamp constantly so you'll be reaching max possible benefit.
  3. Once the target escapes if it is still poisoned you'll still be getting healed for 1-2 seconds due to the cap regenerating each half second.
Bobloser35551 votes

It sounds like it would make some mages lane sustain op, Cassio, Annie, Anivia etc...sorry I cant see it working, it would create more imbalances. I have 6% Spellvamp (Quints) when I go into a game, and I can, against most defensive opponents or tanks stay in lane indefinitely. With your suggestion the heal from minion waves would be too strong.

OyddAWqJ5r6 votes

Can't sustain when you're bursted to death. That's the problem with rushing it. Also the healing vs minions is specifically reduced by half and the AoE is additionally reduced to 33% effectiveness.

So you're telling me that Anivia's ult will be OP as hell healing with 4.125% healing on its damage? With her base health and resistances? Same goes for the other examples.

Also how are you judging whether concepts are broken or not based on theoretical numbers? Do note that the whole purpose is to limit abuse. If the number is too high guess what Riot can do? Lower it.

A claim like that is similar to how everyone was saying Fiora's rework was a complete failure as a concept at first release due to her low numbers. There were claims that such a concept could never be strong. But when Riot buffs the numbers all the sudden people say it's far too strong and overpowered and that such a concept should never exist.

Seriously, numbers can be tuned. The important thing is the instatement of the spell vamp cap. The healing amount can be lowered should it be too much. In fact, I haven't even given a definite healing amount; I gave you 150-400. Do you seriously think 150 is better than Cass full combo 20% spell vamp?

Conceptual number-absent balance is unaffected by theoretical number implementations. So quit claiming "overtuned imbalance" when number tuning hasn't even begun. It makes no sense.

triggered

Edit: Just noticed this:

Post 1, "I don't see the point." Post 2, "Way too weak." Post 3, "Way too strong."

Boy are you just dedicated to opposing me? Lmao what the actual hell man.

Bobloser35551 votes

The problem with this is that you still cannot balance out the difference between the mages that can heal off minions and those who cannot. The only thing your idea does is put a limit on how much you can heal and you make it way more complicated than it has to be. Also in a fight the burst mages will still be at a disadvantage using spellvamp since you pretty much do your full combo immediatly and may not even have lost any health yet, so what use will all that spell vamp be if you're still at full health? Thats why spell vamp will only be efficient on damage over time mages like Swain, Ryze, Cass, Anivia and maybe some tanks like ap Malph.

OyddAWqJ5r3 votes

-_-

Please just read the OP. Lmao. I haven't said a single thing to you yet that wasn't in the OP.

But I'll entertain it once more.

Minion healing too strong? Cool, theoretically no more minion healing. Bam. Done. Next.

All my idea does is limit healing and make it so complicated?

Well 1) Old Hextech: 12% Vamp. New Hextech: 50% Vamp (tbd). The limit? UNDEFINED. How many times now have I had to say it? The limit is undefined at the moment. The exact number is unknown so there is NO WAY you can claim that the limit is too low or too high or even balanced. Because there IS NO NUMBER YET.

AND 2)!!!!!! There's a big pretty number over the buff bar that says, "Hey man with varying intelligence of anywhere between 6th grade to college, here's a big ol' number to remind you how much you can heal right now! You can thank me later!" How.is.this.complicated? How? HOW?!

In a fight burst mages are at a disadvantage cuz they get the full effect when they are at max HP? I don't recall mentioning that you could overheal and waste the spell vamp. So for the sake of this concept: YOU CANNOT OVERHEAL AND WASTE SPELL VAMP. We good? Good.

I do sincerely hope that you refer all further questions to ctrl+f or a quick scan of the OP. Or hey, you could even read it if you want.

Also as much as I love theoretical questions please don't ask me ones that you most likely know the answer to (I hope). Things like "Hey! This undefined number could theoretically be imbalanced!" Well hey there buddy! I really don't care cuz what you're concerning about doesn't exist! :D

Read the OP THEN give feedback about the OP. Please. It's all I ask.

Bobloser35551 votes

I did read the OP more or less, you're basically saying an item has a spell vamp cap but I think this makes the game more complicated and it feels clumsy. Like "ok I just healed for 35hp now its says I can heal for 65hp in the next 5 seconds".

I am not trying to bad mouth your idea I think you're getting me wrong, that's not my intention. I just present you with my reasoning why your idea is not feasable in my eyes.

There are so many burst mages that the number of spell vamp users will still be limited, because after a full rotation of spells they are all on cooldown and the enemy damage may still be coming in. Or they killed the enemy in one rotation and the spell vamp had little or no effect.

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

I did read the OP more or less, you're basically saying an item has a spell vamp cap but I think this makes the game more complicated and it feels clumsy. Like "ok I just healed for 35hp now its says I can heal for 65hp in the next 5 seconds".

I didn't think readability was clumsy. Guess item 3087 item 3094 item 3742 item 3053 item 1083 summoner 11 are all clumsy cuz they have easily readable numbers on the buff bar. Oh man what a dilemma.

There are so many burst mages that the number of spell vamp users will still be limited, because after a full rotation of spells they are all on cooldown and the enemy damage may still be coming in.

Spells on cooldown. You can't spell vamp. 5 seconds isn't that long. Your own fault for using everything all at once. Decision making. Counterplay. Blah blah.

Could you just replace the word spell vamp with "spells"? "Spells will be unavailable while spells are on cooldown." = "Spell vamp will be unavailable while spells are on cooldown." It works, trust me. You can avoid many of these self-answering points this way.

Or they killed the enemy in one rotation and the spell vamp had little or no effect.

AD's don't care if they have 100% lifesteal but kill everything. Oh well. Enemy is dead. If they were alive you'd be more alive with spell vamp.

Edit: WAIT A FRIKKIN SECOND!!!

I did read the OP more or less

I'm so done. Tilted. Feeding. Afk. GG surrender at 20.

Elikain2 votes

Well, you could pair your max Spell Vamp with Windspeaker's Blessing and Runic Armor + Spirit Visage and then we'd have an abuse case? But right now, the only ones i can think of that can use this combination even remotely effectively are probably just VladimirMordekaiser .

But what i'd really like to make a comeback is Ahri MordekaiserKatarina with a item 3152 . If you're a scrappy champion, i don't see why healing post-skirmish should be excluded. At least this way, skirmishes are less punishable and melee champs can take advantage of it to regain health and try again.

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

I mean you could. Whether or not it truly turns out to be abusive or not determines the fate of the interaction with those effects. Because Riot could easily make it so that you cannot heal more than the cap no matter what. So basically Windspeaker's, Runic and Spirit Visage would simply serve to hit the cap faster rather than increase the max possible healing.

I hope for the former though. Those synergies should be left intact in my opinion but if it really turns out to be abusive then the latter can always be implemented.

Saianna2 votes

I'd add some "charging" like in item 3087 case, where you can life-steal once and then you'd have to recharge it again. Simply because some mages have waaaay too high burst which would make them 1->100 with 1 spell rotation.

Ofc that is for some really strong spell vamp item, if there will be one.

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

I think you may be contradicting yourself here.

  1. Add charge so spell vamp won't be extremely abusive and spammable (aka make it a burst heal)
  2. So that burst mages can't burst heal in 1 rotation

...so add a burst heal function to limit burst healing functionality? Haha

If you meant "add an item that allows you to double the spell vamp cap but have a higher charge time" then that's entirely a possibility.

Saianna2 votes

...so add a burst heal function to limit burst healing functionality? Haha

I just don't think burst mages should be enabled to use their whole burst for spellvamp, while other mages with low burst potential can't do anything with spell vamp.

I'd prefer spellvamp stat to work for everyone on equal grounds. Burst and non-burst champions could use the same pellvamp for 1 spell every charge-up. And that way this spell could have some higher stats like even 60% spell vamp.


We just look at the problem from 2 different angles.

You try to make a max-roof limit for spellvamp

While I try to change the base (floor) of it.

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

Haha then I was actually thinking along the same lines when making this. Having different items that skew the base effects of this system are a definite possibility to suit different types of mages. Whether or not every type should have access to it is uncertain though.

EDIT: This post no longer makes any relevant sense to the post it is replying to because he completely edited and rewrote his post into something else. Now I just kinda look silly.

Edit: he fixed it yay

Champion Skin3 votes

Well even if you give burst mages the possibility of using spell vamp... most probably wouldn't be interested as they would probably almost always rather build more damage/burst And Zhonyas would probably be a better defensive item or maybe QSS or banshee or GA depending on the situation A burst mage generally want to have enough damage to kill the target and enough safety to get to the target and get out without dying And I don't think that spell vamp generally works well with that (though it might be nice on ARAM XD)

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

Exactly. Diversity in item choice is the goal here. Forcing spell vamp on everyone is not the intent of this post. Rather presenting it as an option is the intent.

Burst mages should build burst--it seems to be the obvious choice. Should a burst mage for some reason want to tap into spell vamp though they should have a viable outlet in which to do so.

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

Huh... This doesn't look at all like what I replied to an hour ago. You edited it huh? Just comment again next time so I can reply (if you want me to anyway).

I think you mistake my intentions here. I look at the problem from 2 angles directed towards a single point, balance. I look from the highest angle and lower it to meet the center point by putting a cap on spell vamp. I then look from the lowest angle and raise it to meet the center point by massively increasing the spell vamp % to where nearly anyone that deals consistent DPS can cap out.

This is in my opinion the best way to make them stand on equal grounds. Burst mages exhaust the cap in the first second, having only 20%/40%/60%/80% for the next 1/2/3/4 seconds whereas a DPS mage could use a skill and eat up around 50% of it, leaving the other 50% that then becomes 70%/90% over the next 2 seconds but then unloads some more skills for another 50% leaving the remaining 40% that then becomes 60%/80% over the next 2 seconds then shoots another for another 50% etc.

^ Hopefully that clears it up.

Also:

[{quoted}](name=Sleeper Cell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lpbNLbs5,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-03-20T03:13:03.499+0000)

The point of this is to make reaching maximum efficiency with spell vamp a possibility with all mages while at the same time limiting the abuse cases of it. By limiting abuse cases, we can buff the hell out of it for everyone else.

This is what I meant by this in the OP.

Saianna3 votes

Yea, I did edit it like in 1 minute after making my post :)

Anyways, ANY change to spellvamp is a GOOD change (as long as it isn't removing it completely).

Elikain1 votes

Vladimir is not about get get a rework, he's getting an update. There's a difference.


Spell Vamp has already been buffed to:

UNIQUE: Abilities instantly heal for 15% of raw damage dealt, including physical, magical and true damage. Area of effect abilities only heal 5% for every unit affected.

Raw damage implies the damage calculated before the resistances so it's not based on how a tanky your target is.

And the whole point about Spell Vamp is how narrow it's usage is. Sustaining through spells is basically only wanted for champions like Vlad as he himself is a sustain type champion. LeBlanc or Syndra, for example, aren't buying these items as they want more kill potential than sustain as they are rather squishy. Spell Vamp doesn't prevent getting bursted and it doesn't really counter anything if you're not at least tanky to a certain degree.

Now let's talk about their complete opposites: Bloodthirster and Death's Dance. Bloodthirster is getting picked up by ADCs and it has a high point than just a Lifesteal component - Overhealing you to grant a shield, which prevents damage and sustaining you if you survive.

Death's Dance is an anti-assassin item that makes you bleed out to death ( making the enemy to have to overkill you), potentially giving you a 3 second time frame to return fire in an engage and it also grants 15% heal on all physical damage dealt.

As you see, Spell Vamp items offer nothing special in return. It is a useful stat but the package it comes in is rather mediocre at best and there are way better items to invest your gold in, like simply getting more resistances or HP, along with AP to not be squishy in the first place. #Spell Vamp is useful but redundant.

I'm personally waiting for MYMU because Meddler said:

{quoted}

We'll be looking to adjust CDR, Mana and MP5 on AP items as our primary focus, with some potential side changes to things like the Revolver/WotA/Gunblade line. Overall scope of item changes will almost certainly be noticeably smaller than the preseason so this will be much more about adjustments to existing items than adding new ones.

and

{quoted}

There's a lack of CDR options for mages, forcing those that want to hit 40% CDR into some pretty limited build paths. We're also looking into the possibility of making mana more of a mage stat and MP5 more of a support stat, which amongst other things gives us a lever to tailor items more to particular classes.

These changes seem to target the pain points of mage items right now; CD being pretty limited, Spell Vamp not being sought out and Morellonomicon maybe being available as a support purchase? I am so up for MP5 being a support stat and mana becoming a mage stat.

OyddAWqJ5r4 votes

Vladimir is not about get get a rework, he's getting an update. There's a difference.

His Q is being reworked to act differently. His W is being reworked to act differently. His E and R are being completely reworked. So... is it not safe to call it a rework? The Mid-year Mage Update is an update to mages sure, but it's an update through various reworking of how spells work. And they call these individual small-scale reworks "updates" but if they are changing things on those "updates" then they are in fact reworking them. Note:

http://i.imgur.com/dHbrYTR.png

Lmao the definition even states that a rework is a change made to something, especially to make it more up to date.

Spell Vamp has already been buffed to:

UNIQUE: Abilities instantly heal for 15% of raw damage dealt, including physical, magical and true damage. Area of effect abilities only heal 5% for every unit affected.

Raw damage implies the damage calculated before the resistances so it's not based on how a tanky your target is.

Straight buffing a broken mechanic with many abuse cases doesn't magically remove the abuse cases. If anything, it makes them worse. Ofcourse spell vamp is so weak that the only abuse cases are the few that actually completely rely on it. But should it be buffed to a reasonable level for other mages it would undoubtedly be abusive as hell on the best case uses.

What I'm suggesting is in no way meant to be a blanket buff for every mage. It's a nerf to the few abuse cases and a buff to every other case.

And the whole point about Spell Vamp is how narrow it's usage is. Sustaining through spells is basically only wanted for champions like Vlad as he himself is a sustain type champion. LeBlanc or Syndra, for example, aren't buying these items as they want more kill potential than sustain as they are rather squishy. Spell Vamp doesn't prevent getting bursted and it doesn't really counter anything if you're not at least tanky to a certain degree.

Being narrow isn't a point of spell vamp but rather a side effect of what happens when a broken mechanic is abused. It forced spell vamp into a corner where it couldn't even function as a niche. Hell, even the champion it's best on by far can forgo it first for Rylais instead and still get relatively the same durability if not better in lane. The reason noone else buys spell vamp has nothing to do with niche--it's simply too weak to even consider. If it was truly a niche then mages would buy it in the situations where they are being put in drawn out fights where spell vamp would be best utilized. Sadly right now it is NEVER useful.

Now let's talk about their complete opposites: Bloodthirster and Death's Dance. Bloodthirster is getting picked up by ADCs and it has a high point than just a Lifesteal component - Overhealing you to grant a shield, which prevents damage and sustaining you if you survive.

Death's Dance is an anti-assassin item that makes you bleed out to death ( making the enemy to have to overkill you), potentially giving you a 3 second time frame to return fire in an engage and it also grants 15% heal on all physical damage dealt.

As you see, Spell Vamp items offer nothing special in return. It is a useful stat but the package it comes in is rather mediocre at best and there are way better items to invest your gold in, like simply getting more resistances or HP, along with AP to not be squishy in the first place. #Spell Vamp is useful but redundant.

Those are special additional passives to lifesteal. WotA lets you ignore resistances. There is no lifesteal item that does that. But we can't compare anymore because only WotA really exists for mages.

#Spell Vamp is a completely unexplored mechanic due to the abuse cases that pushed it into the corner it's in.

Elikain1 votes

MYMU is called an update because they are updating champions. Rework and an update are not the same things.

Update is a change on a smaller scale, and that's why Riot is making an update pass for 6 champions within a class at a time and probably minor changes to stats on more mages. You already have a reference for the update at hand - Marksmen. Miss Fortune didn't get anything new, she got a new model and updated skills. And 5 other champions got an update as well and other Marksmen received stat checks or slight mechanic changes.

Reworks are much larger in scale and involve art, skills, lore and model, gameplay updates. Fiora/Shen/Poppy/Sion level reworks are what you're looking at here. They can manage one at a time because it is a rework.

Death's Dance is literally the AD version of WotA. And the item is seeing more use than WotA on Graves only? And on occasion i'm seeing this on Zed as well.

What were the abuse cases with Spell Vamp you're talking about? There hasn't been a meta revolving around mages being way too strong because they have gotten a crap ton of Spell Vamp, i'll tell you that. There are literally only 2 items that offer Spell Vamp - WotA and Gunblade. WotA being the only one for mages to use. Burst Mages were never investing in Spell Vamp, the only users of this stat were pre-rework Morde and Vladimir. Oh, and Akali and Katarina. But Akali was broken in that sense that her passive already has been giving her Lifesteal and Spell Vamp and on top of being a single target, manaless, low CD, full AP assassin - i think you understand why her case was problematic to deal with. Katarina was just surviving the early game harassment this way, it wasn't really broken. Morde was using this item to offset his health costs.

Akali has gotten nerfed because of the said problem (her play pattern was not healthy). Morde has gotten reworked in the meantime. Katarina has better options. There's just Vlad left. With the problem cases dealt with, Spell Vamp has been buffed but it still hasn't caught on. Why? Because there are way better options than investing in that stat. Buying MR/AP or HP/AP/MP is way more efficient as it doesn't require of you to be active in order to benefit from health return, you can just take more damage. Every other AP champ is just happier with more AP. As a stat, they wouldn't mind getting spell vamp but the Mastery is way too weak by itself and Runes don't make up for an early 15 raw AP loss. They wouldn't mind getting spell vamp if WotA wasn't so one dimensional.

#MYMU plans to address this issue.

How? I don't know. Probably in a way that it can find it's way on more mages or at least a few supports that lack sustain. That is my hope at least. And Vlad getting an update will probably fix his need for steal as well.

OyddAWqJ5r3 votes

Rework and an update are not the same things.

http://i.imgur.com/dHbrYTR.png

Do you remember the Morde "rework"? Yeah, now that was a gameplay update. As major as it was all that changed was Q became a 3 hit and W could heal. And he got a dragon. But they called it a rework. Vlad's update is both by definition a rework and by Riot's standards for reworks a rework.

Elikain1 votes

You're basically arguing about semantics and went as far as to google it - while you should be looking at Riot's definition of a rework and an update since they defined the term based on the scope of work it requires.

Updates - usually in class updates, usually 6 champs at once slated for changes and may go as far as changing 1-2 abilities max. Rarely a new model - which Miss Fortune and Quinn (Valor) required but their abilities didn't change.

Class updates to date - Juggernaught and Marksman. Juggernaught and Marksman update - the key word "UPDATE" http://na.leagueoflegends.com/na/site/2016-season-update/preseason.html

Reworks - major kit changes/full kit changes, model updates, art update, gameplay update, lore update. All of these. Riot can only do one champion at a time if doing a rework - Sion/Poppy/Shen/Fiora are examples of reworks.


Good thing we cleared this thing up but you completely ignored the rest of the comment which was the point of your thread, right? I'm done.

OyddAWqJ5r3 votes

Oh well that's because you ignored the op. I apologize but I honestly didn't see anything topically discussable. Cuz all you said was "spell vamp is weak what do you mean abuse?" Which is kinda like... What man? Lol. The whole point is to make it not weak.

TLDR: Read the damn OP man lmao

And uh... Did you even read my reply either? Lmao i know what Riot's definition of a rework is and even by their definition Vlad is in fact a rework.

You even went as far as to google it

xD LMAO what man?! Hahaha. Googling isn't time consuming bruh. Like, I'm not even joking! Try it sometime. Just go to google and type "rework define" and bam google magic lol.

N nah that's alright man. Sorry I couldn't entertain those, uh... "relevant" points.

Elikain1 votes

{quoted}

you should be looking at Riot's definition of a rework and an update since they defined the term based on the scope of work it requires.

Reading comprehension is not your strong side.

And i thought the whole point of me even being in this thread and discussing various cases where spell vamp was never OP or go to stat for mages was because i read the OP - which you skillfully ignored and started an argument about what a rework and an update is.

The way i told you is how Riot actually defined it so it's a fact. Whatever you say is your OPINION at this point that you're trying to pass as facts.

In any case, it is clear you don't want to be hearing any other sides of your OP, you just want people to agree with you or you'll derail it with pointless new arguments that should not be had. Let the thread die in peace, you've done enough. I can't take you seriously anymore.

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

The way i told you is how Riot actually defined it so it's a fact. Whatever you say is your OPINION at this point that you're trying to pass as facts.

Riot can't change the dictionary bud. If it looks like a rework and it quacks like a rework is probably a rework or a duck. And seeing as it's most likely not a duck I think it's safe to say it's a rework.

And even then, within the bounds of their own definitions there exists concepts that fall between the lines. This is because they define it with such lax terms--completely on purpose too so that they can decide what falls into the category of rework or update. So what I'm saying is that by their definitions Vladimir could fall under rework but they wanted to place him in update.

And i thought the whole point of me even being in this thread and discussing various cases where spell vamp was never OP or go to stat for mages was because i read the OP

Which means you may have read the OP but didn't comprehend it. I personally didn't see anything worth discussing because of it. No offense to you but you simply didn't present anything that wasn't already posted in the OP. You want an actual answer to your original post? Here:

Spell vamp has always been something that's been hard to make available to all the mages that want to utilize it due to some abusing it far better than others. And while typically having best and worst use cases is a standard trait in champion + item combinations, spell vamp by nature will always have extreme outliers and need to be balanced around those (aka undertuned for everyone else). This is due to the vast variations of spells and spell rotations in each individual champion.

Therefore in order for spellvamp to be a balanced stat for all mages it'd need to be something they can all equally access. As such i come to suggest a spellvamp cap.

The point of this is to make reaching maximum efficiency with spell vamp a possibility with all mages while at the same time limiting the abuse cases of it. By limiting abuse cases, we can buff the hell out of it for everyone else.

Now where did I mention that it was OP? Where did I say spell vamp needed to be nerfed? The point: I didn't, yet you posted as if I did, bringing up a completely unrelated topic. Now on this thread where discussing the topic's effect on the state of the game why would I reply to a false accusation on the pretenses of my proposed changes? It's illogical to do so, no?

So once again, no offense to you but your post was irrelevant. The only thing I personally saw worth discussing off topic was the little rework tidbit. Which is actually more interesting to me anyway.

...which you skillfully ignored and started an argument about what a rework and an update is.

Haha it was pretty skillful huh? Hook, line and sinker bud.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/VyaNhr61QQY/hqdefault.jpg

Reading comprehension is not your strong side. READ THE DAMN OP!!! Also... strong suit*

Elikain2 votes

Holy shit dude. Here's a very easy way to understand the difference between an update and a rework and their meaning - since i can't risk elaborating it further out of fear you'll put your peanut-sized brain to work and die. Try to follow this simple metaphor:

Rework - Large, red apple Update - Small, green apple Dictionary definition of a rework - it's an apple. The difference - size and color.

So, an apple describes both states - now we now.

In no way, shape or form did Riot use the word "apple" to describe grapes or pears. Or tomatos. Both apples are apples, obviously. The difference between these 2 apples (just from their description) is their size and color.

So i'm here arguing that: Large =/= Small Red =/= Green an apple = an apple

What you're arguing about is: "No, an apple is still an apple, you're dumb, your argument is void, i win = troll, haxorz, baitz, etc..."

1st strike for being dumb

#Now let's get to the matter at hand, your OP.

Here's the gist of it - You're proposing a rework of Spell Vamp. Which is fine on paper, if the system was broken or overpowered, which it isn't - but you claim it is. So, trying to force a change for the sake of change is a bad way to handle potential problems.

It was buffed and it still doesn't have any takers. Why? Because just one item (for mages) offers it and if you break down the stats it gives, you can get 80 AP in any other item and still have a stronger impact. Once you've purchased this AP somewhere else, 10% CDR is low and 15% Spell Vamp is a side stat that isn't worth much against assassins and tanks.

Champions who overused it were Akali, Vlad. Champions who used it were Morde and Katarina. 2 champions don't use it anymore, Akali has been nerfed. So was Vlad but he still can become a problem if his lane opponent is passive.

Spell Vamp is definitely not weak nor useless, it's just on an item that doesn't offer anything else but Spell Vamp - it's an OK but it doesn't help you in most cases to do anything better.

#Spell Vamp TL;DR

  • It's not weak nor overused
  • only a few overuse cases that were nerfed
  • every mage could make a use it
    • ** problems:**
    • it's very limited
    • few mage items in WotA's class are better options, making Spell Vamp not worth the risk to invest in

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