Why does Fiora even have mana?

DropFill·Apr 5, 2015·4 votes·996 views

I want a serious argument of why. I am pretty sure I will be able to debate it pretty easily, since there is no reason at all for her to have mana

30 Comments

thinking manApr 5, 201510 votes

To gate her from being able to spam the shit out of you.

Let me know how much damage you're willing to give up on her Q and how much attack speed on her E then you can have no mana.

redniwediSApr 5, 20151 votes

Just to clarify, this is the reason she has mana, however it's debatable whether it's working or not. It's debatable status has no impact on the initial reason.

TsugagaApr 5, 20154 votes

{quoted}

To gate her from being able to spam the shit out of you.

Let me know how much damage you're willing to give up on her Q and how much attack speed on her E then you can have no mana.

Riven, Zed, and Yasuo can "spam the shit out of you" too, and I don't think they're lacking any damage.

EDIT: Down vote the truth, good job. BTW, I never agreed about removing Fiora's mana.

thinking manApr 5, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Riven, Zed, and Yasuo can "spam the shit out of you" too, and I don't think they're lacking any damage.

Yasuo gets shit on in a lot of matchups since his base stats suck though

TsugagaApr 5, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Yasuo gets shit on in a lot of matchups since his base stats suck though

Doesn't change the fact that he can spam and doesn't lack damage.

thinking manApr 5, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Doesn't change the fact that he can spam and doesn't lack damage.

Yes but he will also die to those with mana because Windwall is useless against half the roster.

TsugagaApr 5, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Yes but he will also die to those with mana because Windwall is useless against half the roster.

I don't care if he loses lane to every single champ in the game, fact is that he can spam abilities and does a lot of damage. Also, no need to be spam happy with down votes, I simply stated a fact.

thinking manApr 5, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I don't care if he loses lane to every single champ in the game, fact is that he can spam abilities and does a lot of damage. Also, no need to be spam happy with down votes, I simply stated a fact.

I haven't downvoted your posts.

You don't understand that there is a design reason for whether or not a champion has a resource. Yasuo's entire kit is basically about spam but he doesn't have that good innate tankiness to back it up. Fiora not having mana isn't comparable since spamming QQ in lane is a lot stronger than anything Yasuo can do.

EvilRabbittApr 5, 20151 votes

Not good innate (minus wall+passive, but even so is outclassed heavily by true bruisers), but after just a few items he has far more than enough.

Fiora's Lunge will not out class Yasuo. Not by any measure. She has mana because of her ult- unlike Zed and Yasuo and etc etc, her ult (along with untargetability) has the potential to basically give her a second life if she built lifesteal. If she obtained the "manaless" state, her ult would have to be nerfed heavily or straight up removed.

Has played Zed/Yasuo/Fiora. Knows what they're talking about. Please no flame, flame accomplishes the assertion of insecurity not the assertion of fact. Also, downvoting truth is kinda how you live in ignorance- very dangerous.

thinking manApr 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Not good innate (minus wall+passive, but even so is outclassed heavily by true bruisers), but after just a few items he has far more than enough.

Fiora's Lunge will not out class Yasuo. Not by any measure. She has mana because of her ult- unlike Zed and Yasuo and etc etc, her ult (along with untargetability) has the potential to basically give her a second life if she built lifesteal. If she obtained the "manaless" state, her ult would have to be nerfed heavily or straight up removed.

Has played Zed/Yasuo/Fiora. Knows what they're talking about. Please no flame, flame accomplishes the assertion of insecurity not the assertion of fact. Also, downvoting truth is kinda how you live in ignorance- very dangerous.

Zed's gated in his own way by energy which, contrary to what people refuse to believe, is the single most gating resource outside of the laning phase. The only possible exceptions are things like Swain/Kass who eat excessive amounts of mana.

Fiora is still a way stronger champion on her own than Yasuo in a 1v1 or even in a teamfight unless Yasuo has somebody to give him a knockup. Yasuo's base stats and his reliance on his team as well as how much he spams justifies him having no resource.

Also the reason why sidewinder is downvoting them, I assume, is because they're using these facts to argue semantics.

TsugagaApr 5, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I haven't downvoted your posts.

You don't understand that there is a design reason for whether or not a champion has a resource. Yasuo's entire kit is basically about spam but he doesn't have that good innate tankiness to back it up. Fiora not having mana isn't comparable since spamming QQ in lane is a lot stronger than anything Yasuo can do.

Jeez man, yes I do understand that there are design reasons. "To gate her from being able to spam the shit out of you." Your reason was based on spamming abilities and doing damaging. You need to understand that I was simply pointing out that your reasoning was flawed and could be said for every single champ in the game who uses mana. I'm not debating balancing here, just replying to your bad reasoning, ok?

thinking manApr 5, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Jeez man, yes I do understand that there are design reasons. "To gate her from being able to spam the shit out of you." Your reason was based on spamming abilities and doing damaging. You need to understand that I was simply pointing out that your reasoning was flawed and could be said for every single champ in the game who uses mana. I'm not debating balancing here, just replying to your bad reasoning, ok?

My reasoning is incomplete because I did not state that they do not have sufficient drawbacks to necessitate not being able to spam. I automatically assumed that people understood Fiora already had a lot of damage/power on her own.

Either way, you are arguing semantics for a cause that you do not care about.

redniwediSApr 5, 20152 votes

Your opinion on the reasoning doesn't really matter for one, simple fact: This is Riot's reasoning.

redniwediSApr 5, 20151 votes

Actually I'm the one downvoting your posts. Yasuo, Riven, and Zed have nothing to do with the OP's question. As I said in my other post on here mana gating (which is the answer to the OP's question) is the reason Fiora has mana, however it's effectiveness is debatable.

DropFillApr 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yasuo gets shit on in a lot of matchups since his base stats suck though

And his base stats sucks because he got nerfed multiple times. Before, he had decent base stats and was able to shit on in a lot of matchups

DropFillApr 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

To gate her from being able to spam the shit out of you.

Let me know how much damage you're willing to give up on her Q and how much attack speed on her E then you can have no mana.

Like Zed , Riven, Renekton, Vlad or every other single resourceless champ can do right now? I see.

thinking manApr 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Like Zed , Riven, Renekton, Vlad or every other single resourceless champ can do right now? I see.

Fiora beats Vlad hard.

Zed is gated hard by energy outside of lane.

Renekton is shit outside of lane and has a hard time against a lot of mages.

Riven's Riven and I hate her so I won't argue there.

Abominations do not justify the creation of another abomination.

DropFillApr 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Fiora beats Vlad hard.

Zed is gated hard by energy outside of lane.

Renekton is shit outside of lane and has a hard time against a lot of mages.

Riven's Riven and I hate her so I won't argue there.

Abominations do not justify the creation of another abomination.

Fiora is shit outside of lane too So? "Beats vlad hard". Actually, no. Vlad only needs to let her push the lane and play defensively

thinking manApr 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Fiora is shit outside of lane too So? "Beats vlad hard". Actually, no. Vlad only needs to let her push the lane and play defensively

Fiora's way stronger than Renekton outside of lane and snowballs way harder. Although she can't kill Renekton himself, she's far more useful in a teamfight since Renekton requires a dedicated dive comp to be worth picking.

DropFillApr 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Fiora's way stronger than Renekton outside of lane and snowballs way harder. Although she can't kill Renekton himself, she's far more useful in a teamfight since Renekton requires a dedicated dive comp to be worth picking.

Far more useful? A single zhonyas will stop her from killing your mid laner. She is easy to focus because she has no defensive mobility. Yeah, she snowballs way harder, because she gets snowballed way harder too. Renekton can tank and CC, while doing decent damage. Fiora has only damage that is kind of easy to avoid if you CC her and make sure that she is away from your backline. Plenty of mages have a easy time against her in teamfights because of zhonyas

thinking manApr 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Far more useful? A single zhonyas will stop her from killing your mid laner. She is easy to focus because she has no defensive mobility. Yeah, she snowballs way harder, because she gets snowballed way harder too. Renekton can tank and CC, while doing decent damage. Fiora has only damage that is kind of easy to avoid if you CC her and make sure that she is away from your backline. Plenty of mages have a easy time against her in teamfights because of zhonyas

Then I guess she'll have to kill the ADC. Oh no!

DropFillApr 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Then I guess she'll have to kill the ADC. Oh no!

A decent team can peel fiora kind of easily

MalzaharAnyLaneApr 5, 20151 votes

That is why you have a bigger threat than Fiora that needs to be pulled, e.g. the tank or the APC.

She can also just go in first if she has no intention of surviving, her ult means the ADC/support is still going to die and probably whichever other squishies are unfortunate enough to be standing next to them trying to peel.

thinking manApr 5, 20152 votes

{quoted}

A decent team can peel fiora kind of easily

Why is Zhonya's relevant if she gets peeled?

How do you peel something with untargetability?

MalzaharAnyLaneApr 5, 20151 votes

Fiora beats all of those.

Critmaster GarenApr 5, 20153 votes

they could have made her an energy champ with exactly the same kit, and it would have made more sense. there is nothing magical about her abilities. at least less magical than zeds shadows. and you could argue, that fencing could fit into the line of energy champs, that seems to be reserved for ninjas and martial artists.

maybe she would actually be good.

Leblancs BoobApr 5, 20152 votes

Why does anyone have mana?

67chromeApr 5, 20151 votes

I want a serious argument of why.

As far as I can tell:

Mana is used when front-loading ~10 seconds of damage into 1 second. Auto-attacks are manaless.

Abilities that tend to opperate more like auto-attacks than abilities, front loading 10 seconds of damage in only, like, 6 seconds - tend to be more of the manaless variant. Rumble's flamethrower, Garen's Judgement, Riven's Wings, Vladimir's Tides, Yasou's Slash, Shyvana's Bite and Falmes, Mundo's Flames - all of these are pretty much an interesting take on an auto-attack steroid, and they're a core part of the champion's damage output. Some things like exceptional range also cost a lot of mana and come with slower, more poke-based DPS: but as Fiora is a melee champion that's not to relevant.

Fiora's Burst isn't her core damage though, and the thing about front-loading damage is pretty important with her ability responsiveness: A double Lunge into Blade Waltz does boatloads of damage. Alternativly, Tryndamere has essentially no QWER burst and has to auto-attack things to kill them, and Yasou needs to cast one of his skills 3 times to even use his ult. Fiora can just ult on someone's face to dodge their moves and kill them, which is a lot more burst in her court. Subsequently it's a lot less suck for her lanning phase compared to those two because of how solid her QWER damage really is.

No idea why Zed's manaless though. Only thing I can really see there is "ninja", and Fiora would probably work with an energy system about as well as him.