Why was only lethality nerfed and not mpen?

Rexxiee·Dec 21, 2017·5 votes·912 views

Sorcerer + mask making every mage do true damage to squishies for less than 3k gold is absurd atm.

31 Comments

SalronDec 21, 20176 votes

Be careful you aren't conforming to the "mages are weak" circlejerk

LostFr0stDec 21, 20173 votes

It's not "mages are weak" it's "mages are not stronger than before preseason."

There is a difference.

Rockm SockmDec 21, 20172 votes

{quoted}

It's not "mages are weak" it's "mages are not stronger than before preseason."

There is a difference.

They clearly are. They gained the most from pre season with poke through the roof, no Mr, and free insane scaling runes.

Who is TaliyahDec 21, 20172 votes

You do realize that all mages lost their armor runes and that ad champs are shitting on them mostly?

LostFr0stDec 22, 20171 votes

They added MR to most champs. The pen changes were to offset that. There is also the level-1 hexdrinker rune "nulifying orb." Mage players must love that one.

Anyone who has a medium-range harass spell gained poke from preseason. It's not even just mages using it. For example comet + Olaf / Camille / Jhin / MissFortune . Anyone with a built-in slow can use that keystone better than most mages.

The class which probably gained the most from preseason is either

ADCs (lots of nice att spd options),
supports (great cdr options), or
Grasp-taking tanks (I get to heal when my opponent tries to trade with me and gain bonus permanent health? Count me in!)

RalanrDec 21, 20175 votes

Because there’s a lot more lethality than magic pen and not every mage buys liandries while most AD assassins/lethality users stacked it?

Idk, seems obvious to me.

EedatDec 21, 20173 votes

33 flat magic pen for 2600g vs 18 Lethality that is gated by level for 2900g. Hmmmm wonder which is the problem

LostFr0stDec 21, 20172 votes

Because lethality was buffed by 2 before they saw the outcome of preseason/runes.

It was more of a revert than a nerf.

RexxieeDec 21, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Because lethality was buffed by 2 before they saw the outcome of preseason/runes.

It was more of a revert than a nerf.

Sorcerer was buffed by 3 aswell.

And voidstaff was buffed by 5%.

Where are those reverts?

LostFr0stDec 21, 20174 votes

Mages aren't overperforming compared to before preseason like the lethality users.

EedatDec 21, 20171 votes

Which mages? Some are performing quite well while others aren't. You know, like every class.

LostFr0stDec 21, 20172 votes

That's a mage itemization problem, not due to the pen changes. MR was added to all champs while armor was not.

Lethality was pre-emptively buffed by 2 because Riot expected them to need it, turns out they did not, so they reverted it.

EedatDec 21, 20171 votes

That didn't really answer my point. Saying that "mages aren't over performing compared to before preseason" is incorrect. There are lots of mages over performing. Also need a distinction that we're talking AP vs AD because it's not just mages that build magic pen

LostFr0stDec 21, 20172 votes

Also need a distinction that we're talking AP vs AD because it's not just mages that build magic pen

That's fine.

We are comparing the following:

AP champions building magic pen before preseason vs after preseason.

and

AD champions building pen before preseason vs after preseason.

After the buffs to Mpen and Lethality, Riot found out (through data) that while the mpen changes roughly equalized the performance of mpen building champions before and after preseason, the Lethality users became a bit stronger compared to before preseason.

Thus the buffs to the lethality items were reverted.

ShablagooDec 21, 20173 votes

Pretty sure after morg got buffed she was at a 56 winrate, before malz got nerfed he was 55+ too, mages were over preforming it seem like you just choose to ignore when they are.

LostFr0stDec 21, 20171 votes

Morg was reworked. Malz was just never nerfed before preseason. The changes to pen were not the direct reason for their power levels, which is what the OP is talking about.

ShablagooDec 22, 20171 votes

But malz was still the top mid laner and still is, and we are talking about preseason because we are talking about a direct nerf in the preseason. How does it turn to pre-preseason, because two lethality users were dominating, if we are to talk about before the preseason then malz was dominating literally the whole season, lethality is a main component that is abused by users who should not be using it mainly MF, so many indirect nerfs were because of her, yet kat gets a direct nerf while magic pen is way stronger then lethality rn, it is just db makes it seem so.

LostFr0stDec 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

But malz was still the top mid laner and still is, and we are talking about preseason because we are talking about a direct nerf in the preseason. How does it turn to pre-preseason, because two lethality users were dominating,

It's not just two lethality users. Its nearly the whole lethality class. The reds in the "chat with playtest" talked about it directly, and the patch notes did too.

if we are to talk about before the preseason then malz was dominating literally the whole season,

This thread is not on Malz. IDK why he didn't get earlier nerfs but he didn't get nerfed due to pen changes. He got nerfed because he was too strong and they got around to nerfing him after many months.

lethality is a main component that is abused by users who should not be using it mainly MF, so many indirect nerfs were because of her,

Jhin Kayn Khazix MissFortune Pantheon Rengar Riven Talon Zed and probably MonkeyKing Quinn were stronger post preseason than before it.

I mentioned probably for the last two because I wasn't tracking them through the preseason patch for curiosity's sake due to their relative rarity.

Part of that improvement is due to how bad the resolve tree is other than the keystones which caused a meta-shift. The other part is that they added no base armor to most champs after removing runes (armor seals) yet added a decent amount of lethality through "sudden impact" and other damage runes (which made up for losing lethality in their rune pages).

yet kat gets a direct nerf while magic pen is way stronger then lethality rn, it is just db makes it seem so.

Kat got a direct nerf due to how much benefit she was getting from "coup de grace" and "triumph." Her nerfs were not directly due to magic pen increases either.

ShablagooDec 22, 20171 votes

Yes I understand that these champs are strong with lethalty, but most of them are strong only because of lethality, Talon was completely underperforming till lethality and db got changed in general. Looking at the overall timeline it is obvious that they either need to change the kits of ad or assassins in general because delay dmg does not work, or they need to buff them so they dont depend on it. Panth and kha were naturally strong as is db made kha overbearing, while pantheon just pokes till he can combo you.

Again this thread is on pen in general, tbh I dont really think op knows how much more lethality effects ad assassins as much as mpen does for mages. But it actually really seems like for how much little mr there is the magic pen kat is able to purchase makes her a threat at all stages of the game. Obviously it isnt completely mpen or as impactful but you cant say it isnt a big factor.

Malz being strong now, is not just his kit but also the fact that their is little to no mr scaling, and unless bought extra ,which doesnt really even mean anything after void and another pen item, doesnt help. However it is a bonus considering how toxic malz kit naturally is, but I dont see why magic pen shouldnt be hit considering how little mr there is in general, especially compared to armor options.

LostFr0stDec 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yes I understand that these champs are strong with lethalty, but most of them are strong only because of lethality, Talon was completely underperforming till lethality and db got changed in general. Looking at the overall timeline it is obvious that they either need to change the kits of ad or assassins in general because delay dmg does not work, or they need to buff them so they dont depend on it. Panth and kha were naturally strong as is db made kha overbearing, while pantheon just pokes till he can combo you.

I get that. At the end of the day it's only a few points of lethality. If the duel was so close to have needed that lethality, it was probably a coin-toss even with it. Maybe it shaved like 1% WR from them, it's w/e.

Again this thread is on pen in general, tbh I dont really think op knows how much more lethality effects ad assassins as much as mpen does for mages. But it actually really seems like for how much little mr there is the magic pen kat is able to purchase makes her a threat at all stages of the game. Obviously it isnt completely mpen or as impactful but you cant say it isnt a big factor.

Until they legitimately overhaul AP itemization this spring, mages won't have a good tuning mechanism like the assassins do. It'd be nice if mpen items had more branches (void staff and sorc boots are the only universally accessible ones). You're definitely right about Kat though, most mages don't have that option.

Malz being strong now, is not just his kit but also the fact that their is little to no mr scaling, and unless bought extra ,which doesnt really even mean anything after void and another pen item, doesnt help. However it is a bonus considering how toxic malz kit naturally is, but I dont see why magic pen shouldnt be hit considering how little mr there is in general, especially compared to armor options.

Malz kinda falls into the Kat bucket. He wants and can use all the pen items. But since not all champs can stack those items, they can't just trim 2pen off the items. Hopefully a day where mages can be partially tuned like that will come.

On Malz specifically, he's best kept at bay with item 3194 . It's almost literally 20% DR from his whole kit.

ShablagooDec 22, 20171 votes

I hope not more mpen items isnt a good idea with the current system we have now, to some extent I kind of agree that mages should get 1 more armor item but make it have to contest with zhonya's because another armor item plus zhonyas would be to much. In a sense their isnt much needing to be changed with mage items other then lowering cost and making mini versions( mainly this shit item 3089 ). Other then that I personally have no real sympathy for mages when they complain because it isnt a mage items are weak, it is just that they are bored with it.

Also again it doesnt seem you understand the power of the few pen items mages have just sorc boots and void alone are enough to destory squishies and punish tanks it is this fact alone that makes mages a real power house. One ap mage on the other them now i have to build one magic resist item, that would even do much against them because they have void staff. If assassins didnt have maw's passive( because the actual mr is negligible) then they would only be able to kill adc's unless they misplay against a mage or outplay them.

Also are you talking about on tanks or are you taking about for every champion to build, because in that sense then mages could also build armor items like deadman or item 3143 .

LostFr0stDec 23, 20171 votes

I mean variations with non-stackable passives (kinda like item 3075 item 3143 item 3110 building out of item 3082 which has cold steel).

so item 3136 would get another version other than item 3151 and item 3191 would get something other than item 3157 . That kinda change which would allow build-pivoting like hoe a lot of things build out of item 3134 item 3133 .

At least split into two items like they did with . Just splitting void would perhaps be adequate for pen depending on how they change the other AP items.

Against dot mages i'd buy as an ADC over Maw. It's cheaper, has more mr, and has the 20% DR from the passive due to the champs I'm vs. If it's not , sure Maw wins. Maw just gets popped too easily vs them and when it's on cd it only helps with the flat mr.

If they change the AP and Mpen items then it allows them to change the MR items. They can't do one without the other.

Yes, some mages do indeed buy deadman's. It's especially fun on Veigar .

ShablagooDec 23, 20171 votes

So basically items its with slight variations that do the same thing? The difference between those items though is that that attack specific aspects of ad, thorn sustain, randiuns crit, and frozen is overall pure defense with attack speed slow.

Regardless of if you have different versions of item 3151 and item 3157 only the passives are are going to be non stackable however just like all three items have different passives, the armor is still stackable with them, which will happen with different versions of the other two you listed which is the problem, not the passives but the stats they give.

I dont think ppl understand the power that void has compared to lw, it isnt even comparable to it it is more comparable to Black clever, because it works on current MR lw is only bonus. LW is a pure tank killing item, that actually works best with adc's, void works well on all mages.

LostFr0stDec 24, 20171 votes

{quoted}

So basically items its with slight variations that do the same thing? The difference between those items though is that that attack specific aspects of ad, thorn sustain, randiuns crit, and frozen is overall pure defense with attack speed slow.

Just more items that share component paths. The only secondaries we have in hardcore AP are item 3108 and I guess item 3010 . The rest of the buildpaths are unique secondaries after item 1052 merging.

Regardless of if you have different versions of and only the passives are are going to be non stackable however just like all three items have different passives, the armor is still stackable with them, which will happen with different versions of the other two you listed which is the problem, not the passives but the stats they give.

Most of the benefits of those items are in the passives/actives. As I expect/hope the case to be with the newer AP items. They shouldn't be efficient enough to want to be stacked for their stats.

I dont think ppl understand the power that void has compared to lw, it isnt even comparable to it it is more comparable to Black clever, because it works on current MR lw is only bonus. LW is a pure tank killing item, that actually works best with adc's, void works well on all mages.

Old LW was stronger. It was nerfed and made into a component item and given upgrades. Void should get the same treatment.

FOR JUSTICEDec 21, 20171 votes

Void staff was buffed to compensate for lost mpen runes though

EedatDec 21, 20172 votes

That's kind of null considering you can get 33 flat magic pen for 2600g compared to 18 Lethality for 2900g and even that pen is gated by level. Then you have Void that is beyond a shadow of a doubt better than LW items by a long shot. It's even super effective against squishy targets. Stacking 3 Lethality items still isn't as effective considering at this point in the game champs have double the base armor that they do base MR

PennsDec 21, 20172 votes

Plus Duskblade active + its passive + its high AD

And you can stack armor pen while still getting item 3111 or item 3047 which is probably the biggest difference. 33 magic pen for 2600 gold, meanwhile negates 25 of that for 1100 while you can still stack pen yourself lel

Malix FarwinDec 21, 20172 votes

Rather you feel Mages are strong or weak has nothing to do with the fact that Magic Pen is weak to the point where you have to build nothing but magic pen for it to be somewhat effective or build none at all which is the polar opposite of lethality.

gabetheguyDec 21, 20171 votes

because mage itemization sucks and building defensively against mages is stupidly easy.

kaironenDec 21, 20171 votes

Magic pen isn't even an issue atm though. If there is any issue regarding magic dmg, the -12 or -15 magic resist is probably. Sorry if I keep going back to the -12 magic resist but it really annoys me that it got taken away. Many champions who weren't using magic pen but have a ton of magic dmg got a good indirect buff due to this change.

KivolanDec 22, 20171 votes

Because item 3135 isn't a first item. Or second. Or even a third most of the time. item 3151 is maybe a second item, or third. Mages have three items to get MPen with. Those two and item 3020 (which gives up any one of the much more useful boots). AD has item 3147 item 3814 item 3142 item 3071 item 3035