How can you justify a champion being at 50% ban rate for several months. A champion that builds full tank and deals 1000+ true dmg. I really don't get it. Even in worlds, top lane is cho or maokai almost every game. I honestly cannot understand how are there still no nerfs, just......
Tortunga33 votesThey most likely don't know how to nerf him, without completely gutting him, as his insane ult damage comes from Gargoyle Stoneplate active, and not his kit.
If Gargoyle would reduce true damage as well, Cho would be pretty much useless. His CC isn't very reliable, and he is very easy to kite, he would only be a large meat shield.
Pumping Iron32 votesIf Gargoyle would reduce true damage as well
That's a perfect nerf.
Tortunga9 votesNo that's a perfect way to destroy Cho. His kit is very unreliable, his knock-up is pretty easy to dodge, and his silence has a short range. His spikes is great for early game but barely does anything later on. The only thing he has going for him is being a very large meat-shield and the 1k+ true damage stoneplate gargoyle ultimates.
Remove the latter and he is just a large meat shield, as his ult without gargoyle isn't that gamechanging at all.
LankPants40 votesIf the only thing keeping Cho viable is cheese 1K true damage ults then he doesn't deserve to be viable.
Not xPeke15 votes^ this.
He should be reworked then.
Big Black Croc7 votesHe's in line for a rework. They should just gut him until he gets one.
Fairyfleur16 votesSo, trash every Cho'gath player that likes playing him just so you don't have to find a solution for his strong state atm?
LordGeovanni4 votesAs some one who has played aatrox for years this should stop happening to melees when ranged champions never get this treatment
SnakDatSmilesBak1 votesAzir, kalista
PB4UAME3 votesNotice how the keep buffing and tuning those guys, and keep breaking them again and again instead of actually just waiting for the rework? Tell me when that happened to Olaf or Eve, or Garen prior to juggernaut patch, or Galio, and Skarner, ever before their reworks? What about Poppy and Yorick?
DuskDaUmbreon7 votesThey most likely don't know how to nerf him, without completely gutting him, as his insane ult damage comes from Gargoyle Stoneplate active, and not his kit.
If Gargoyle would reduce true damage as well, Cho would be pretty much useless. His CC isn't very reliable, and he is very easy to kite, he would only be a large meat shield.
His interaction was changed with stoneplate. It adds to base health, now, meaning that his ult (which scales with bonus health) doesn't gain bonus damage from it.
Tortunga5 votesNo they changed it that not all the extra health was considered bonus health.
If you have 2k base health and 3k bonus health, you will have 4k base health and 6k bonus health with Stoneplate active.
jwebb01137 votesbut to get 100% hp increase you have to be near 3 enemies or more...
and if a big slow massive tank is in the middle of 3 or more enemies why arent people using CC/exhaust , kiting him etc
and 
active has a 90 sec cd , 
has a 300 sec cd
so the interaction of the 100% hp increase being active with the 90 sec cd with the 300 sec cd of his flash and 
90 sec cd ...and the cd of his ult all has to be timed perfectly in a perfect storm to have 100% effectiveness.
also his stacks are limited only 6 stacks can be obtained from minions and non epic monsters so anything beyond 6 stacks has to be a champion kill or a epic monster kill ( drag, baron, rift )
also if his ult can kill a target there is a red ring under neath that target ... so it indicates that what target/enemy can be executed by cho's ult.
oh and the kicker on all this is his ULT is melee range... yes it increases on stacks but is limited to 10
so there are alot of what ifs that have to happen for him to pull of this ideal perfect 1000+ true damage ult ... and its not common.
if you look at the break down of his average damage per game , 60% of his damage is magic damage, only 22% of his damage comes from true damage
NineTailedMystic1 votesExhaust doesn't matter, and Righteous Glory gets him into 3 enemy range pretty easy.
jwebb01132 votesbut never the less stoneplate dont give 100% BONUS HP any more... it scales the hp differently since the change and it reduced the damage his ult does by 19% ...
oh and i posted the image of the damage chart and the video from the patch break down that states this
NineTailedMystic1 votesOk? 19% less damage from his R would be -190 from a formerly 1k damage R. A formerly 1.5k damage R would now be 1,215 damage. By no means should a true damage point and click nuke do this much, and it being melee range isn't enough of a downside. There are many tools he has to get in range and he only has to get in it once.
jwebb01132 votesbut he would have to have a max rank on ult. ( lvl 16) plus 3500 bonus hp at that point to do 1000 true damage
and if you go and look at my comment explaining this ... at lvl 16 he has 1733 base hp, to have 3500 bonus hp he would have to have over 5000 hp to do 1000 true damage
650+10% bonus hp as damage is the scaling of his ult ...
so 3500 bonus hp would give 350 damage add that to the base of 650 then we have 1000
its not typical.
and over 60% of his damage per game is magic damage, only 20-22% is true damage, and he still has one of the lower damage per game totals of champs in general between 15k-16k
all of this is in my comments
jwebb01135 votesGargoyle Stoneplate Health granted by Stoneplate's active's is now partially base health, rather than entirely bonus health.
Making good on last patch’s promise, we’ve got a set of changes to mitigate Stoneplate’s oversynergies with a few specific effects. Most importantly, Stoneplate now knows the difference between base health and bonus health. The total health granted is the same as before (with two exceptions—see below), but Stoneplate will contribute far less to effects that scale with bonus health as a result of this change—Cho’Gath’s ult and Locket’s shield being the two most notorious offenders here. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-718-notes#patch-items
so just be clear riot did address how the bonus hp is effective with the active of
and yes before this change it was 100% busted ...
but since the change cho's win rate has leveled out and sits right at 50.32% in PLAT + overall ( 51.99 % in jungle, 48.26% mid, 49.72% top)
Penns27 votescho has 50% win rate so he is balanced hehe kappa
Big Black Croc11 votesYour for real going to put "hehe" or "xd" in every one of your comments?Do you like that word or something?
Cherilyn4 votesJust kite him they said...
Just kill him they said...
Arakadia3 votesYou act like both of those items are always up and like Righteous Glory makes you unkitable.
LordGeovanni2 votesJust cc him they said.... no item for that just another long cooldown situation spell loke those long cooldown situational items
jwebb011319 votescho dont do 1500 true damage
he typically dont do 1000+ true damage.
the scaling on his ult is 300 / 475 / 650 (+ 50% AP) (+ 10% bonus health) so lets say he has no AP
he would have to have be max rank in ult so lvl 16 and have 3500 bonus hp to do 1000 true damage from his ult.
and his base hp at lvl 16 is 1733 so to have 3500 bonus hp he would have to have total of 5233 hp
so for him to do 1000 true damage ... he would have to have 5233 total hp and be max rank in ult.
Neidox6 votesWhich isn't hard to do and will eventually happen in any medium lengthed gamed.
jwebb011315 voteshe dont typically get 5233 total hp
350hp 400hp 
250hp 
800hp 
is 1800 bonus hp from items
he would still need 1700 bonus hp from stacks/which would need 6 stacks at max rank ult (160x6) for 960 bonus hp from stacks + the perfectly timed gargoyle plate active while around 3 or more allies
and if you let him get to late game to have all this ... and still get in melee range of him then maybe dont be in melee range of him..
and still if you go and look at his damage break down per game 60%+ of his damage comes from MAGIC DAMAGE not true damage.
he isnt walking up and just using R to 0-100 you... he is using Q, SILENCE , and vorpal spikes THEN USING R AS AN EXECUTE which is its intent
DJMason889 votesYou didn't even list the amount of health that gargoyle gives you...
jwebb011311 votesgargoyle stone plate dont give hp... it gives a bonus hp effect
lets take in the changes to gargoyle Gargoyle Stoneplate Health granted by Stoneplate's active's is now partially base health, rather than entirely bonus health.
Making good on last patch’s promise, we’ve got a set of changes to mitigate Stoneplate’s oversynergies with a few specific effects. Most importantly, Stoneplate now knows the difference between base health and bonus health. The total health granted is the same as before (with two exceptions—see below), but Stoneplate will contribute far less to effects that scale with bonus health as a result of this change—Cho’Gath’s ult and Locket’s shield being the two most notorious offenders here. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-718-notes#patch-items
Grants base health equal to 40% (or 100%) base health and bonus health equal to 40% (or 100%) bonus health
so with the changes it reduced the damage by 19%
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmQ_eWd6cps 57:55
so he got a good nerf
RiotRiot Sotere51 votesWe additionally nerfed his primary rush item with Righteous Glory going up in price by 150g. Made his lane less safe against certain match-ups with Bramble Vest costing 100g more in 7.19.
I was tasked to investigate him further for 7.20 but gave the suggestion we hold off. As you can imagine it was a contentious proposal. But, his ban rate is dropping. His win rate certainly isn't out of line in my opinion. I'm pretty confident players will continue to find more champions to counter him as the systems favor him less.
I think we definitely have levers to pull if we need to nerf him. Some of the directions I found most promising were as follows:
I'm sure we'll keep an eye on Cho'Gath in the next couple of patches and the next designer assigned may come to a different conclusion than I did. I'm not sure my reasoning will be particularly comforting for the OP but I wanted to allay any fears that we're ignoring Cho.
jwebb01134 voteswell personally i feel he is a strong champ who if you dont keep your distance you are going to be punished.
just like other juggernauts.
his average stats per game has 60% of his damage coming from a magic damage. and 20 % from true damage while around 15-16k damage per game ( based on plat + for this patch via lolalyatics.com )
i understand why people complain over him but i dont see him more of an issue then any other champs.
however i purpose this as a change... let his stacks on feast scale for ever i dont care... give him bonus hp...
just tweak his ult damage... dont let it have a scaling , just increase the base damage... so people then cant say oh it does so much damage blah blah blah cuz of blah blah blah
currently the scaling on his ult is 300 / 475 / 650 (+ 50% AP) (+ 10% bonus health) why not just make his base damages higher at every rank and remove the scaling.
so from 300 /475/650 to 450/600/750 with no scaling, hell give it a reset if he executes a champ with it... kinda like darius for a certain window of time
Lord Desert9 votesWell based on the statistics I can access he is not even that strong, he is only annyoing to play against because he can just stack a crap ton of hp early, which makes him very hard to kill in the midgame. (And alot of people forget about this
) And thats it... Im sure you figuered about the same.
Also ChoGaths kit is already the definition of "outplayable".
While I dont see any balance problems in him, if you decide to nerf him why not shift his power more to AP cho again?
The Yetii Rider2 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=leO9Hg8s,comment-id=000b00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-08T20:25:57.834+0000)
- **Make him pay a higher cost for his damage. ** If he wants massive Feasts we could make him build more AP. This is a more dangerous direction as I personally don't think Mage Cho is a particularly compelling pattern but for someone building no offensive items he's probably doing too much damage.
The champion is a juggernaut. He has AP ratios as a result of being an old champion.
If you want to make him pay a higher cost for his damage, just change him into a true juggernaut. Make him have base AD scalings instead of AP scalings. Encourage him to build items like 
. There's seriously no reason to have an AP juggernaut in the game, what kind of itemization is a champion like that possibly going to build? 
.
Hope you respond to this one, I'm not just throwing these suggestions into the wind. I want to know what the person working on Cho thinks of an AP juggernaut in the game.
What Is Smite2 votes 
Those are all viable options to build on Morde for an AP Juggernaut, his passive makes him way more tankier than people assume so he doesn't really have much of a need to build HP
jwebb01135 votesap or ad isnt what determines what is a juggernaut or not a juggernaut
he is an AP juggernaut
Emelie Cauchemar1 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=leO9Hg8s,comment-id=000b00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-08T20:25:57.834+0000)
We additionally nerfed his primary rush item with Righteous Glory going up in price by 150g. Made his lane less safe against certain match-ups with Bramble Vest costing 100g more in 7.19.
I was tasked to investigate him further for 7.20 but gave the suggestion we hold off. As you can imagine it was a contentious proposal. But, his ban rate is dropping. His win rate certainly isn't out of line in my opinion. I'm pretty confident players will continue to find more champions to counter him as the systems favor him less.
I think we definitely have levers to pull if we need to nerf him. Some of the directions I found most promising were as follows:
- Reduce the consistency of his crowd control chaining. Probably would aim at an E duration nerf for this.
- Make his scaling less guaranteed. He gets to uber tank status pretty easily with mostly minion Feasts. Easy-ish option would be to lower the number he can get from feasting low priority targets.
- **Make him pay a higher cost for his damage. ** If he wants massive Feasts we could make him build more AP. This is a more dangerous direction as I personally don't think Mage Cho is a particularly compelling pattern but for someone building no offensive items he's probably doing too much damage.
I'm sure we'll keep an eye on Cho'Gath in the next couple of patches and the next designer assigned may come to a different conclusion than I did. I'm not sure my reasoning will be particularly comforting for the OP but I wanted to allay any fears that we're ignoring Cho.
what about Sejuani and her sweet 56% wr + pick/ban for the last 7 months?
[sg-ahri-1]
chipndip11 votesOn what planet was it 56% win?
Emelie Cauchemar5 votesOn what planet was it 56% win?
https://gyazo.com/f528e23d7c8c6f8bc47c268500d22014
It was 56 just an hour ago. So.
Catastrop13 votesAll Riot has to do is revert the retarded Vorpal Spikes changes and I'll be happy.
ZT Xperimentor10 votesOne of the slowest champions, which is the only one who has a harder time dodging the more he gets fed, and you have trouble kiting him?
Big Black Croc6 votesTry kiting when he's running you down with rightouse glory active, slows with point and click E, Q's, then stoneplate ULT.
ZT Xperimentor4 votesHis Q isn't targeted and is quite delayed. The righteous glory has a minute & a half cooldown, and there's plenty of other mobility abilities that are shorter. The boost he gets is only movement speed, hit him with something that immobilizes him such as a root/stun/popup.
Onerios4 votesAlso, glory can be triggered early by someone bodyblocking him. With all the squishy ardent supports this is a little harder to do as it puts them at risk of being chomped instead, but if cho can't get into melee to proc either glory's slow or his e his kill pressure goes down substantially.
Thewannabegamer6 votesGod forbid someone has to use a flash or mobility spell defensively
[sg-miss-fortune]
Sioxor9 votesI agree with Tortunga. They probably don't know how to nerf him because he is a pretty unique champion. If you face him in game the best thing I can recommend is just pound on him early and poke him and fight him as much as possible because he is very very weak early. hope this helps.
Nanuk Pihoqahiak5 votesYou can start by not buffing him in such obscure ways. He was about a 48 percent winrate before they made any change to him. The big thing he needed at the time was less punishing mana costs, a couple bugs fixed, and a tiny bit more reliability in his Q, seeing as it used to not match the indicator.
IRyzeForNidalee9 votesIt's not like it matters right now anyways, ranged damage meta is so strong he dies just as fast as anybody else does. Hopefully they remove gargoyle stoneplate at the same time they finally nerf ADCs.
Abibyama2 votesThey won’t remove stoneplate, period.
Aetherium Blade5 votesThey won’t remove stoneplate, period.
Force Of Nature and all other now-removed items says hi.
Don't ever say that they wont, because they have. I miss muh Force Of Nature and Heart Of Gold ;_;
