Can we stop calling the tank rework a fail ALREADY.

Skorch··77 votes·3,717 views

These reworks change a lot of things. Sometimes these things are quite large, and need multiple patches to fix.

Sej is broken Zac is sub-par Maokai is a mage support

That doesnt mean riot purposefully did these things, and doesnt mean this is what they want. They all have their respective changes incoming, and will take several patches in order to fairly judge the results of the reworks.

So lets give it 2 months or so, and if the champions are still in general failures in their weak OR strong moments, THEN we can fairly judge the rework.

Stop jumping the gun and give it a bit before the world ends.


EDIT

I am just gonna put this in as an edit so I don't keep repeating it:

You cannot tell what is balanceable / unhealthy. Without giving proper time to ATTEMPT balancing.

164 Comments

Lord Desert47 votes

Dude, they had months, challenger players for testing, reduced it down to 3 champs from 6-5 and Riot itself is not just a small company on an indy game level.... I'm fair, I can accept a good but not perfect work, but not this... for me this was a huge let down and I honestly disagree with riots decisions more and more every new patchnote I'm reading.... I'm not jumping any gun because I do the maths, worst and best case treated as the common occuring case. Those failures were not a surprise to me and you didnt need to be a genius to saw that coming. Things can have small mistakes at the beginng, that just human, but a total mess is not a "small mistake"!

Skorch10 votes

I wouldnt call the tank rework a "total mess" the new kits DO fix some issues, and change things important. I want nerfs/buffs before i declare major issues in kits.

Changing scalings on Maos E for example may INSTANTLY fix the mage bot support issue.

Lord Desert16 votes

Do you mind telling me which issues excatly were fixed? Because all that I can see is that the amount of issues just increased.... Also lets not forget the item changes... If something is aimed to make something better, but fails to do so, while increasing the amount of problems ontop, I think "a total mess" does indeed fit nicely. But lets call it: "needs alot more work" instead! Obvious work which should have been done beforehand..... Yes "obvious", we are talking about challengers and veterans with years of experience, not some 12 year olds who never touched balance before...

Changing his E scalings wouldnt do much other than reducing solo mao viability, if you want to "fix" it I suggest a 50% reduced dmg for every following sapling (100% 1st, 50%2nd, 25%3rd etc.). Potential increase of his W dmg to compensate. The thing is Riot does not balance things like this... It would be obvious to us, but not to them! They will nerf the W dmg further to "balance" the E! They never takled the actual problem for years...

AmazoX3 votes

Meanwhile HotS has a way better balance team.

statelesskiller6 votes

because heroes of the storm listens to the community. in heroes of the storm sylvanas got a brand new ult choice to replace another one that a community member came up with. took blizzard a month to implement it. but thats only because it spent alot of time of there PTR (there version of the PBE) to test it.

Doomyous3 votes

I want nerfs/buffs before i declare major issues in kits.

wait a minute...

"Sej is broken Zac is sub-par"

???

Skorch2 votes

"kits" being key words. Sejuani CURRENTLY is strong and Zac CURRENTLY is sub par, but I dont know if thats their KITS fault, or just inflated numbers. THATS what i mean.

Doomyous2 votes

Well you judged SOMETHING, be it the kit or the numbers, but it was enough for you to conclude that seju was broken in less then a week! The devs and testers should have been able to do the same with MONTHS of testing xD Also it doesnt matter if the kit or the numbers are overtuned if its not balanced they should have at least somewhat fix that beforehand. "broken" is not a state in which a champ should be when he/she/it gets released XD

Skorch1 votes

As much as i want to agree, it happens. Personally i dont find Sejuani THAT bad, but those 3 are just general boards consensus since the patch released.

Doomyous2 votes

I somewhat can tolerate new champions to be a tiny bit broken at the start (which then should get hotfixed), but not "semi reworked" things... (Sion/poopy would be full reworks) Sejus numbers on her passiv are just insane, 20% max hp, 3 sec slow Immunity AND basically 70%+ dmg reduction xD That is so overtuned xD And like the other guy said the item are also questionable at best. I wouldnt call it a failure, but considering the timeframe and overall work done something more balanced should be expected! I dont want to wait months until everything gets somewhat sorted out...

BakedLotion17 votes

They reworked the champions that didn't need it and made them worse.

What the fuck was wrong with Zac in the first place? And Sejuani? And Maokai?

They ALL functioned perfectly fine and didn't have any glaring issues other than having reliable and easy to put out damage.

Why did they rework champions that were fine when there are champions like Rammus/Malphite???

For Sejuani, how was her kit "too weak in comparison to her ult?" Her Q was a knockup, W did good aoe damage, her E was an AOE slow (which was my favorite skill in the game), and her powerful R. Should have kept her E, reworked her W, and nerfed the ult a bit. Where the fuck are the slows for an ice champion??? This champ seems terrible to play because she has ZERO slows. She basically has no CC until she gets 4 stacks on you or ults you...

Zac is self explanatory. The new ult is useless. Q is ok.

Maokai was given a useless ult, and a gimmick on his E. Bad .

Aeszarck3 votes

{quoted}

Why did they rework champions that were fine when there are champions like Rammus/Malphite???

Because those Champions have problems that are too large to fix with a roster update. They wanted to fix Champions with minor issues and save Champions like Rammus and Malphite for visual/gameplay updates.

SociopathFriend3 votes

They reworked the champions that didn't need it and made them worse.

Considering the 3 champions you gave are respectively: too weak, too strong, and changed position entirely- I'm curious what definition of "worse" will apply to all 3.

BakedLotion7 votes

{quoted}

Considering the 3 champions you gave are respectively: too weak, too strong, and changed position entirely- I'm curious what definition of "worse" will apply to all 3.

Their kits are worse and unsatisfying to play as

Try playing as Sejuani right now. Yes she's overpowered because of numbers, but once you land your Q, what do you do? You have ZERO cc until you attack 4 times. She's clunky as fuck.

Why does she not have a slow? Old Sejuani was a cc machine. She could slow and stun and entire team while dealing decent damage. She was amazing in team fights with all her utility. She sets up teamfights (which is exactly what Riot wanted her to do. Be a leader.) Except now, all her cc is directed on a single target and she lost all her teamfighting power.

Zac's ult is just useless nothing more to say. He just isnt fun anymore because he only has 3 spells

Maokai is just going full AP and spamming saplings in a bush. How is that fun? lmfao

TehNACHO2 votes

If you landed your Q, you should basically have 3 stacks already. You can queue your W while charging with your Q. Also, the moment your Q hits something, it automatically queues an auto attack. Done right you have a stack before you land (W1), a stack as you land (Auto), and a stack shortly after you land (W2).

LankPants1 votes

It doesn't work that way.

W locks you out of attacks, if you queue a W in your Q you can't AA them after your Q hits, you just automatically move lock to them and will AA at the moment you can. You can't actually start the AA until your W ends though.

TehNACHO2 votes

Ahh, you're right. When I learned the combo it felt like that but I guess I missed the details.

Regardless, unless the opponent blinks instantly, the combo still stands. You can (effectively) instantly load up 3 stacks of the passive with a single Q-W combo.

LankPants12 votes

The big problem I have is that none of the reworks even made the champions better to play or fairer to play against.

Zac's rework just makes no sense at all considering he was already amongst the best designed in the class. His new ult is always going to feel worse than his old ult and his Q is the most 'whatever' change I've ever seen.

Maokai's rework is just as questionable, they really gave him nothing that would make him want to be a tank. They stuffed so much power into his brush camping, but ideally you want the highest damage you can for this so mage Maokai is just a logical consequence. Until they give him something to make him want to be a tank he will be a mage, even if his buildpath changes up a little it will probably still stay as a mage like MPen based build.

Sejuani's a clear example of Riot not understanding how to put together the pieces they had. Nothing on her kit is too individually garbage but Riot just made a few too many bad choices on her. They crammed all the power on her kit into her E and passive in her 20% max HP burst and ally interaction. In doing so they just made a kit that isn't that good to play, you just feel like an E/passive bot who's power is tied to their melee allies and who's other abilities only exist to serve E and passive. Your ult feels utterly abysmal and doesn't even feel like an ultimate and W only exists to stack E. This is made even more frustrating by the fact that her W is a well designed kit-linchpin ability. It feels like the sort of ability you'd want to design a kit around but is instead sidelined for her less interesting Braum-passive.

The item changes also aren't good, it doesn't take a genius to work this out. Tanks didn't get good new itemisation choices outside of maybe Adaptive Helm. They lost GA, Rand's, Cinder and Sunfire either entirely or to the realms of utter trash though. Don't even get me started on what they did to GA either, that's just an utterly terrible idea.

So yes, I do consider this midseason a failure already. There's just so much wrong with it. It felt like a rushed set of changes that noone really payed any time or attention to.

Thilmer11 votes

A fail is a fail, and I will always complain about fails.

Deal with it.

Spoofghoul10 votes

{quoted}

That doesnt mean riot purposefully did these things, and doesnt mean this is what they want.

That is actually 10x worse then doing it on purpose as this suggests they are completely clueless and don't care and just change shit because they feel like it without having a clue about what might happen

Mistakes can be fixed but being a clueless clown well that isn't so easy to fix is it

And i think we can assume the latter is the case since i have seen every class update so far and i'm less then impressed to put it nicely

Cavesloth3 votes

The fact that they didn't do it on purpose makes it waaaaaaay worse. It means they have no clue what they are doing. Most of the time when they post about something they are about to change something and the community says, "that's a bad idea" they blunder forward with it, and OMG IT WAS A BAD IDEA. They honestly need to replace entire balance team with more people like those on the rework team. They seem to know what they are doing, whereas the balance team seems to want to make everything flashy for the LCS. Well guess what, the majority of players do not play at that level and good portion of us could give a crap about it, we just want to play a fun game. Riots balance team seems to be intent on fixing this whole "the game being fun" problem.

Fed by Snu Snu10 votes

If intention was enough to constitute a success, then the concept of fail wouldn't exist.

It doesn't matter if Riot didn't intend this outcome, the thing is they did not achieve what they intended. And that is...a fail.

1995 2017RiP Eva9 votes

is not a fail? the 3 tanks they remake they failed hard to make them balanced.

The items exepct the MR ones are all useless now (hELLO SUNFIRE AND JG FIRE)

It didnt fix any of the tank issue

In long terms sej would need 2-3 patches of nerfs in order to be balanced which translate 3 WHOLE MONTHS.....in 3 months we are already setting up for the WORLD patch...so nobody would care for the tank uptade any more....

So as you see ITS A MAJOR fail

kasfas9 votes

Mid season is a massive failure as far as I'm concerned. Changes to items to shove them so far into niches that they already covered which make them unviable.

New items which either follow the niche property of the others and become near useless, or are so powerful that they are mandatory.

Zac with his confusing af q, maokai with his saplings, and sej with her e and passive.

Plus no sources of true damage or pen in kits were nerfed despite the OBVIOUS fact that these champions would become so much more powerful.

And % hp scalings becoming much worse on average.

All of these things were explicit nerfs to tanks despite whatever riot tries to tell you and I hate it.

THE RlVER KlNG9 votes

All class updates have been demonstrable failures so I didn't even have my hopes up high enough to feel let down

Darkdemon6537 votes

{quoted}

These reworks change a lot of things. Sometimes these things are quite large, and need multiple patches to fix.

Sej is broken Zac is sub-par Maokai is a mage support

That doesnt mean riot purposefully did these things, and doesnt mean this is what they want. They all have their respective changes incoming, and will take several patches in order to fairly judge the results of the reworks.

That doesn't mean it wasn't a failure. Riot did not achieve what they wanted (or at least claimed to have wanted). None of the champions came out the better (in terms of design). That is a failure. No one believes Riot intentionally fucked up. No one is saying Riot can't fix it. It still failed. What might happen cannot change that.

Skorch3 votes

None of the champions came out the better (in terms of design).

BASED ON WHOS SCALE? AND FOR WHAT? If Riot CALLED something unhealthy and changed it into something that is broken at the moment BUT HAS A BETTER DESIGN BY THEIR STANDARDS, then thats a success.

Who the hell judges what designs are good or bad? Sure i am AOK with people not liking new Zac cause hes different. But that doesnt mean the design itself is bad.

LankPants7 votes

Who the hell judges what designs are good or bad?

Typically the mains of said champions. I don't see any mains of any of the 3 champions leaping to the defence of the reworks.

All 3 of the reworks utterly fail to appeal to the mains of the champions, that alone is enough to label them as failures IMO.

Skorch1 votes

I utterly hate shitting on Yasuo i think its a tired meme. But a community and mains of a champion DOES NOT judge innate healthy design.

LankPants6 votes

Disregarding the first sentence because it seems to just lack any real context.

If you're not designing a rework to appeal to at least a fair portion of the champions mains then what the fuck was the point? It's not like these reworks made the champions more "healthy" or insert any other buzzword you want right there. Zac is exactly the same champion but far clunkier, Maokai is just a mess and Sejuani's game health is considerably worse since the rework.

Sejuani is considerably less healthy for the game due cancerous mechanics on her E and passive. Her usefulness isn't actually defined by how good she is as a player, it's defined by her melee allies. Champions like Irelia, Yasuo and Leona are just as good if not better at stacking her E than she is. Once it's stacked she gets to nuke you for 20%, because everyone loves it when tanks have tons of burst right?

This is all before mentioning just how garbage she feels to play even with her overtuned numbers. Sejuani is, was and will continue to be unless Riot commits to major changes a complete failure.

Skorch1 votes

It didnt make sense because you disregarded the first sentance.

Yasuo by a large margin is considered a broken champion at a kit level. And (at least people like to think) His MAINS deny this saying they are balanced.

So considering the POINT of a rework is to fix unhealthy champion designs (like to a lot of people Yasuo ), there is a chance a main may not see it as unhealthy, as such reworks are not to make champions better for their mains, but make them healthier. And its hard to tell a healthy mechanic from an unhealthy one when proper balancing hasnt had a chance to happen yet.

LankPants5 votes

Now that you've actually added context it makes far more sense.

I'd personally disagree that Yasuo's broken at a kit level, I think there were some very poor design choices made when Riot was working on Yasuo and I think he's somewhat overtuned right now as well as being generally overloaded but I wouldn't go as far as to say broken at a kit level.

Even still, if Yasuo were to get a rework and Yasuo mains overwhelmingly hated it, it would be a bad rework. There's ways to fix some of the more problematic elements in Yasuo's kit without just making him feel like utter shit and that should be the priority, even over balance.

I'm under the impression that the Zac changes make his kit feel like shit, I don't have much first hand knowledge, I'm not a Zac player but from everything I've heard his ult feels significantly worse to use and his Q ranges from a marginal improvement to a moderate annoyance.

I also know first hand that the Sejuani changes make her feel like shit to play. Even if she's more powerful the way that power is expressed is terrible. So much of her power is locked to her ally rather than her and so much of her power is in her absurd shatter damage. Neither her E nor the damage component of her passive actually feel fun to play with and they're certainly the worst parts of her kit to play against. Her ult and her W just end up feeling crippled due to the amount of power shifted onto her E and passive, her ult doesn't even feel like an ult and her W just feels like an extension of her E, which is a shame because it is certainly the most interesting of her post rework abilities.

So no, I can tell that the Sejuani rework is a failure and balancing ultimately doesn't even factor in. She just feels terrible. I'm told that this is also true for Zac as well.

Skorch1 votes

I also personally agree Yasuo isnt awful, he is just a useful example.

And personally i dont know how things FEEL. I dont play these champions. However on PAPER, a lot of original issues were at least ADRESSED. They may not be perfect now, but in time and tweaks the changes may end up better overall.

And i have seen firsthand good Zac ults, and they are terrifying. I dont know how bad this new ult FEELS, but i assume its not as bad as people are making it out to be. Hell it might be infinetly more "fun to use" with a small tweak of time to arm.

LankPants5 votes

And personally i dont know how things FEEL. I dont play these champions

Then who the fuck are you to judge the success of the champs?

You seem to lack a basic understanding of why the people who played these champs before even played them. You also lack some very basic game design knowledge. Balance isn't even that important here, what matters first is how a champ feels play and play against. You can have the most broken champ in the game, if they feel like shit to play and feel fair to play against very few people will even give a fuck.

The thing is these changes without fail made the champions both feel less fair to play against and less fun to play. Just on that alone it's fair to call them out as failures.

Skorch1 votes

You dont have to play champions to understand them, that ideology will get you nowhere. Balance =/=not important. But also what people WANT =/= unimportant.

The only thing that is important is overall healthiness in the new kit. You know what, people might not like the new changes, does that make them bad? NO. As much as it sucks to say it, if you like something that was changed, for the only reason of unhealthiness, you either accept the changes, or find something else to like. How is feels to play is almost irrelevant. You might not like new Sejuani, but i guarantee she'll find new mains.

And that covers how it FEELS to play but what about how it feels to play AGAINST? Well i can damn say its too early to tell. I can say that EASILY. YES Sejuani feels like a monster, does that make her kit unfair initially? No. In fact from an OPPONENTS view (which since i stated that i dont play those champions that means i DO understand this) I dont feel SIGNIFICANCE in a difference in unfairness. Some things might be dumb right now. But i cant fairly judge strength over an unbalanced kit. And the actual kit itself still has similar strengths and weaknesses than before.

LankPants3 votes

You dont have to play champions to understand them, that ideology will get you nowhere. Balance =/=not important. But also what people WANT =/= unimportant.

Please then, impart your vast knowledge about Sejuani onto me. Tell me some things that I, the Sejuani main with over 1000 games on old Sej and already 34 games on new Sej don't know. Tell me how Riot made her more healthy. I can tell you exactly why they didn't, infact I've been saying it all throughout this thread if you'd stop to read for a second. Expertise grants knowledge, moreso than anything else.

Also where do you think your ideology gets you? Balance above all else? Come flip a coin with me. Perfectly balanced, no actual gameplay. At least my philosophy taken to an extreme gets you a potentially quite fun game even if it's not balanced.

The only thing that is important is overall healthiness in the new kit. You know what, people might not like the new changes, does that make them bad? NO. As much as it sucks to say it, if you like something that was changed, for the only reason of unhealthiness, you either accept the changes, or find something else to like. How is feels to play is almost irrelevant. You might not like new Sejuani, but i guarantee she'll find new mains.

Oh the game health argument. It's not like that's been refuted a million times. New Sej is far less healthy to play against as well. Her E creates some frankly abysmal situations. Sejuani can land a point and click 2 second stun after doing literally no work just because a bruiser gets on top of you, then she can nuke you for 20% or even 40% at a range. She has some abysmal play patterns, I didn't even need to play her to see this, but playing her has certainly confirmed it.

And that covers how it FEELS to play but what about how it feels to play AGAINST? Well i can damn say its too early to tell.

What world do you live in? There's people who have 20+ games against Sej, but even personally after playing 6 or 7 VS her I can say that her game patterns, not just balance are complete cancer.

I dont feel SIGNIFICANCE in a difference in unfairness.

Based on everything I've seen, the community would disagree.

And the actual kit itself still has similar strengths and weaknesses than before.

Just no. Old Sej was a top tier teamfighter and effectively the hypercarry amongst tanks. New Sej spikes at around 9, she's optimally played in either small skirmishes or even just as a solo splitpusher from the top lane. She has limited DPS where she used to have a lot, and now she has insane burst. She's nothing like old Sej in terms of strengths and weaknesses.

overall healthiness

I love worthless buzzwords.

Skorch1 votes

Im just going to stop arguing with you cause all i see is 0 discussion repeatedly spouting "This is different, not fun, and broken"

All ill say is New Sejuani is a lot more dynamic with none of that "press button to deal damage near you, press button to damage things you previously did damage to, skillshot teamwide CC"

Its frankly plainly fucking obvious she needed a rework.

LankPants2 votes

Im just going to stop arguing with you cause all i see is 0 discussion repeatedly spouting "This is different, not fun, and broken"

That's because it's specifically not being fun that makes a rework a failure, I mean Skarner's technically a fairly balanced champ, still a completely garbage rework.

I never mentioned either of the other two, but your argument's so shit that you have to make a strawman of mine just to try to make it look better.

All ill say is New Sejuani is a lot more dynamic with none of that "press button to deal damage near you, press button to damage things you previously did damage to, skillshot teamwide CC"

You realise that's literally what her E-AA/other ability combo does just in a slightly different order right? You press a button to follow up CC for a melee ally, then you nuke them with your passive. At least old Sej was DoT so you could potentially avoid it, new Sej is just "fuck you dodge my Irelia's AAs, good luck".

Its frankly plainly fucking obvious she needed a rework.

And the rework they gave her didn't help anything, it just created new problems and pissed off her mains.

Dextix LT7 votes

[deleted]

Meep Man1 votes

What if in 7.12 everything gets refined is amazing?

LankPants5 votes

That wouldn't change the fact that the midseason patch was a failure?

7.12 would be an amazing success, 7.10 would still be an astonishing failure.

Skorch2 votes

No as the important changes came about in midseason. The meanted ideals OF that patch wouldve been fixed. Balance issues dont dictate success or failure.

LankPants6 votes

These changes aren't fixable with simple balance changes. For them to be a success Riot would have to do a complete 180 on the ideals of the patch. 7.10 is a failure, make no mistake.

Dextix LT5 votes

A fix does not remove a failure.

The update is still a failure.

The fix can be a success, but it does not remove the faulure.

Thilmer4 votes

Now Sejuani is highly unbalanced and need nerfs, but also is more boring for the players that pick her.

Zac is a total fail. -10% winrate in a patch means something.

Maokai now is an AP support; I called Indiana Jones and Sherlock Holmes to see if they can find the logic in that.

And what else? Oh, yeah, the AD ítems receiving gratuitous buffs, including turning Guardian Angel into an AD ítem that hipercarries are abusing.

The patch is a complete fail.

Skorch1 votes

Im not gonna call the Zac rework a fail, until its obvious buffs to him mean nothing as his changes show a distinct reason on why hes weak. Essentially, if he gets buffed and is completely fine, then thats not a fail. Balance isnt perfect out the gate.

I personally think AP Maokai support is an oversight on his E changes that i BELEIVE have changes to scaling on PBE RIGHT NOW, so we'll see.

AND GA IS NOTHING NEW. God damnit, im sick of seeing this. IT ISNT BEING ABUSED ON HYPERCARRIES, IT WAS MEANT FOR THEM TO BE USED. It WASNT being used by the people wanted so THATS why it got changed. Changing the MR to AD DIDNT BREAK THE ITEM

Flemman3 votes

zac failure is simple, they sell us a great Q mechanic, but the displacement distance make it so Q collision fail most of the time if you are not on top of the target, imo reducing the Q sticking duration but making it so the unit aways colide if you manage to get the second Q would be enough to call it a day.

for mao, as they want him to jungle and tied all is jungle clear in is E, I can't see change that will make him leave the botlane, will just move to tank with level 1 E dealing 8% max health and maxing root instead

For GA well, giving it ad change the item in the way that it's not bad to do it 2 item when you dominate, defensive stat early on carry without tradeoff can be problematic

Skorch1 votes

Ga tradeoff is always lower damage, even with 40AD there are many MANY better damage items.

Even then rushing it 2nd is still not the best idea.

Flemman2 votes

if it has an actual price maybe, but 2400 gold is too short.

I would take an ennemy ad who rush another damage only item as second over a ga second because, in the first case, come back is possible after a good trade. With ga, it's just a snowball fiesta

DragonShea4 votes

#Riotsuck@balancingtanks.

But let's get real.

Sej needs some nerfs.

Zac Just needed his Q to be more impactful, fuck his new Ult.

Maokai needs some fixin' I can't judge because I don't understand his kit well enough.

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