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The game is such a mess right now people dont even know the issue.

Skorch··298 votes·7,970 views

Talon : ADC OP Vayne : Its not me, its the support that makes me unkillable Janna : Its not MY fault i need a 300 health shield to prevent you dying from 1 auto of item 3147 Talon : See it IS you Vayne : Well I need to do damage dont I? Someone needs to kill the tank. Talon : The tanks isnt me Vayne : Thats just the cost Maokai : God I am just walking health, I need damage or I cant survive lane Jax & Vayne : But now you are 1v1ing US. Maokai : But I need to be able to survive top in order to tank. Vayne : But I need to not die to you I can be the one to kill you. Assassins definetly aren't. Talon : Thats because you are to busy 1v1ing me. Maokai : Did they try nerfing support? Janna : It's not me... Jax : Its probably you. Janna : BUT OTHER THAN PEEL SHIELDS ARE ALL THE DEFENSE WE GET. Talon : BUT THEN WE CAN'T KILL THE ADC. Janna : THEN TRY NOT 1 SHOTTING THE ADC SO ME SHIELD DOESN'T HAVE TO BE HALD THEIR HEALTH. Xerath : Mages amirite? Talon : Shut up mages. Xerath : REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE Talon : REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE Janna : REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE Vayne : REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE Maokai : REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE Jax : REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

I see this shit on the front page every day. The game is honestly a mess right now because its just too much. Tanks defensively are inflated to all hell, So ADCs are inflated to all hell to deal with them, causing assassins to need to do millions of damage to kill them, but then ADCs arent killing tanks so supports get inflated to keep the adc alive. No 1 group is responsible.

They said that Runes were gonna be the largest patch to league to change the future. I think Riot should own up to this by making the 2nd largest patch in the history of league be midseason and just try to fix the entire mess that has happened recently.

Edit: When I posted this yesterday I didnt expect to wake up to it being the top post. And staying as such all day. Ill take this moment to just say that this isnt a "fuck Riot" or "fuck __" post. Just simply put in my opinion everything in the game feels a bit much right now. However the main point of this post is mainly to try to get through to people that any one group isnt more/less broken than the next. Just that the game as a whole feels a bit much. I enjoy the game, I think Riot does a good job. This isnt meant to fill an agenda, or to insert your own agenda like ive seen a little of. Nonetheless I enjoy the actual debate going on and applaud the comments discussing game balancing with a minimal amount of REEEing.

128 Comments

Mizaya88 votes

Don't know why this is being downvoted, it's about as real as it gets on here lol.

Hate to say it, but support itemization powercreep is most likely the reason why people are mad. They may not realize it but there was once a time when assassins and mages could solo carry if they got fed enough. Not the case now with all the anti-burst in the game. And The increased global gold gain as compared to individual gold gain.

Honestly I think Riot should develop more supports/support itemization that will counter the shields/heals etc. Defensive support itemization inherently benefits sustained damage dealers... offensive will benefit assasins, burst mages, etc

Skorch21 votes

{quoted}

Don't know why this is being downvoted, it's about as real as it gets on here lol.

Hate to say it, but support itemization powercreep is most likely the reason why people are mad. They may not realize it but there was once a time when assassins and mages could solo carry if they got fed enough. Not the case now with all the anti-burst in the game. And The increased global gold gain as compared to individual gold gain.

Honestly I think Riot should develop more supports/support itemization that will counter the shields/heals etc. Defensive support itemization inherently benefits sustained damage dealers... offensive will benefit assasins, burst mages, etc

If i had to guess why its being downvoted. Probably because I didnt play a certain angle. I didnt blame 1 sole thing.

And as I stated. I think the only way for Riot to fix the game is to just all at once nerf everything.

Destructor2425 votes

If you nerf everything tho, wouldn't it still be at the same place? Riot should nerf everything but not everything to the same scale/degree. What this game needs I think are new starter items that promote non snowballing games and they need to make ADC itemization go up. The standard vayne build(a late game hypercary) is berserkers, Static shyv, IE, Mercurial, Rapid fire cannon, and GA. This amounts to 15,700 gold. To put that in perspective, a tank build, for instance maokai, is tabis, sunfire, spirit visage, Righteous Glory, thornmail, and locket. This amounts to 14,550. These two builds should not be so close in price. In theory an ADC will be the person with the most farm, most kills, and highest damage. So they will end up having the most gold. Tanks will have good farm, but more assists than kills. So because of this they will have less gold. ADC itemization needs to have an increase in gold value. Just sayng

Divewing11 votes

It makes everything take longer

People are fine with all this new crap, it just all gets vomited on them way too quickly. The issue isn't so much that these things exist, it's that they are all so effective that it becomes an asolute; the assassin is fed so adc and supp are worthless, the tank is fed so the assassin is worthless, the adc is fed so everyone is worthless.

If all of these were toned down, people wouldn't die so quickly, leaving more room to OMG ACTUALLY COUNTER STUFF!!!

But that assumes Rito would actually follow through with this kind of change (directly opposes what they want pro play to do).

Syrdon11 votes

It's not only "support itemization powercreep". It's also the fact that, while allowing support to be actually impactful they didn't remove all the (necessary back then) means ADC had to peel/survive/sustain. Same things with new runes. They wanted to make games faster by introducing more golds and more dmg. But they didn't change anything to help early champs stay relevant.

The main problem is itemization. Maybe the changes to AP itemization planned for 8.4 will change something, but AD and tank need to be looked at too.

LoL since juggernauts patch seems like a game in beta. Each single class update broke the game in its way. And it's not over yet ! Riot is changing the way the game is designed. Maybe once they're done with design they'll take a look at balance.

Karfuss8 votes

{quoted}

Don't know why this is being downvoted, it's about as real as it gets on here lol.

Hate to say it, but support itemization powercreep is most likely the reason why people are mad.

See, I both agree and disagree with that. There has been a support itemization powercreep, but then tank items got massive flat stat increases and ADCs got gold reduction across the board on their items alongside base AD increases. The power creeping hasn't been limited to just supports.

No 1 group is responsible.

Is probably the truest statements with regards to balance I've seen on the boards.

I've said it in another thread, every item needs a stat squish. Reduce AD across the board, reduce health across the board, CDR doesn't need to be on every item. Rework crit for the love of all that is holy, like Riot said they were going to do (or at least look at) seasons ago. Leave resistances alone IMHO, they got shafted in favour of more health.

Then Riot has something tangible to work with, and can consider adding more items to counteract the meta without worrying about everyone that isn't a tank getting one shot bursted by everyone that isn't a tank. Class updates dropped a nuclear bomb on balance, then the runes update was a natural disaster following suit, so time to start rebuilding from ground zero.

Until Riot admits to themselves that there isn't any balance, and they need to do some drastic changes, I'm afraid it's only going to get worse. But even then, I don't doubt things will get worse before they get better.

The Yetii Rider4 votes

Riot doesn't want people to be able to solo carry, that's their entire pitch the last two years. They want this to be a team game, that was the purpose of Dynamic Queue, the purpose of showing club tags in the game screen, the purpose of getting boxes when your premade gets an S, they want everyone to be playing together and coordinating as a team.

Winterwings9 votes

You make it sound as if that's a inherently bad thing...

"HOW DARE THEY MAKE CHANGES THAT REWARD PEOPLE PLAYING AS A TEAM IN A TEAM GAME..."

Anatera5 votes

It's being downvoted because there are dumb people out there that thing all of these problems are actually good things.

NorthernRedStar30 votes

The current game state is the result of piling changes before fixing issues caused by the previous ones.

ˉˉˉˉˉˉ28 votes

Riot is digging themselves deeper and deeper into this mess, rather than swallowing their pride, admit they fucked up in gameplay balance, and start almost from scratch, or at least where earlier seasons were.

That includes Herald, Drag, First Blood Tower, etc.

Of course, keep the Quality of Life changes. I enjoy those very much. But everything else? Please rework (and not in the way they rework champions).

Sõna23 votes

I want to get back to the day when I bitch about Syndra's one shot button. I want to get back to the day when I bitch about Cait's OP attack range. But I don't want to talk about, how Zoe's Q one shot me, how ADC "Burst per Second" more than Assassin, how tank can destroy the game so easily.

Why Aftershock has to deal damage? why not changing aftershock's procs where user will be receiving 10-20% damage reduction or any other shit after it procs instead of some AOE insane damage? Why Maokai's attack speed is so fast? What happen to the game?

Zed genius14 votes

Shut up mages.

my boy Talon

Seekêr13 votes

I like the new talents. The problem, In my opinion, is that they have a support role PERIOD.

The game needs a round 2, same thing dota did.

They realized the game was too difficult to CHANGE so they REBUILT it. And honestly, I think dota 2 is more balanced.

One reason is that dota 2 has no support role. The support is a glorified jungler, meaning they can balance each lanes' roles without worrying about the problem child, adc.

The issue with having adc be protected by supports is that you create a class that includes 2 variables, the support and the adc. This is an issue because it is IMPOSSIBLE to keep mid laners and tanks from abusing the support role or to keep laners from abusing support items without adc's becoming overpowered

its an endless cycle. This game needs to be rebuilt entirely if riot wants to keep their position as kings of esports

the only alternative that I can think of to removing the support role is to give supports a unique summoner spell that lets them build support items(give it the smite treatment, problem solved rito)

TLDR; balancing adc's along with their supports is impossible without rebuilding the game.

Corrupt Bliss3 votes

IMO Support is a really fun position. I've been playing support for the last season now throughout ranked, and I really love it. In normals I'll play other stuff (my duo friend and I are trying to introduce melee bot laners), but for ranked I really do enjoy playing support. If Riot were to rework the game and remove the support position, or re-tailor it into a glorified jungler, I'd be pretty sad.

ZT Xperimentor3 votes

Support doesn't mean to be the babysitting one champion, but to setup all their teamates for victory; whether it be coverfire, engage, peel, heals, ext.

Seekêr5 votes

I'm not saying a support isnt fun to play, I'm saying it is a balancing nightmare.

EinarUlfar12 votes

Need to dial back damage a tad, dial supports items back or give Support lower base stats/damage in exchange for the strength of their items now, increase Crit item costs, and overall slow the game back down a bit.

The kits and stats and generally most COMPONENTS of League weren’t designed to be scaled up to faster paced play. And it’s really starting to show.

YuGiHo11 votes

mages are the only balanced thing in this game? i can believe that. the only thing that ever frustrates me vs mages is item 3157 but now everyone has it.

no to toxic11 votes

{quoted}

Xerath : Mages amirite?

This is accurate

Recon121211 votes

At what point does riot go to the boards see all these posts and actually do something about it

ProfDrDeath8 votes

Good argument. But, to fix the problem, where does one start?

My suggestion would be to start at the ADC issue (this comes from an ADC player, mind you):

  • Nerf Statikk Shiv in particular (that item accounts for a lot of ADC burstiness) and Zeal Upgrades cost in general (2900 gold or so)
  • Infinity Edge to 3800 gold (and possibly 75 AD), or 4000 gold and 75-80 AD, and
  • Retool Cloak of Agility: Builds from BF Sword + Brawler's Glove, total 2000 gold, 45-50 AD & 20% Crit Chance; an intermediate powerspike item for crit ADCs to not go all the way back to "ADC in 2k17 lul". Builds into Essence Reaver and Infinity Edge.
  • Lord Dominik's and Mortal Reminder go back to 45% bonus Armor Penetration to better deal with tanks from the ADC side and
  • New effect for Black Cleaver: Unique passive - Last Whisper: Gain 10-15% bonus Armor Penetration against targets with 6 stacks of the Cleaver debuff (to allow sustained damage fighters, Cleaver's intended users, to better deal with tanks, without making the item overbearing if stacked with Last Whisper on the same user)
  • An intermediate item from Pickaxe and Vampiric Sceptre to build into Bloodthirster (+ BF Sword), Death's Dance (+ Warhammer) and Ravenous Hydra (+ Tiamat). Again, an intermediate power consolidation item on the respective build paths to allow smoothened power progression and the ability to sit on a mid-tier item. All three of these items suffer from their 3-component build paths unless they are built first item with lots of open item slots. This would help both ADCs (BT and DD) and fighters (RH and DD).
xToxicOsirisx2 votes

I gotta give it to you, the changes you listed are the only ones that I've seen that actually makes an effort to not completely shaft adcs, like "nerf crit damage to 150% total ad". They actually seem like good changes too. Well done.

General Esdeath 8 votes

3 things they need to do:

  1. Lower the damage in this game on EVERYONE and EVERYTHING. Everyone deals too much damage.

  2. Increase the cost of crit/AD items to even it out, don't lower the cost of anything else.

  3. Make towers stronger to stop the 4man dives at bot lane for first turret. Buff bot tower and towers overall.

From there we're in a better spot and we can start working on one thing at a time, like tanks dealing good base damage on high CD as opposed to high base damage that scales up at lower CDs.

Votable Jester1 votes

I'd be careful with the tower buff though. Lowering damage will already make tower dives a bit more dangerous, and they should still be possible.

General Esdeath 2 votes

I meant more as defense, rather than offense. I think tower dives should be possible, it's just that early dives are way too safe for what they are. If bot tower is going to be weaker, it should at least have more attack speed so minions don't linger as long and dives are more dangerous.

AMYS GRAVE7 votes

Well they've powercrept their game in more than one way....

Lil Homie busta7 votes

Sometimes i feel fucking sad about this game.

Imagine this: you're a bruiser, and you're near your bruiser jungle. Bot lane decides to take a tower, and you guys decide to defend it.

No imagine, what can 2 bruisers do to a ADC chopping down your tower from distance, while having stopwatch, a nami support with aegis, heal, exaust and a self peel skill? I read a lot of people here in the boards saying "But you tried to 2v1 the bot lane, what did you expect?" when most of the time this isn't true. I've lost the count of how many times i see a bot lane kitting to death 3 or more people alone. Damn, last week my enemy Varus with 2 kills managed to dive our tower, kill 3 people while eating their skills and tower shots, and survived with half of health. That was a solid +1k of heal and shield.

Where's the fairness in this?? How many years we will have to play the through entire game like a pussy because the enemy ADC, who is capable of rushing 2 towers in less than half minute, has 10 safe nets?

Raiyza6 votes

Just buff towers and nerf overall damage.....

That's all.

Seekêr3 votes

nah bro. 60 minute games in s3 were frickin painful

PB4UAME3 votes

Season three game averages were 30-45 minutes, dafuq you smoking.

Raiyza3 votes

You like these shitty 20 minute games?

deadlychuck6 votes

Riot's change in philosophy with the introduction of the assassin class (back around 2014), which introduced their new core rock-paper-scissors design, that being Marksmen > Tank > Assassin > Marksmen (all other roles seem to come as an after thought), ended up creating an arms race, because that's not the natural roles of those classes. Under the assumption that each class gets to utilize their tools more than a single time in a fight, because realistically this traces back to riot trying to redesign their game to accommodate fights which only last for a single rotation of abilities.

But once you stop making every fight last < 5 seconds, that whole rock-paper-scissors is backwards.

Tanks, which have a lot of defensive tools which have gaps, that assassins with their superior mobility and burst, are intended to take advantage. Assassins, are suppose to be inherently further away from marksmen making them a much harder target to approach and burst, and in the instance that they fail to burst, they've exhausted most of their mobility and damage, only to be a sitting duck for the continuous damage of a marksmen. Marksmen are intended to lose to tanks in an extended fight, because after maybe 3 rotations of their primary abilities, they've substantially cut down on the damage from the marksmen. Yet in doing so, this creates openings for assassins (Which are much closer to the front line) to time their damage and split through the armor of the tanks.

TekkenPlayer4 votes

So assassins - borderline OP mages - balanced supports - borderline OP adc - OP bruisers - garbage tanks - OP juggernauts - ???

osamatazz3 votes

14 games in a row with bots on my team can u at least get rid of the bot problem and stop being lazy this is absolutly rediculous

Saitho Orihara3 votes

I don't see this specificly about know, I always saw those complain. The only thing that changes are the specific champions and the reason why people blame Riot. In my book a tank that catches a squishy ADC, if he doesn't have enough lifesteal to win or to flee him, why did he got there in the first place ? Also, what was he doing alone so close a tank ? Either he overextended and deserved to die or he was alone not waiting for his team or his team not following him. Assassins one shotting ? They always one shotted and will always one shot. It's kind of their job and except for Zoe who can one shot a tank with her E and some other AP assassin that still deals very good damage on tanks, build a bit of armor and that lethality does nothing. Supports peeling too much ? Ardent Censer meta was cancer yes, there was a problem, I stopped playing the game at that meta, I refuse the free elo that playing a shielding support was. But right now ? Alistar ain't got a shield, his a cow that demolishes your team if they feel to hug themself. Braum is not as braindead OP as Janna was and even there a Braum can easily Overextended his protection if he's the only frontline. And the whole ADC dealing to much damage, they do the same damage as before, the big difference is that they get relevant very fast because of the lack of free defense people can get against them vs the good free damage they get from runes. But everyone gets free damage so those that are suppose to deal with them like an assassin for example can just jump on them and stab them "But they have a support REEEE" THEY ALWAYS HAD A SUPPORT IT'S JUST NOW PEOPLE ACTUALLY PEEL.

The major problems that the community are right is the ridiculous snowball, I don't notice it that much, I play a lot of my games with a friend who One Tricks Zilean so the games are slowed down for almost always going into late game. Zoe is ridiculously annoying, in my opinion she isn't OP, she's annoying to the point where just seeing her pick regardless of lane can make you tilt and play bad. And the lack of keystone for bruisers making most of them shit buuuuuuut Riot are currently working on it so I ain't worries. Just hoping it's not an other thing that ADCs will abuse making Riot nerf it because we can't have nice thing if ADCs always abuse it.

Okay now you can downvote, my popcorn is finally ready to watch the world burn. [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

Jinx Hunter2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Saitho Orihara,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LE6rgcVf,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2018-02-06T14:20:32.213+0000)

I don't see this specificly about know, I always saw those complain. The only thing that changes are the specific champions and the reason why people blame Riot. In my book a tank that catches a squishy ADC, if he doesn't have enough lifesteal to win or to flee him, why did he got there in the first place ? Also, what was he doing alone so close a tank ? Either he overextended and deserved to die or he was alone not waiting for his team or his team not following him. Assassins one shotting ? They always one shotted and will always one shot. It's kind of their job and except for Zoe who can one shot a tank with her E and some other AP assassin that still deals very good damage on tanks, build a bit of armor and that lethality does nothing. Supports peeling too much ? Ardent Censer meta was cancer yes, there was a problem, I stopped playing the game at that meta, I refuse the free elo that playing a shielding support was. But right now ? Alistar ain't got a shield, his a cow that demolishes your team if they feel to hug themself. Braum is not as braindead OP as Janna was and even there a Braum can easily Overextended his protection if he's the only frontline. And the whole ADC dealing to much damage, they do the same damage as before, the big difference is that they get relevant very fast because of the lack of free defense people can get against them vs the good free damage they get from runes. But everyone gets free damage so those that are suppose to deal with them like an assassin for example can just jump on them and stab them "But they have a support REEEE" THEY ALWAYS HAD A SUPPORT IT'S JUST NOW PEOPLE ACTUALLY PEEL.

The major problems that the community are right is the ridiculous snowball, I don't notice it that much, I play a lot of my games with a friend who One Tricks Zilean so the games are slowed down for almost always going into late game. Zoe is ridiculously annoying, in my opinion she isn't OP, she's annoying to the point where just seeing her pick regardless of lane can make you tilt and play bad. And the lack of keystone for bruisers making most of them shit buuuuuuut Riot are currently working on it so I ain't worries. Just hoping it's not an other thing that ADCs will abuse making Riot nerf it because we can't have nice thing if ADCs always abuse it.

Okay now you can downvote, my popcorn is finally ready to watch the world burn. [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/pLyobNsBDHI/hqdefault.jpg

Northmund3 votes

So what you mean it is a team effort to make a game mess. Sounds riot style.

YerroFever3 votes

I'm just annoyed they keep ignoring the runes and how they've basically made the game less fun to play. Inspiration runes were pretty bad at first and I understand why they're putting some time into them but the rate at which things are changing, it feels like they're content with how not fun the new rune system is and are just like

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2016/08/05/us/05onfire1_xp/05onfire1_xp-master768-v2.jpg

Can we get some kind of confirmation from a Rioter that they're looking into the other rune trees to make this game more fun to play? I've played for years and I'm finding myself wanting to play other games when before I was on league for more than my daily win.

HarrisonOwns3 votes

The solution isn't as complicated as it sounds.

Beginning of solution:

REMOVE DAMAGE FROM EVERYONE IN THE GAME! (Items, too. Way too much bullshit free damage from items on hit/casted.)

Continuation of solution:

Now you can truly work on balance because one-shotting/one-rotationing someone isn't in everyone's kit.

BOOM! MIC DROP!

We've been saying this for almost a year straight now.

InTheory2 votes

Came here expecting some random rant - pleasant surprised and upvoted for the well thought and funny dialogue

Lothàrs Edge2 votes

It's because this game's concept is a simplified moba. Instead of having creative, unique item building, compositions & skill point distribution, we have:

Armor to counter AD Resistance to counter AP AD? - build AD AP? - build AP Meta-sheep lanes and socially-designated or assigned roles.

There's less you can do to mitigate a poor lane match-up. You can't optimize to build around your counter often, you can't abuse AI in order to shift map pressure, you just have to sit there and take it in the ass. This problem is further emphasized by a lack of willingness to change one's playstyle to be more adaptable in general.

I've never tried to cooperate more as a team than back when I was playing Captain's Mode on Dota 2. The picks/bans were alternated in a balanced manner and had separate pick/ban stages (I'm not sure why this isn't a promoted mode).

Basically Lol's champ select mode is "pray for the best". Everybody gets to ban ASAP and by doing that, you hope you're not going against an OP champion, or one that will counter your lane. Whereas in a mode like CM, the captains have the option to 'fake' compositions or shut the other team down from fully actualizing their comp.

Then upon pick/ban stages being completed, teammates have the option of... diversifying their lanes. Maybe we'll put two top. Maybe two mid. Maybe 3 bot. The way to play is less rigid, more adaptable & consequentially, more fun and balanced. It has less to do with being restricted by picks/counters and gives more leeway to skill-based matchups because of creativity & opportunity.

Kaeblen2 votes

I love it when nobody knows what to complain about--it means things are actually balanced pretty well.

Yes, you could argue that EVERYTHING is overpowered, and that the slightest thing could just "flip the table" destroying everything on it. But until that tragic event happens, I'm enjoying the time when no one thing is obviously dominant over all the others.

RooShar902 votes

Riot is such a fuckin piece of shit. Game is full of bugs, riot is full of lies. They said they improved BE so it's much more worthy than IP ever was... Yeah sure whatever u say... Why do u say that only ranked games gonna be disabled during a patch which turns out is notning more than a maintenance so u disabled the whole game for a while. Why the fuck do u always lie about things? This game in the other hand just got much worse and it still gets. Will u guys ever return to the old shine or league player have to deal with this shit? Btw not to mention that everytime when i want to start a custom game the game just crashes and it sais 'unable to connect, please check your Internet connection and try again' even when loading screen is on 100%. GJ rito ;))

Pumping Iron1 votes

tldr?

LichKing2347 votes

TL :DR every class is broken but mages

Disembark7 votes

Except that mages being broken is a major reason you don’t see assassins mid. If supports being strong/assassins being weak was the problem, then Assassins wouldn’t be so prevelant in the jungle.

Or are we not gonna act like mages have dominated the mid lane for 2+ seaasons and everytime something contests them they get nerfed? Also are we gonna act like the AP itemization rework ONLY hurt mages? When in reality it made them HUGE powerhouses early/mid for late game damage - when they’re still kept relevant via utility and CC.

They start whining the second anything besides mages are even good mid. And then also take their turns dominating top/support.

But then they hypocritically call out ADCs for doing the exact same thing.

LibroMastro1 votes

Just nerf the fucking tanks

Lios Ashenblade14 votes

Yeah, they should do 0 damage and hope to god their team will win, or they get to die very slowly.... if only item 3151 there item 3153 was item 3071 a item 3035 way Lulu to Vayne shut Tristana down Vi tanks!

DCYOUNG8885 votes

Don't forget Fiora Fiora.

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