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Assassins, as a whole, ARENT weak. Their targets are just too strong.

Skorch··110 votes·5,322 views

I need to nip this in the bud before REAL problems show up.

No Assassins arent weak.

Weak implies needing of a buff, which they don't. However, despite what im about to say they DO need help

Lets take for example a very ENCLOSED situation. Kog'maw/Jinx/Lucian whathaveyou is returning to lane with an IE and Zeal. The Talon/Zed/Kha is waiting in the brush near gromp with a Youmuus and Serrated Dirk, with a ward on the otherside of gromp. The ADC doesnt know hes there. The assassin can easily kill the ADC, no matter the delay.

A lot of people who are complaining about "OMG CANT EVEN ASSASSINATE ADC." Then shows a replay of a 10/1 Xayah, just 3 shotting a 0/5 Katarina. Of course that was gonna happen. If it was switched and a 10/1 Kat fought an 0/5 Xayah, Xayah would be gone instantly.

However they DO still have issues. Primarily, when EVEN in a nonenclosed setting they are having issues assassinating. And this isnt due to the delay.

Very rarely I see an assassin die who wasnt able to proc all of their damage. If the issue was the delay this wouldnt be the case. Instantly killing a target in 0.1 seconds when not ahead is NEVER the right way to approach things.

Duskblade and Youmuus are very nice items and the assassins themselves are able to kill.

No the issue comes from everyone else. The support who can just smash locket and their shield instantly negating ALL damage that they wouldve recieved is what is hurting assassins. ADCs who can kill the assassins before THEY have a chance to get away after not assassinating. Tanks who can peel and zone assassins to the point where the assassin will die if Maokai/Ornn just sneeze on them. The existance of stopwatch negates 1 death and sometimes causes the assassin themselves to die.

The game is not friendly to assassins right now. But its not the assassins fault. For the love of god most of them dont need a buff. There are exceptions but as a whole they dont need any buffs.

131 Comments

Sujiren39 votes

KogMaw +Lulu means kog can press his w, right click and basically go afk for 20 seconds, and return to see that he aced enemy team.

EssenceOfPoo33 votes

Lets compare two situations:

Situation #1

Khazix with item 3117 item 1412 vs KogMaw with item 3006 item 3124

vs

Situation #2

Khazix with item 3117 item 1412 vs KogMaw with item 3006 item 3124 + Lulu with item 3117 item 3504

Assuming everything else is even, I'm pretty sure almost everyone would agree that Kha'Zix would demolish Kog'Maw in the first situation. But why is it that Kha'zix can't do the same in the second situation (according to many in boards)? Well, it's quite simple, isn't it? it's a 1v2 situation. What is Kog'Maw good at? Damage. But what is he awful at? Surviving. So Lulu's presence serve to compensate for that. Why should a 1v2 situation favor the loner? bare in mind that the other side is spending two people's resources just to deal with you. 2 for 1! Besides, arent most assassins weaker in teamfights? if people don't have problem with that, why do they have an issue with a 1v2?

Daddy Ants9 votes

{quoted}

Lets compare two situations:

Situation #1

Khazix with item 3117 item 1412 vs KogMaw with item 3006 item 3124

vs

Situation #2

Khazix with item 3117 item 1412 vs KogMaw with item 3006 item 3124 + Lulu with item 3117 item 3504

Assuming everything else is even, I'm pretty sure almost everyone would agree that Kha'Zix would demolish Kog'Maw in the first situation. But why is it that Kha'zix can't do the same in the second situation (according to many in boards)? Well, it's quite simple, isn't it? it's a 1v2 situation. What is Kog'Maw good at? Damage. But what is he awful at? Surviving. So Lulu's presence serve to compensate for that. Why should a 1v2 situation favor the loner? Besides, arent most assassins weaker in teamfights? if people don't have problem with that, why are they having problem with a 1v2?

Lulu's just a toxic champion by design.

Janna also.

Bjørnetjenesten3 votes

Teemo also

EssenceOfPoo22 votes

guess who else is a toxic design?

http://gallery.drfaulken.com/d/8616-1/EVERYONE.png

BlackOnyxAltear1 votes

{quoted}

guess who else is a toxic design?

http://gallery.drfaulken.com/d/8616-1/EVERYONE.png

When everyone has a toxic design, no one does. :3

EssenceOfPoo5 votes

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11119/111198831/4738105-0182887292-image.jpg

AmazoX4 votes

{quoted}

Lets compare two situations:

Situation #1

Khazix with item 3117 item 1412 vs KogMaw with item 3006 item 3124

vs

Situation #2

Khazix with item 3117 item 1412 vs KogMaw with item 3006 item 3124 + Lulu with item 3117 item 3504

Assuming everything else is even, I'm pretty sure almost everyone would agree that Kha'Zix would demolish Kog'Maw in the first situation. But why is it that Kha'zix can't do the same in the second situation (according to many in boards)? Well, it's quite simple, isn't it? it's a 1v2 situation. What is Kog'Maw good at? Damage. But what is he awful at? Surviving. So Lulu's presence serve to compensate for that. Why should a 1v2 situation favor the loner? Besides, arent most assassins weaker in teamfights? if people don't have problem with that, why are they having problem with a 1v2?

Thing is Kha Zix is supposed to have more items than that, he is a Jungler, he has more gold in-come.

EssenceOfPoo19 votes

ok fair enough, how about this? 3 items including a duskblade on khazix? it's still 3 items vs 4. even if it's 4 vs 4, kha'zix is still down by 1 person disadvantage. that's 4 abilities on kha'zix vs more than 4 on the other side

Salson3 votes

bare in mind that the other side is spending two people's resources just to deal with you.

It's ONE lane, meaning they aren't supposed to have two players worth resources. If it's 130% or 140%, that's fine, but 200% resources in one lane breaks the game into pieces.

Moon Mom13 votes

Please explain how 2 sets of abilities and items is not double the resources.

Ahri Baka7 votes

This. If I can upvote this forever I told a lot of people in those boards the same thing but they keep downvoting me I'm pretty sure if that Kha came with a Zed there is no way for both Lulu and Kog to survive , no way

XIVIVIX2 votes

Actually, they do. item 2420 exists. summoner 4 , Lulu ult, shield, speedup, kog has created distance and now has range advantage. Wipes them both in 3 shots each.

Cavemantero19 votes

The support who can just smash locket and their shield instantly negating ALL damage that they wouldve recieved is what is hurting assassins.

This issue stems from supports needing to be crazy strong because the damage is simply too much right now. Everything post lvl 6 is a blowup now, whether its a successful assassination or not (the assassin gets blown up by the adc) thanks to LCS flashy plays and 'cuz faster games = better', so its not special anymore when it happens or not.

Disembark3 votes

But the games are the longest they’ve ever been in pro history? Legit 3 50min+ games every series in LCK. Last season it was like 32min avg

Skorch4 votes

I believe that is because Pros fear getting blown up in seconds, so they just play passive until one side gets so bored they make a big mistake and win off that. I havent watched much LCS but from what I hear thats whats going on.

Disembark3 votes

Yeah tanks can’t tank. 1 Malz ulti and tanks die even though their team is like 5 steps behind.

Fucking Shens buying QSS.

Zoe chunking Alistar for 70% without sleep.

Legit they can’t siege because waveclear too high and they get chunked too hard in .2secs to continue sieging.

Either the ADC gets 1 shot or mows everyone down. ADC damage is so high now that they don’t get to do damage - what I mean is no one even gives them an opportunity to hit. Either they keep their distance or CC lock 1 shot them.

Iffy Jarl16 votes

I may not fully agree with you but, I really can't stress how much better these boards would be if people would logically explain their argument like this and talk about REAL problems instead of, just like u said shows a replay of a 10/1 Xayah, just 3 shotting a 0/5 Katarina. then declaring the adc class op or the assassin class under powered screw rito they don't care about us.

I don't play assassins that much besides a few normals with Fizz Leblanc Talon and I can carry pretty easily if the enemy screws up but I can say firsthand from the other side,my buddy is an adc main and If I'm in the supp position chances are you aren't going to kill him early If I'm his enchanter between his heal and my heal(or exhaust) the shield I'm gnne give him and the stopwatch that he always takes you are lucky if you don't die, and If I'm his tank supp get your shots in early because I'm going straight for item 3309 (RIP), into item 3109 and there will be a item 3190 on the way.

But on the other hand If a roles job in life is to mitigate dmg shouldn't they do that thing?

p a t r i o t2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iffy Jarl,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V77NyUjg,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-01-25T08:47:40.831+0000)

I may not fully agree with you but, I really can't stress how much better these boards would be if people would logically explain their argument like this and talk about REAL problems instead of, just like u said shows a replay of a 10/1 Xayah, just 3 shotting a 0/5 Katarina. then declaring the adc class op or the assassin class under powered screw rito they don't care about us.

I don't play assassins that much besides a few normals with Fizz Leblanc Talon and I can carry pretty easily if the enemy screws up but I can say firsthand from the other side,my buddy is an adc main and If I'm in the supp position chances are you aren't going to kill him early If I'm his enchanter between his heal and my heal(or exhaust) the shield I'm gnne give him and the stopwatch that he always takes you are lucky if you don't die, and If I'm his tank supp get your shots in early because I'm going straight for item 3309 (RIP), into item 3109 and there will be a item 3190 on the way.

** But on the other hand If a roles job in life is to mitigate dmg shouldn't they do that thing?**

I say this frequently that every class should be able to do their job, that includes assassin 1 shots. If a janna or something is making life hell for your team then that means janna is your target, not the ADC.

EssenceOfPoo3 votes

no no no, an assassin should still be able to kill an adc with their weakness compensated (by support) and assasin's weakness exploited (support CC). who gives a damn if it's a 1v2? hur dur

/s

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

AleksaTeemo1 votes

{quoted}

no no no, an assassin should still be able to kill an adc with their weakness compensated (by support) and assasin's weakness exploited (support CC). who gives a damn if it's a 1v2? hur dur

/s

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

so Adc`s are supposed to just 3 times right click them because they have a support and kill them?

Omen464 votes

{quoted}

so Adc`s are supposed to just 3 times right click them because they have a support and kill them?

it's a clear advantage to have 2 on 1, why wouldn't it be a bit easy? HOW ARE YOU SO CAUGHT OUT!?

Skorch2 votes

First off, I thank you for the compliment. I try my hardest to make my posts as valid, with as much proof and lack of plain bandwagon as possible.

Secondly, (Also from a support main) It is true that supports mitigate damage, and they should. Either in the form of shields/heals/peel, however. But, the issue stems from how MUCH they need to mitigate. There is A LOT of damage in the game right now, and to compensate supports need to mitigate a lot of it to not feel awful. For instance if you blow all of your CDs to save the ADC and he dies instantly anyway Support would feel horrible. But BECAUSE the ADC dies instantly supports need to be able to mitigate damage, and in a 2v1 2v2 2v3 situation this can be come an issue since its not a full 5v5.

When I say assassins arent strong they are doing how much damage in the amount of time I think is healthy. The issue however is ADCs are flat dealing too much damage, I get called an ADC main a lot when I call out people for poorly representing something I PERSONALLY believe. ADCs ARE dealing too much damage, supports need to have massive shields and overall impact to deal with that, and tanks are way too tanky. I think all other classes as a whole are doing ok numbers, but these 3 classes are doing their jobs too well. If all of them were about 70% as effective, ADCs did 70% of their current damage, tanks were 70% how tanky they were to people NOT ADC, and supports shielded for 70% of their current amount. The game would be in a much more agreeable state.

Iffy Jarl2 votes

Thats an interesting solution

iDarkWind1 votes

Yes, they should mitigate damage. But at this point, this isn't about mitigate damage, but nullify. If supports are with ADCs 24/7, when are the assassins supposed to kill the enemy ADC? Even tought assassins are weak in team fights, if they manage to be able to use their full rotation on the ADC, shouldn't they be rewarded with a kill? At the moment this is impossible, even if he lands the combo and that's a issue. If you're able to go throught the front line and land your full combo on enemy ADC it should be a kill, doesn't matter the situation. Either the enemy team front line or ADC misspositioned and should be punished, but this doesn't happen. Janna or Lulu will be there to shield the ADC for another bar of HP, or a Leona or Alistar will be there with a Knight's bow and Solari and be able to mitigate your damage even tought they are engage supports, monstly because of the changes made to Solari.

Other problem are the lethality items. They're bad. I wish we could turn back on itemazation way before duskblade was even introduced, when assassins felt like real assassins, when the Last Whisper ignored 35% of Armor and the ArmorPen would apply after (wich at the time was only Ghostblade and Black Cleaver). Season 5 may have been bad for the assassins, because their counters were meta (Bruisers and tanks) but they would still able to perform their job, wich was great.

Iffy Jarl3 votes

I mean the support always positioning around the carries is just him being a good support, him being there 24/7 has nothing to do with riot that's just how the player plays his champ. Just because you land a full rotation on someone doesn't mean u deserve a kill because for every skill you land there is a precautionary measure being taken. i could go brand, lux, or annie but I am choosing to go a specific champ as a reactive strategy in response to your proactive strategy and reactive should always be stronger than proactive

iDarkWind1 votes

I'll try to ellaborate a bit more:

  • Shields are overturned at the moment
  • ADCs are pretty strong in terms of damage in the early game, wich in the past season it wasn't the case (monstly because of how cheap Crit is)
  • This thing right here item 2423 makes assassins's life miserable, even tought it's a one time use, you can get it for free from the runes and also you can upgrade it later to a item 3026
  • Also other problematic thing is item 3047 , wich alone with 1100 gold you can deny the penetration that both item 3142 and item 3147 provide

Nowdays if the ADC has a stopwatch, it will be way harder to the assassin have a sucessfull dive, now imagine if his support that can shield him is near by? It's impossible to the assassin fulfill his objective. Picking an assassin almost looks like a troll pick tbh, because his strong points just dissapeared. There wasn't a single season that I remenber, at least, where this would happen.

I already said this, like two times already, but i'll say it again: In a meta where ADCs are shining, their counters, the assassins, are strugling wich makes no sense.

Evil Yasuo1 votes

{quoted}

I'll try to ellaborate a bit more:

  • Shields are overturned at the moment
  • ADCs are pretty strong in terms of damage in the early game, wich in the past season it wasn't the case (monstly because of how cheap Crit is)
  • This thing right here item 2423 makes assassins's life miserable, even tought it's a one time use, you can get it for free from the runes and also you can upgrade it later to a item 3026
  • Also other problematic thing is item 3047 , wich alone with 1100 gold you can deny the penetration that both item 3142 and item 3147 provide

Nowdays if the ADC has a stopwatch, it will be way harder to the assassin have a sucessfull dive, now imagine if his support that can shield him is near by? It's impossible to the assassin fulfill his objective. Picking an assassin almost looks like a troll pick tbh, because his strong points just dissapeared. There wasn't a single season that I remenber, at least, where this would happen.

I already said this, like two times already, but i'll say it again: In a meta where ADCs are shining, their counters, the assassins, are strugling wich makes no sense.

Dude I shit you not, the adc used his stopwatch right? Well the next time I roamed bot which was when my ult was back up, he used another one.... The mother fucker literally sold the broken one and bought another one. I can NOT STANDDDDD stopwatches.

iDarkWind1 votes

Even if he had bought another one, it would still be a item 2424 . They only can use it one time, even if they re-buy it, far as I know.

Evil Yasuo1 votes

{quoted}

Even if he had bought another one, it would still be a item 2424 . They only can use it one time, even if they re-buy it, far as I know.

There's no way because he stasised twice

Executioner1 votes

Well, guess what, your wrong. I've tried.

iDarkWind10 votes

I'm not saying assassins should 2vs1, but at this point, since supports are always with the ADCs, there's no window to assassins be able to caught off guard the enemy ADC, it is just impossible. If that wasn't already bad enough, there's a rune that gives you a free Zhonya's that gives the enemy team 2.5 seconds more time to react or literally can save the ADC from the Death Mark or Talon's passive. The amount of shields is ridiculous. Plus, here I didn't talk about other thing: Today I had a game where I caught the enemy Caitlyn alone and killed her. The thing was, one or two more autos and I would have died. The time that my Death Mark took to pop, she almost killed me. I wasn't fed and so she wasn't.

So let's see the main problems: -Insane shields from supports -They do Burst per Second and not Damage per Second -They can get a free Stopwatch at the start of the game wich can be upgraded later on to a Guardian Angel -Ninja Tabis are insanely strong. Ninja Tabis alone negates both Duskblade and Ghostblade lethality

Riot has to do something about this. I've never tought there would be a season worst than season 5 to assassins (tank meta), but guess I was wrong. In a meta where ADCs are shining, their counters, the assassins are struggling.

Skorch5 votes

Personally I absolutely hate the BPS term, it is just so incorrect. Its just really high DPS. I dont know why it bugs me so much but it does.

Anyway what needs to happen is the 3 main players on a team rn, tanks, ADCs, and supports. Should probably be about 70% effective at what they are meant to do, and all other classes stay the same.

iDarkWind5 votes

It's high DPS for most of the ADCs. But if you had faced a Vayne Caitlyn you know that term isn't wrong at all to those champions. The only champion that should do Burst per Second is Jhin because he is the only one who doesn't have any atk speed wich makes him balance.

In that same game where the enemy Caitlyn almost killed me in a 1vs1 before my Death Marks pop, if I'm not mistaken, was the same game where in my team I had a Sivir and I saw Caitlyn doing more than half of Sivir's HP with one auto with her passive bonus (headshot) and item 3087 charged. You may argue: 'But it is a especial ocassion, she won't have that same conditions every time!' well, I can't deny that, but in my opinion not a single champion should do so much damage with a single auto while at the same time have high DPS and being a range champion.

Many times in season 5 I felt bad and almost decided to drop League of Legends a bit because how juggernaunts were oppresive, but I never tought season 8 would be way worst.

Like I said, it makes no sense that in a meta where ADCs are shining, the assassins are struggling. It makes no sense that ADCs counters are having such difficult times.

Skorch5 votes

My pain for BPS isnt what its used for (although i do find it misleading) My issue is as a term it doesnt make sense. "BPS means a large amount of damage in a short amount of time in a long amount of time" Sure technically it works, but it just isnt correct. Its just DPS where its so high you die in 2 to 3 hits. Needs a nerf? Yes. But the term BPS infuriates me to no end.

iDarkWind2 votes

Yes, I understood what you're saying. But face it like, instead of saying they have insane amounts of DPS, we just say they have BPS. That's how it works.

Evil Yasuo8 votes

It's assassins having delayed burst that's killing them. When assassins had quick burst windows, they could assassinate targets like the adc before they could react using a stopwatch, getting shielded, lifestealing through the burst, knocking you back, etc. They would go in, murder their target QUICKLY and try to avoid death to get out.

Shaydrox12 votes

Killing someone before they can react is not exactly the solution if you ask me. I've been a Talon main for over 6 years now, and while I loved him before the rework, I love the current one too. The delays aren't the problem, in fact some of those were needed to create a more healthy game in the long run. But these delays should apply to more than just assassins.

When the delay on an assassin's burst is longer than it takes for the adc to kill them with 3 autoattacks, that becomes a problem. If all characters in this game got some tuning to their instant bursts, if adcs weren't tossing out 2k damage in such a small window, I think the whole game would be better off. Adcs are supposed to be all about sustained damage, but they obliterate other squishies so quickly it reminds me of Syndra.

I was hoping the new runes would maybe have some decent impact on adcs, but nothing much changed from last season unfortunately.

Sujiren7 votes

I miss crit zed and crit talon. item 3153 item 3142 item 3036 item 3031 item 3111 item 3026 , were the good old days for Zed , not even tanks could fight him, and tanks were a lot stronger then compared to now.

ExternalLink1 votes

{quoted}

I miss crit zed and crit talon. item 3153 item 3142 item 3036 item 3031 item 3111 item 3026 , were the good old days for Zed , not even tanks could fight him, and tanks were a lot stronger then compared to now.

When itemisation was more balanced. Notice, Assassins don't actually have a % penetration item that's really good for them anymore.

Malix Farwin7 votes

My problem with stopwatch is that i was always under the impression that stasis was a mechanic for Mages that was the equivalent to items like the hexdrinker for AD. Now AD have access to all the tools AP have but not the other way around. Theres no shield an AP champ can get that blocks AD damage but hilariously AP get a shield to block AP. Everyone(AP or AD) get things to shut down AP but not the other way around. Much worse they are much more gold efficient to build.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku4 votes

item 2419 item 3047 item 3026

KuraSei4 votes

Supports are just doing their jobs extremely well right now. A good Janna can literally make her adc unkillable.

Vapor Wave Vibes3 votes

As an Talon main I can say that assassins like zed+plus don't need more damage, but to be able to do damage in a shorter period of time. If it's delayed damage supports typically are too capable of just pressing exhaust, for lulu pressing r or w on you, janna pressing r, etc on supports. For me with old talon at his prime before items like ghostlbade got lethality I was able to kill squishies off before they could zhonya or supports could exhaust, but now supports can easily stop me since my combo isn't as swift.

PS. If you say "assassins targets are too strong" then do you want the everyone else to be nerfed, cuz you are saying assassins aren't in a good spot, but shouldn't be buffed.

Skorch11 votes

Being able to kill an opponent before they can react (when not exuberantly fed) isnt fair gameplay. When it comes to champs with now delayed burst I personally think Talon is the best off since the only "delayed" thing about him is his W returning, and he can continue autoing and casting other abilities during that. And well his ult is weird but still not bad.

And yes I do think Tanks, ADCs, and Support protection probably do need to be tuned down as a whole. They are just plain outshining everything.

Omen463 votes

because supports aren't supposed to be able to protect their adc, and tanks aren't supposed to peel. Find a work around, stop pretending the kills should be handed to you on a silver platter. [sg-shisa] I work hard to keep my adc safe and damn it I want them safe!

Skorch5 votes

Boi, im a support main, I know how supports support. Its just too often I see Jannas or Lulu s watch their ADC get engaged on, Press E+Aery for a 700HP shield, then slam locket for another 400, then for good measure hit redemption.

bunnypenors2 votes

[deleted]

Daddy Ants4 votes

{quoted}

as i support main i can very much verify the accuracy of the proposed problemo by the problemed assassin main uhh no one can touch the adc, they're too safe.

although i dont know much of the game, i can tell of my experiences. there are times i feel so useless because there's like 3 tanks surrounding the adc. Who needs a soraka to heal or a janna to peel? Not adc. Sometimes i get antsy, and even though i dont mean to, i front line in an attempt to hard cc the enemy adc to get the fight somewhere. but no they have 3 tanks and maybe support tank too

so this comes down to purely the adcs which one is mechanically better? who won the laning phase? who got camped? who does more damage?

no counter play i dont know her. just adc

Me and a friend had this discussion a while ago.

item 3109 item 3190 item 3222 item 3107 Lulu Janna are all toxic by design.

Put overtuned protection items on bullshit champions like Janna and Lulu and of course an adc won't die.

Infernape7 votes

Lulu is pretty much an assassin's worst nightmare simply because she can just press W on you and completely nullify your existence instantaneously.

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