You know what's nice about Zed?

Visigoth··54 votes·4,098 views

At least he doesn't heal half his health AND nuke you entire team Ekko

Honestly, Ekko makes Zed look under powered. AD is much easier to itemize against with items giving up to 100 armor, whereas the 2 best MR items barely let's you break 100 MR.

Zed has to have ulted to go back to his ult shadow, Ekko can use his ult as long as its up.

In an extended fight, Zed will run out of energy, Ekko has barely any mana costs! Even his half HP 1000 damage nuke is free!

Zed can only instant kill one person, Ekko mouth fucks your entire team with tons of AoE.

Zed has no innate sustain at all. Ekko has a big ass heal and huge shield.

Zed has no CC at all, but Ekko gets 2 big slows and can get a 2.25 second stun.

Zed only has 2 blinks, if you count his ult (3 if you count both going to enemy with ult and going to shadow). Ekko has a dash, a targeted blink, and can get untargetablility while also going back 4 seconds, meaning he can back, buy, and ult into lane.

Zed actually has counterplay! Yes, I know, it may not seem like it, but compared to Ekko, Zed has TONS of counterplay! Zhonya's shuts down his combo! Both QSS and Cleanse get rid of hit ult! Two huge sources of counterplay! Ekko pretty much does whatever the fuck he wants because low cooldowns, low mana costs, high sustain, high mobility, and a metric fuckton of damage and safety.

You thought LeBlanc was annoying? At least LeBlanc is only killing your carry, Ekko can pretty much 1v5 your team while killing you base and still has full HP and mana.

Fuck. This. Champion.

84 Comments

Slamurai Jack22 votes

If Ekko is nuking your entire team with his ult, you guys are morons and deserve to lose.

Ariel the Cruel10 votes

Braum Hey, here's a great idea! Olaf What's that? Udyr Lets dog-pile on Ekko! Nasus Works for me. Riven Ya, sure what ever. What are we doing?


Ekko You know I can hear you, right? I'm standing right here.

Phoresh21 votes

cough salt cough lol, while i dont like him either, i think he's a bit op, probably gonna be nerfed in the next coming patch 5.12.

IcyPepper13 votes

shrugs

Zed's ult is point and click, Ekko's ult is at least telegraphed. Only reason I don't hate Ekko's ult, even if it is overtuned.

Taredom8 votes

My point exactly, in most cases, if you get hit by the ult, you probably deserved it. Also only read about half of the main post before deciding this guy is on acid, Zed is/was so powerful because of a serious lack of counterplay. Riot made Ekko strong but he has counterplay every where. (also Zeds combo dealing that much damage from range, combined with so much mobility and a lack of mana makes for a very strong kit)

Examples being if you get hit by q on the way in, it does a lot less damage than it does on the way back (think Ahri) and if you get stunned by his w, the move where he literally makes an animation before he throws it, the move that tells you a second before it lands that it's going to be there, the move that he is often times running at you to land, then you likely deserved it. His e? That's a pretty broken move though.

Epilogue of Life13 votes

And then there are assassins like Talon who has ONE targeted dash on 20 years of CD and no hard CC...lol riot's version of balance.

ApplyForAGrant10 votes

When a champion is the shittiest assassin and yet still have the highest win rate, you know something is wrong with his skill floor. Riot will have to make him harder to play if they are going to improve him in any way. He's nerfed whenever he becomes viable because any monkey can pick him up and play to 80% of his full potential.

SmurfOfYixuan7 votes

I think Talon represents the norm of a LoL champion in terms of difficulty, but most viable assassins today are beyond that level of complexity, making him too simple by comparison. Talon is a typical older LoL champion: straight forward, efficient, but also limited in terms of the number of things he can pull off. Most assassins (and melee carries) nowadays have dozens of tools and combos that make them 10x harder to understand, but once mastered can do everything that Talon could not.

Who knows? In a world without complicated assassins like Zed, maybe Talon will be viable as an assassin in the top level of play. Or maybe there would be no viable assassins.

SouL1ess1 votes

Cutthroat CD is shorter than Phase Dive at max rank, dunno what you are talking about.

Cutthroat's earlier ranks can use a CD reduction because it's long, but that's about it...

Tsohgder1 votes

Ekko's Phase Dive is on a 7s CD at max rank, while Talon's E has a 10s CD. Also, Talon usually goes W>Q>E, while Ekko goes Q>E>W.

SouL1ess1 votes

while Talon's E has a 10s CD.

No, its 6 second CD at max rank.

Shorter than Phase Dive at 7 second CD max rank.

Talon usually goes W>Q>E, while Ekko goes Q>E>W.

Yes, that's why I think the earlier rank CD on Cutthroat can be decreased.

Tsohgder2 votes

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Talon It's 18-10s cd. If it had 6s CD at max rank, I would max E second lol.

SouL1ess1 votes

I probably confused the CD with the CD at 40% CDR, sorry about that.

Wind Whistler1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Epilogue of Life,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lL566PvJ,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-06-19T20:52:39.629+0000)

And then there are assassins like Talon who has ONE targeted dash on 20 years of CD and no hard CC...lol riot's version of balance.

Yeah, except it's instant and harder to stop than other gap closers, plus, doesn't it give a 70% slow?

I Main Swain12 votes

you know, I'm starting to see why people turn toxic against people complaining about champs that aren't op. it's ridiculously tiring explaining why ekko is not only not op but actually ridiculously easy to deal with. first off, ekkos "massive heal" will only heal him for a ton of hp if he has a ton of ap AND you did all of his hp in damage in the last 4 seconds. on top of that, he is almost never going to get to use his ult to both heal him for a ton AND do a ton of damage. but WAIT! THERES MORE! there is a freaking ghost that follows him TELLING YOU EXACTLY WHERE HE IS GOING TO BE IF HE ULTS. if you think that's hard to deal with, there really isn't much that can be done to help you.

all of his abilities are insanely easy to dodge. his q is not only ridiculously predictable but the first hit only does a tiny bit of damage, and the second hit is so easy to dodge that the only 3 excuses you have for getting hit by it twice are A) you were hard cc'd B) you were blocked by minions or C) you lagged out. his w has a 3-4 second delay and if he isn't inside of it with you all it will do is give you a little slow. the "massive shield" everyone complains about is only massive once he gets a ton of ap and it doesn't even last as long as the stun. so, to recap on his w, it is an ability that takes enormous predicting powers to be able to successfully land and the reward for which is entirely reasonable.

his e actually does absolutely garbage damage. the only reason it often seems to do a lot of damage to people is because it procs spell effects (ludens and his passive) and on hit effects (lich bane). otherwise, it's a relatively short ranged gap closer, the blink attack of which can only even be used for a couple seconds, that has only a 20% ap scaling. as for his passive, while people are busy complaining about it's power, Diana meanwhile actually gets more damage off ultimately than he does (and not just with her passive: she's a much stronger assassin overall, just not as safe).

on top of all of this, when he goes in all it takes is a little hard cc or quick burst and he is annihilated. on top of that, he gets creamed 1v1 by bruisers and tanks, especially those that excel at sticking to their targets and/or at long trades. and lets not forget that you can negate a very large portion of his damage by simply building a banshees.

did I forget to mention that he has mana problems? don't give me the excuse that his ult has no mana cost, that's 1 of 4 abilities. all you have to do when you play against an ekko is dodge his q's and his w's. that's it. you just negated almost all of his fighting power. now if he wants to proc his passive he has to stick with you for a few seconds while he aa's you slowly, to which you can EASILY counter attack.

Honestly, outside of someone who is incredibly good at him, ekko is actually pretty bad. a part of me is thrilled whenever I see the enemy team take ekko because I know there is a very good chance he will do very badly. Diana is honestly, imo, a much better version of him in every way outside of safety.

ChaosThief4 votes

I play ekko a bunch because I like to play him, not because he's broken, and I can address some of the things you said, but a few exceptions:

His second Q isn't impossible to land against a reasonable opponent, since it goes to where ekko is. So basically just make an invisible line between ekko and the Q, and avoid that line.

Mana problems mainly persist early game. One thing many people fail to realize: Ekko is NOT a lane bully. So abusing the fact that he spams Q is an excellent idea. Late game though, this won't be as much of a problem as he can clear wave after wave before having to go back for mana.

Also when fighting ekko, DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT TRY TO ENGAGE HIM IF HIS ULT IS WHERE HE IS STANDING. This is basically asking him to negate all of your work and murder you if you cannot kill him before the cc runs out.

Personally, Diana is much harder to escape than ekko, but ekko is far more difficult to catch than diana. A fed diana is much more threatening than a fed ekko, but some people fail to recognize what he can do.

SwiftKitten889 votes

i would rather face an Ekko than a Zed any day.

AMYS GRAVE9 votes

Zed has no CC at all,

actually zed has a slow on his e if you double hit it.

XeroKimo2 votes

It doesn't have to be a double hit to slows, it just makes the slow more powerful if you do double hit

LegitBacon668 votes

+1 Ekko makes Zed look like trash

Nuclear Panda8 votes

Ekko has counterplay. If you stand on his ult clone, that's your own fault. His parallel convergence as tons of counterplay, and Q is easy to dodge.

Chaotic Reks2 votes

half the time, you can't see his clone, and it's pretty difficult to predict where his W is going.

GankLord6 votes

Or maybe your eyesight is bad it's pretty easy to see and get your reaction time skills checked too 3 seconds is more than enough time to get out of that ridiculously telegraphed w. I mean it's just common sense if he's about to attack you where do you think the best place for him to place the w would be? Maybe the place where he is standing and not moving to attack you or maybe the place where you are running to try and get away from him I mean idk does that seem far-fetched? Granted Ekko is stronger than what riot promised he would be but I would rather deal with an Ekko than a zed any day. Ridiculous wave clear with no punishment like mana costs to keep him in check no thanks I'll take ekko.

Migrañaboy6 votes

3 months ago, OMG ZED NO COUNTERPLAY.

Nowadays, sources of counterplay.

Stay classy GD.

Retillin4 votes

Wait, are you saying you don't like an assassin/tank/bruiser/utility champion all rolled into one?

I Main Swain2 votes

isn't it a good thing then that ekko cant be more than 2 of those at a time (if you include utility, otherwise just 1)?

High54 votes

Learn to counter champs instead of complaining about them. The meta changes 10% because riot changes something and 90% because most people get better at the game.

THESuperStuntMan4 votes

Wow, people hate Ekko so much that the qq threads are getting upvotes for saying they prefer Zed? That's impressive.

Nameless Voice3 votes

Maybe I just haven't seen enough Ekko yet, but I still prefer seeing him on the enemy team than Zed.

He's still annoying - mostly because he's almost impossible to catch with all that mobility and all his CC - but his damage skills are all telehraphed enough to be fair.

I've died to him and thought "that was fair, he outplayed me there." - I have never thought that when facing a Zed.

WolfBV3 votes

You know, this reminds me, I have not seen a Zed qq thread these past few weeks.

Sona Ping1 votes

People stopped criticizing the mobile, bursty assassin who is too safe and has multiple passives to instead criticize the mobile, bursty assassin who is even safer and has even **more **passives.

Makes sense to me.

KohaiLuv3 votes

I am convinced people are blind. His clone is right there! There! There damnit there! It's a fucking blue boy walking right behind him His W is the size of a fucking apartment bathroom! Ekko kit just screams counterplay and people are STILL saying there is no counterplay to him? I have no hope for this community.

OhthePiplup2 votes

Ekko can use his ult as long as its up.

Roots are the weakest CC, and still stops ekko from even ulting.

Ulquiorra9952 votes

"Zed only has 2 blinks."

When you can say that someone has only 2 blinks I think that's a pretty good indicator how far the mobility creep has gone.

The Lexer2 votes

Ekko may not have large mana costs for team fighting but in lane can be a pain early, where as Zed uses energy that can be regened quickly in lane

The Trent2 votes

Lol Zed was never strong in my opinion just annoying. I think Ekko is too strong and also annoying which is a problem because people might nerf what makes him annoying instead of what makes him too strong. But at the same time should Riot even have annoying champs because they create rage when you can't do anything to play against them once they're ahead? Well doesn't matter really. Riot isn't too dumb, they'll improve in time, they might see this discussion because you put your time into it, but I don't think they'll do anything. You got your idea out here and I guess that's all that matters.

Oh by the way Ekko's mana costs are pretty high, not sure if it went live yet but they're giving his ult a mana cost and that will be a pretty big nerf because his mana costs were really high to begin with.

ImHerVoice2 votes

Both are stupid, gut both. Problem solved.

Rockman2 votes

Guys so butthurt you don't want to actually play the damn game.

Budupops1 votes

zed has more reliable sustain, but compared to ekko 1000 hp shield who gives a

Lowvyr1 votes

{quoted}

zed has more reliable sustain, but compared to ekko 1000 hp shield who gives a

Zed has sustain?

Budupops1 votes

once he gets botrk

Razii1 votes

[deleted]

Synx74 votes

{quoted}

Zed has CC he has slow from W + E ---- Zed

Facepalm

Only Play Darius1 votes

IKR? I was playing Zed into Ekko today, absolutely nothing I could do. Everytime I ulted him, he would just ult away. And he didn't need to use his ult to dive me.

Aych Pii1 votes

Zed has more counterplay than Ekko?

Hold on, I need a minute to finish laughing.

SwapShadows1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aych Pii,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lL566PvJ,comment-id=0021,timestamp=2015-06-20T16:17:21.640+0000)

Zed has more counterplay than Ekko?

Hold on, I need a minute to finish laughing.

Silver 5 talking about counterplay and balance?

Hold on, I need a minute to finish laughing.

Aych Pii1 votes

Ooh, you played the elo card. Hardcore. I guess we both know you don't have an actual argument, then?

Edit: in the interest of adding something constructive, I'm not trying to say Zed doesn't have counterplay - no, Zed has plenty of counterplay. But Ekko has considerably more.

Xengre1 votes

Ekko certainly does have his issues but I actually think Zed is still worse. That said lets cover some things you mention:

Itemizing against Mdmg isn't so bad as they must compete with CDs, mana sometimes, and health is more effective due to burst nature vs DPS on top of Mres. Unfortunately, burst reaches a breaking point when burst gets high enough, and worse when consistent dmg with low CDs or passives, reach a point that is intended to melt even reasonably tanky people who are going all defense. It produces the issue of you can't go any offense or you die instantly because you must invest entirely in survivability (Hexdrinker/Maw help some with this, but this is the only route for this in the game and I think it might be because I have seen this passive block obscene amounts of mdmg in a number of my games at random that it shouldn't). AD has armor shred and armor pen with nice build paths and other stats desirable for many AD oriented champs and health is not a consistent counter because of the DPS nature.

Zed can nuke your entire team or a good chunk of it with Q/E and shadow because his ratios are pretty generous, if he gets Hydra (everyone goes BotRK but don't consider it simply unviable) even more so. He has a strong passive/high AD nature to follow up and his ult.

Zed can use his W to escape in a more reliable manner than Ekko's pasive which only helps him actually flee, in most scenarios, within the first 0-2.5 seconds. Zed's ult gives a double method to bait and escape. Ekko doesn't have the highest mana cost but he certainly has more mana cost than Zed does if being played appropriately. Zed has no cost on his ult, his W can refund energy, more than it uses, and his Q + E have very low energy costs allowing about 3 rotations, potentially 4-5 before he actually lacks energy to spam further which is absolutely nuts. In lane his energy costs are irrelevant for the most part while Ekko actually does get gated to some extent by his. Ekko can't use his ult to both escape and fight while Zed can nearly every time. Zed clearly has the advantage here.

Zed can instant kill one person and do massive damage to the rest of your team depending on how you are positioned. Ekko can potentially wipe the entire team if they are positioned, roughly, in a similar manner as Zed or just do heavy damage but this requires the enemy to move on top of your ult's clone of their own volition as you will rarely get it under an entire team unless you dive in and flash out almost instantly while they are already heavily engaged possibly having the fight end or champions dissipate from location before your clone is even in place. Zed can follow up with his very potent autos and passive and repeatedly spam because what energy costs does he really have. Zed definitely has an advantage here.

Zed has multiple ways of escaping, an ult to dodge attacks in Zhongya like manner, and very strong synergy with taking either BotRK or Hydra as an early item and possibly BT later or one of the others and powerful autos due to his build route for comparable sustain if he has 3-4 seconds which he can buy with his kit in many cases. Ekko's heal is dependent on amount of dmg taken just prior to use and in many cases may have to decide between healing or damage. Shield is delayed so not always reliable but is decent. Toss up here but potentially favoring Ekko for damage mitigation but raw survivability definitely goes to Zed.

Zed has a slow. CC definitely goes to Ekko, stun being unreliable but his multiple slows are pretty crazy and spammable. Zed often builds BotRK, though which is worth considering.

Ekko has a short range dash and slightly longer if targeting enemy, but this almost always counts a single mobility effect. If you mean untargetability via Zhongya Zed has his ult with the same effect. The ult gives Ekko a 2nd form of mobility but with less direct control/reliability. Shop trick is definitely useful but I would argue how many actually use it regurlarly? It deflates your opportunity to use your ult in a fight. Maybe once or twice a match and not every match? Win goes to Zed here, no real comparison.

Zhongya does work handily against Zed to some extent, but it isn't a true counter play other than beyond the point of delaying his target of interest to focus in a team fight. He still has very powerful Q/E damage and his autos can often compete with ADCs/Yi and beat them late game, he also has his passive. Zhongya works just as well against Ekko albeit slightly less telegraphed. Ekko's DPS isn't nearly on par with Zed's so GA/BV (for his ult in a team fight if you avoid the other stuff, not that hard really unless you are target of focus), and Zhongya are far more effective counters to Ekko than Zed. QSS gets rid of his ult Cleanse does not. Flash hard counters Ekko's ult as does any heavy mobility effect or proper positioning rendering it entirely useless against reasonably mobile champs or if you can force Ekko to engage on you rather than on him and his clone.

Both champs have problems, but you definitely underestimate Zed while overrating Ekko.

Big Bang Bob1 votes

~~At least he doesn't heal half his health AND nuke you entire team Ekko ~~

~~ Honestly, Ekko makes Zed look under powered. AD is much easier to itemize against with items giving up to 100 armor, whereas the 2 best MR items barely let's you break 100 MR.~~

Zed has to have ulted to go back to his ult shadow, Ekko can use his ult as long as its up.

In an extended fight, Zed will run out of energy, Ekko has barely any mana costs! Even his half HP 1000 damage nuke is free!

~~ Zed can only instant kill one person, Ekko mouth fucks your entire team with tons of AoE.~~

~~ Zed has no innate sustain at all. Ekko has a big ass heal and huge shield.~~

~~ Zed has no CC at all, but Ekko gets 2 big slows and can get a 2.25 second stun.~~

~~ Zed only has 2 blinks, if you count his ult (3 if you count both going to enemy with ult and going to shadow). Ekko has a dash, a targeted blink, and can get untargetablility while also going back 4 seconds, meaning he can back, buy, and ult into lane.~~

~~ Zed actually has counterplay! Yes, I know, it may not seem like it, but compared to Ekko, Zed has TONS of counterplay! Zhonya's shuts down his combo! Both QSS and Cleanse get rid of hit ult! Two huge sources of counterplay! Ekko pretty much does whatever the fuck he wants because low cooldowns, low mana costs, high sustain, high mobility, and a metric fuckton of damage and safety.~~

~~ You thought LeBlanc was annoying? At least LeBlanc is only killing your carry, Ekko can pretty much 1v5 your team while killing you base and still has full HP and mana.~~

~~ Fuck. This. Champion.~~

I don't know how to dodge, and I thought his ghost was just there for no reason. Also, me and my team like to bunch tightly in a straight line during fights. :P

^ Fixed it.

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