But then introduce Akali's True Stealth, another tale in the braindead arms race of abilities in this game, which is a defacto tower nerf. I'd ask you to please bring back the weak form of Banner since no one had a problem with it, some of us used it, and just because the same people who thought True Stealth was a good idea can't figure out how to balance an item is no justification for it being removed.
ModWulf Helhammer5 votesDon't be disingenuous. There is a massive difference between an item that anyone can buy that melts down towers without the user even being present, and a single ability on a single champion that allows them to drop agro.
Also, stop lying and calling it true stealth. It's not, and we all know it.
RookPusher2 votes[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lB9w888w,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-08-08T16:30:04.519+0000)
Don't be disingenuous. There is a massive difference between an item that anyone can buy that melts down towers without the user even being present, and a single ability on a single champion that allows them to drop agro.
Also, stop lying and calling it true stealth. It's not, and we all know it.
There is a massive difference between the item and the ability. That's not what I'm talking about. It's reverence for the tower which comes and goes depending on what we're talking about. There is no consistency.
I appreciate your downvote just the same.
ModWulf Helhammer3 votesDoes Akali's shroud give her incredible tower taking ability when she's halfway across the map?
Champions are allowed to tower dive. That's something that has always been in the game, and always will. If you are too low to be around a champion, then don't stick around. Better to give up some farm then to give up the kill.
Unless Akali is massively fed, she isn't going to insta delete you in any way close to her old form. That's why she has the shroud, because she requires more time and positioning in order to get her damage off.
She isn't stealthed when under tower, you still see where she is. You just can't click on her. If she drops the stealth to attack you, then she gets hit with a turret shot. Nearly every single champion in the game has some form of AoE, particularly mid lane. Use it.
RookPusher2 votes[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lB9w888w,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-08-08T16:36:44.800+0000)
Does Akali's shroud give her incredible tower taking ability when she's halfway across the map?
Champions are allowed to tower dive. That's something that has always been in the game, and always will. If you are too low to be around a champion, then don't stick around. Better to give up some farm then to give up the kill.
Unless Akali is massively fed, she isn't going to insta delete you in any way close to her old form. That's why she has the shroud, because she requires more time and positioning in order to get her damage off.
She isn't stealthed when under tower, you still see where she is. You just can't click on her. If she drops the stealth to attack you, then she gets hit with a turret shot. Nearly every single champion in the game has some form of AoE, particularly mid lane. Use it.
I feel as if you're not understanding the comparison. Towers do many things. One of those things received a nerf by this ability being created. Conversely, when an item threatened a tower it was removed.
To put a finer point on it - I don't care about Akali. I'm asking for consistency in how you regard a piece of the game - and in fact almost all MOBAs - that is being nerfed even further. I can't imagine Akali is the last champ to have an ability that sticks it to towers.
ModWulf Helhammer2 votesBut those are two entirely different reasons.
You can't compare "towers are going down too easily with no commitment because of an item" and "a champion has an ability that lets them tower dive"
One is concerning tower durability, the other tower protectiveness, the latter of which has never been a guarantee. Using your vein of reasoning, you could use that as an excuse for any kind of buff or nerf a champion gets by comparing it to a different champion within the same class or purpose.
RookPusher1 votes[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lB9w888w,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-08T16:45:48.797+0000)
But those are two entirely different reasons.
You can't compare "towers are going down too easily with no commitment because of an item" and "a champion has an ability that lets them tower dive"
One is concerning tower durability, the other tower protectiveness, the latter of which has never been a guarantee. Using your vein of reasoning, you could use that as an excuse for any kind of buff or nerf a champion gets by comparing it to a different champion within the same class or purpose.
So the lack of commitment is where you lose me. Sending a well placed Siege Minion uplane with a buff was (to me) more about money than it was towers. Still, to land it correctly was not easy, and the higher you climb, the more players watch the map. I'm eliminating all ways in which Banner and Portal are similar because Portal was left in the game. Meaning that Banner's benefit was placing it and waiting for the enemy to notice.
But regarding the tower argument, to some degree I can see what you're saying. Yorick, Ziggs, and Rammus all have tower deafeating abilities. But that's a damage issue - towers always took damage. These days I think they take too much, but with Akali this is the slippery slope of a tower nerf. As I said, true stealth is going to be replicated somewhere down the line. Knocks and dashes were never this prevalent and now they're everywhere.
Towers were considered to be more valuable than Banner made them. But not so valuable that they should be something of a safe zone. I would reiterate that Towers need a higher place in the game than they currently are. If they buffed towers, I'd be fine with Akali's TS.
ModWulf Helhammer1 votesAgain, it's not "true stealth". That's a made up term that exaggerates what the skill actually does.
At the time BoC was removed, the item had no skill involved in it at all. It was "place and forget, a little while later the enemy turret goes down" and "We have baron, now we banner a minion to make it stronger then the enemy carry". If it was nerfed, then it became useless and no one wanted it. The core difference between BoC and Zz'Rot is that Zz'Rot has a range that the voidlings can reach. You can't just place it in the base once and have it go up a whole lane, but you could do that with Banner.
RookPusher1 votes[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lB9w888w,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-08T17:02:06.804+0000)
Again, it's not "true stealth". That's a made up term that exaggerates what the skill actually does.
At the time BoC was removed, the item had no skill involved in it at all. It was "place and forget, a little while later the enemy turret goes down" and "We have baron, now we banner a minion to make it stronger then the enemy carry". If it was nerfed, then it became useless and no one wanted it. The core difference between BoC and Zz'Rot is that Zz'Rot has a range that the voidlings can reach. You can't just place it in the base once and have it go up a whole lane, but you could do that with Banner.
I responded to point #2 in my other post.
I'm referring to it as True Stealth because it's why it's colloquially known as. Which facilitates understanding and discussion. It does nothing to obscure what the ability it. I don't know why you insist on dying on that hill.
PooWho2 votesThis is the dumbest thing I've ever read. A level 13 Akali can easily kill a level 11/12 adc under tower nearly scot free, unless she's bad. I don't see anything risky or skill intensive about ulting an adc under tower, pressing w so you can't take damage, eing them, qing them, and ulting out. It's so low risk high reward and bullshit.
Giving an assassin the ability to kill champions under tower that easily would be like giving Master Yi the ability to not take damage from Baron.
And Banner wasn't as strong as people were making it out to be, a small nerf to it would've be fine.
ModWulf Helhammer3 votesAt the time it was removed, Banner defined the meta. It was not some small blip, it was a massive mushroom cloud of game imbalance.
Assassins are supposed to be able to kill champions. If you're a squishy ADC, and the enemy assassin is 1 to 2 levels above you, with likely more gold and items, You are going to die. That's what happens. Unless you massively outplay them, or they mess up, or you have an ally come and help you, they will kill you. That's their entire purpose.
Also, want to know how easy it was for old Akali to do that? You hit them with your point and click Q, dash to them with your point and click ult, AA to get the heal and proc your Q mark, AA again to get the damage part of her passive. Throw in your E and Gunblade, and they are dead, likely before that second AA. All of this instantly.
If Akali is killing you with just her abilities, not using her passive, then the level and gold discrepancy is much large than what you describe.
RookPusher1 votes[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lB9w888w,comment-id=00010000000000010000,timestamp=2018-08-08T17:14:33.491+0000)
At the time it was removed, Banner defined the meta. It was not some small blip, it was a massive mushroom cloud of game imbalance.
Assassins are supposed to be able to kill champions. If you're a squishy ADC, and the enemy assassin is 1 to 2 levels above you, with likely more gold and items, You are going to die. That's what happens. Unless you massively outplay them, or they mess up, or you have an ally come and help you, they will kill you. That's their entire purpose.
Also, want to know how easy it was for old Akali to do that? You hit them with your point and click Q, dash to them with your point and click ult, AA to get the heal and proc your Q mark, AA again to get the damage part of her passive. Throw in your E and Gunblade, and they are dead, likely before that second AA. All of this instantly.
If Akali is killing you with just her abilities, not using her passive, then the level and gold discrepancy is much large than what you describe.
Prior to this, I thought we were having a reasonable discussion. Now I'm wondering if you read my thread at all.
Banner was considered to be too volatile to balance by Riots own words. Which is why I explicitly stated that they should bring back the weak version - when it was meta defining. If you can't agree that this Banner was fine, then we're at an impasse.
But I feel obligated to say, again, that this is about a double standard.
AnAggravatedPimp2 votesPrior to this, I thought we were having a reasonable discussion. Now I'm wondering if you read my thread at all.
Banner was considered to be too volatile to balance by Riots own words. Which is why I explicitly stated that they should bring back the weak version - when it was meta defining. If you can't agree that this Banner was fine, then we're at an impasse.
But I feel obligated to say, again, that this is about a double standard.
The weak version was never used though, outside of maybe Heimer. When the item was meta relevant you could actually see teams with 3-5 banners built. It warped the game around itself, turning it into League of Banners.
Akali shroud, on the other hand, effects her only. She can be hit by towers, any offensive actions taken while stealthed reveal her and the tower she's under immediately fires and will hit. It does not weaken towers. It's a waste to try to use it to attack a tower from stealth because waiting for minions is vastly superior.
In short, Akali's shroud just temporarily drops tower aggro but doesnt help her push towers. Banner could be bought by 5 players per team to force down any lane they chose while they operated on the opposite end of the map.
RookPusher1 votesThe weak version was never used though, outside of maybe Heimer. When the item was meta relevant you could actually see teams with 3-5 banners built. It warped the game around itself, turning it into League of Banners.
Akali shroud, on the other hand, effects her only. She can be hit by towers, any offensive actions taken while stealthed reveal her and the tower she's under immediately fires and will hit. It does not weaken towers. It's a waste to try to use it to attack a tower from stealth because waiting for minions is vastly superior.
In short, Akali's shroud just temporarily drops tower aggro but doesnt help her push towers. Banner could be bought by 5 players per team to force down any lane they chose while they operated on the opposite end of the map.
So then what's the problem with bringing it back? Why pick the fight with me on an off-topic if everyone says it sucks.
AnAggravatedPimp1 votesSo then what's the problem with bringing it back? Why pick the fight with me on an off-topic if everyone says it sucks.
The problem is that it can only come back in two states, useless or meta warping. Riot solved that entirely issue by removing it once ZZ'rot was in a stable spot.
OtterlyLost1 votesMage mains whined about banner. So then they changed it to just take reduced damage in general and then, imagine that, it was problematic.
RookPusher2 votesMage mains whined about banner. So then they changed it to just take reduced damage in general and then, imagine that, it was problematic.
I would imagine they did, but honestly as a support player it was one of the few things I could use to try and balance a one-sided game.
rtbf2216514121 votesIt's okay though. If her stealth runs out, she has 
for the luls.
Warlord Rhinark1 votesI made a post suggesting bringing back Banner of Command and changing it's active to be a little bit more healthy.