Are we really under this delusion that tanks are "bad again?"

HateDaddy·Aug 9, 2016·39 votes·1,901 views

And AD assassins are broken OP when they're all garbage right now?

Tanks are considering weak because they aren't obnoxiously overpowered and solo killing back lines by themselves? Tanks are not dying to flat pen stacking ADCs, flat pen is fucking terrible against armor stackers. Assassins are not one shorting tanks, well assassins not named LB. assassins are fucking garbage right now.

We are actually in a fairly balanced state where no particular class is overpowered, just a few champions. How this board comes up with this shit is beyond me.

This board needs to be shut down tbh

69 Comments

PPPPPPPPPPPP270Aug 9, 20168 votes

I still think 70% of the balance issues are by items and keystones than the actual champions at this point. Most assassins are in a terrible spot right now. Viable ones right now are Kha'Zix, Le Blanc, Zed, and maybe Ekko.

WoonStruckAug 9, 20168 votes

I think people are just confusing tank with bruiser/juggernaut again. Tanks are doing fine atm.

Its champions that have to build one or two damage-focused items to be a threat, but must build straight tank items afterwards that are having issues. The ones that can't get enough armor to survive long enough to do their job unless they don't buy MR...in which case they don't live long enough to do their job.

Then again, it really depends on the AP/support you're facing more than the bruiser/juggernaut you're using.

HateDaddyAug 9, 20164 votes

{quoted}

I think people are just confusing tank with bruiser/juggernaut again. Tanks are doing fine atm.

Its champions that have to build one or two damage-focused items to be a threat, but must build straight tank items afterwards that are having issues. The ones that can't get enough armor to survive long enough to do their job unless they don't buy MR...in which case they don't live long enough to do their job.

Then again, it really depends on the AP/support you're facing more than the bruiser/juggernaut you're using.

Yes Nasus sucks

HateDaddyAug 9, 20167 votes

I'm not even wearing a raincoat or umbrella, gonna bathe in these downvotes

Subject 5Aug 9, 20163 votes

{quoted}

I'm not even wearing a raincoat or umbrella, gonna bathe in these downvotes

The game was just recently made to be irritating and agitating at it's best, it is no longer the same game as it was in season 3. Because so many things have been left unchecked and diversity is literally forcing people to play the game how Riot wants them to play (They will enforce the way that they want the game played at all cost. Even if it ruins diversity and fun of the game. Even items lack diversity, you have like 4-5 attack speed items that give like the same stats with different passives. So . . . you are buying a passive? So buying a passive is part of the game now. K.)

A video game is played best when players are not bounded by such strict fundamentals of a sport, why have a quarterback when you can have two at the cost of your mid laner? (one frontlinesman in fb) Because the NFL is going to nerf that strategy, and make certain that it doesn't happen again.

I am a FeministAug 9, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Subject 5,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l670EIys,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-08-09T03:16:39.185+0000)

The game was just recently made to be irritating and agitating at it's best, it is no longer the same game as it was in season 3. Because so many things have been left unchecked and diversity is literally forcing people to play the game how Riot wants them to play (They will enforce the way that they want the game played at all cost. Even if it ruins diversity and fun of the game. Even items lack diversity, you have like 4-5 attack speed items that give like the same stats with different passives. So . . . you are buying a passive? So buying a passive is part of the game now. K.)

A video game is played best when players are not bounded by such strict fundamentals of a sport, why have a quarterback when you can have two at the cost of your mid laner? (one frontlinesman in fb) Because the NFL is going to nerf that strategy, and make certain that it doesn't happen again.

There's a meta and Riot enforces that, that happens in ALL games. I don't know how that correlates to the fact that tanks aren't under powered at all and are in fact balanced.

Subject 5Aug 9, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am a Feminist,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l670EIys,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-09T03:19:06.734+0000)

There's a meta and Riot enforces that, that happens in ALL games. I don't know how that correlates to the fact that tanks aren't under powered at all and are in fact balanced.

"Are we really under this delusion that tanks are "bad again?""

The title.

As for what I said, yeah, people are going to be conditioned to believe something because it is true. Look at it from this perspective, with the color red being forced onto the playing field, certain colors that do well against red will need to be nerfed and those who do poor against red will do poorly and require buffs. That is not a healthy situation for the actual game.

I am a FeministAug 9, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Subject 5,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l670EIys,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-09T03:22:01.099+0000)

"Are we really under this delusion that tanks are "bad again?""

The title.

As for what I said, yeah, people are going to be conditioned to believe something because it is true. Look at it from this perspective, with the color red being forced onto the playing field, certain colors that do well against red will need to be nerfed and those who do poor against red will do poorly and require buffs. That is not a healthy situation for the actual game.

The thing is the game isn't balanced around one class. If you want to explain why you think tanks aren't in a good spot then go ahead. If you want to lecture about why you think league isn't fun anymore or the way that riot balances their game is off, this isn't the right thread.

Angry MonsterAug 9, 20167 votes

I think you fail to understand the word tank versus juggernaut and bruiser.

HateDaddyAug 9, 201616 votes

[{quoted}](name=Angry Monster,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l670EIys,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-08-09T03:22:59.925+0000)

I think you fail to understand the word tank versus juggernaut and bruiser.

No, trust me I understand.

Maokai Malphite Nautilus are still very good top laners

It could be argued that Poppy and Shen are tanks, both are still pretty good.

Gragas is basically a tank, let's be honest. But he's versatile enough to function as an AP bruiser so he blurs some lines admittedly but cinderhulk junglers are actually pretty damn good. Probably the best.

Braum Leona Alistar are also pretty damn good too.

Tanks are plenty fine, they just aren't obnoxiously overpowered anymore.

Angry MonsterAug 9, 20166 votes

I will admit that i was wrong and you are using the term correctly. Though most tank posts tend to mean darius, ekko, fiora, ect

i disagree that they are doing good. Especially with split push becoming the dominate force again. (jax, irelia, fio, ekko, illoia). Top lane is becoming more and more focused around split push/ duelist. Jungle is way to bruiser/dive fighter meta (unless LCS competitive).

IF you look at play rates tanks are actually getting lower while holding same win rates. When in fact the the win rate should be climbing since only the mains are sticking with the champs.

I am personally not interested in play support, so the health of them in the bot lane is none of my concern. Though initiation tanks are having a super rough time (meta wise) and defensive tanks like brum and thresh are doing well against poke, but bot lane is dominated by poke mages.

HateDaddyAug 9, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Angry Monster,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l670EIys,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2016-08-09T05:02:02.820+0000)

I will admit that i was wrong and you are using the term correctly. Though most tank posts tend to mean darius, ekko, fiora, ect

ya it triggers me too, no worries

i disagree that they are doing good. Especially with split push becoming the dominate force again. (jax, irelia, fio, ekko, illoia). Top lane is becoming more and more focused around split push/ duelist. Jungle is way to bruiser/dive fighter meta (unless LCS competitive).

Malph beats all of them and scales better

Shen and Poppy beat all of them except Fiora, Jax vs Shen can go either way

IF you look at play rates tanks are actually getting lower while holding same win rates. When in fact the the win rate should be climbing since only the mains are sticking with the champs.

That's not really true tbh. Their winrates shouldn't be climbing much, if at all. It suggests they're balanced.

I am personally not interested in play support, so the health of them in the bot lane is none of my concern. Though initiation tanks are having a super rough time (meta wise) and defensive tanks like brum and thresh are doing well against poke, but bot lane is dominated by poke mages.

Bot lane support is pretty volatile tbh. Everything is kinda good in it atm. Initiation tanks are great lol, Gragas is the best jungler atm. I'm actually not sure why people aren't playing them more, they're strong vs most of the top lane meta picks

Angry MonsterAug 9, 20167 votes

Malph beats all of them and scales better

False http://champion.gg/champion/Malphite

He spike in the mid game and false off in the late (like all tanks do). Part of the nature of a tank is to have horrible scaling. Watch what a fiora or jax will do to a malphite late game.

That's not really true tbh. Their winrates shouldn't be climbing much, if at all. It suggests they're balanced.

this is completely false. Win rates are effected by the amount of people playing the champ, even riot has stated this much. They are not the only thing but there is a direct coloration. It is the reason why lee win rate constantly below 50+%, he has a 24% play rate. It is the same reason sol has a positive win rate, less than 1% play the champ. Sol numbers for being played are so bad that jungle at a .2% is consider track worthy.

http://champion.gg/champion/AurelionSol/Middle

Grag numerically is just plain broken and is played AP fighter not tank. ( i disagree with the role he is actually filling.) Grag is the AP version of reksi and neither are tanks (build 1 or 2 damage items and pure defense.

Kanzaki RankoAug 9, 20165 votes

Because this board believes that tanks have to be able to oneshot squishy backliners with cc spells while being unkillable and having no offensive items to be considered "balanced"

AcidTheWarlockAug 9, 20161 votes

Oh my gosh

You just triggered my PTSD from the Smite tank meta.

That was literally what happened.

You didn't even take an assassin jungle (normally assassins in Smite jungle, tank supports, if you haven't played it) or an ADC. You took more tanks.

It was pure cancer.

Imagine tank Ekko, Fizz, and Akali combined with normal Alistar and Gragas.

League's tanks are balanced.

You don't want that kind of tank meta. I wasn't around for Cinderhulk meta but I've heard it wasn't too bad.

Kanzaki RankoAug 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Oh my gosh

You just triggered my PTSD from the Smite tank meta.

That was literally what happened.

You didn't even take an assassin jungle (normally assassins in Smite jungle, tank supports, if you haven't played it) or an ADC. You took more tanks.

It was pure cancer.

Imagine tank Ekko, Fizz, and Akali combined with normal Alistar and Gragas.

League's tanks are balanced.

You don't want that kind of tank meta. I wasn't around for Cinderhulk meta but I've heard it wasn't too bad.

It was basically every champion that was considered a tank getting picked 24/7 because cinderhulk was already brokenly overpowered on release combined with the high bases of tanks. Wasn't a pleasant patch by any stretch, people just call it a good meta because they'd play things that don't get punished for poor positioning/choices (esp sej's ult back then) and the amount of damage a character like sejuani did with release cinderhulk was like 4.20 warwick when he smited+r'd you.

Sire HippingtonAug 9, 20164 votes

Can't speak for the whole boards, but 'oneshot squishy backliners' is not on the list of what people want from tanks as far as i know. Surviving longer than 5 sec in a teamfight past 30min however would be great.

I am a FeministAug 9, 20164 votes

It's because all of the free flat pen on AD items, it's not like those affect squishy champions the most ecks dee xdd

HateDaddyAug 9, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am a Feminist,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l670EIys,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-08-09T03:15:23.774+0000)

It's because all of the free flat pen on AD items, it's not like those affect squishy champions the most ecks dee xdd

exactly, flat pen is strong vs low armor targets, not high armor targets

It makes me me wonder what people are building

ÂzaIeaAug 10, 20161 votes

Isn't the new adc build: Ghostblade -> Duskblade -> BC? In which case adcs get 20|30% pen? In which case they should be dealing pretty good damage to tanks.

DunkinNoobsAug 10, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am a Feminist,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l670EIys,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-08-09T03:15:23.774+0000)

It's because all of the free flat pen on AD items, it's not like those affect squishy champions the most ecks dee xdd

"Free" flat pen? What does that even mean? Why is only the penetration free? Is the AD on these items free too?

MunchCrunchLunchAug 9, 20163 votes

when an adc is better at draining and taking damage with heal and lifesteal and shields than your frontline malphite then yes i would say they are weak. no tank in this game can drain tank at all anymore when focused in an even fight.

HateDaddyAug 9, 20166 votes

That ADC is getting all of the teams utility thrown at it. That ADC is not absorbing all of the crowd control/engage spells that the malphite is absorbing, nor is that ADC zone controlling the way a malphite would be. They aren't out tanking anything, quit being absurd

Only Play DariusAug 9, 20162 votes

Tanks are only good because they are the only ones who can survive ADC's for more than 3 seconds. Tanky melees such as divers/juggernauts and even some skirmishers are shit right now because they get blown up by ADC's late game

StainlessTweedleAug 9, 20161 votes

Juggernauts? They're not bad against adc's...

AcidTheWarlockAug 9, 20161 votes

Their main weakness is being kited hard

and that's all you do as an adc

is kite

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

I'm sorry if I come across as rude, but pretty much anyone that's played ADC can kite and juggernauts have no mobility except for some CC or a quick leap.

StainlessTweedleAug 9, 20162 votes

If a juggernaut gets in melee range with an adc the adc is dead. And you're kinda underestimating the ''some CC or a quick leap''. Udyr - Shyvana - Irelia - Nasus.... good luck kiting those

GULAG 4 UAug 9, 20163 votes

Nasus can be kited, the rest...

IT'S FCKING IMPOSSIBLE :D

chipndip1Aug 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Their main weakness is being kited hard

and that's all you do as an adc

is kite

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

I'm sorry if I come across as rude, but pretty much anyone that's played ADC can kite and juggernauts have no mobility except for some CC or a quick leap.

You should specify that you shouldn't 1v1 a juggernaut as an adc unless you're straight fed in comparison to said juggernaut.

Jhin UItd JFKAug 9, 20162 votes

The (gameplay) boards need to find something to circle jerk about so when an ADC (which is SUPPOSED TO MELT TANKS) kills them while they're playing a tank it's automatically assumed that "hurr durr tanks are weak rito!!!!"

I'll give Riot credit, the game is pretty balanced right now. 10x better than the fiasco that was early season.

ForgiveColourAug 9, 20162 votes

+1111111111111 the thread in gameplay where it said arm pen adc are melting tanks in 2 seconds gave me cancer.

I think gameplay tank mains are never satisified unless theyre as ridiculous as they are when the season started

Sire HippingtonAug 9, 20162 votes

The usuall misunderstanding or poor wording on the boards. Tanks aren't bad(nor to strong) as they don't rely that much on beeing tanky, while tankiness isn't great atm and becomes totally obsolete come to endgame. However, tankiness spikes hard at 1-3 items, and since the game is so earlygame focosed, this results in tanky builts working out overall, despite falling apart lategame. The question is more wether that's a good design or not. I personaly Really prefer S2 tankiness, where you have the option of scaleing into late with tankiness if you want to rather than beeing forced into a mídgane powerspike on tanky champs that don't have insane cc that gives enough upfront impact so you don't have to survive all that long to do your job in a teamfight.

Reaper SorakaAug 9, 20161 votes

Tanks could use a buff imo. Items need the nerf, not the champions. I don't know why every single champion that deals physical damage is building Youmoo's, and riot is ignoring it. Clearly (at least in my eyes) there's a lack of armor to build in the majority of builds, or there is too much power in flat armor pen.

HateDaddyAug 9, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Reaper Soraka,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l670EIys,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-08-09T03:21:04.003+0000)

Tanks could use a buff imo. Items need the nerf, not the champions. I don't know why every single champion that deals physical damage is building Youmoo's, and riot is ignoring it. Clearly (at least in my eyes) there's a lack of armor to build in the majority of builds, or there is too much power in flat armor pen.

Flat. Pen. Is. Not. Good. Vs. Tanks.

Reaper SorakaAug 9, 20162 votes

I wasn't talking about flat pen vs tanks, and I still think they could use a hand. I should've been more clear, sorry.

Athenes LuluAug 9, 20161 votes

More like everyone is OP, but none of them really doing what they're supposed to do.

HateDaddyAug 9, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l670EIys,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-08-09T04:00:41.207+0000)

More like everyone is OP, but none of them really doing what they're supposed to do.

If everything is op, nothing is

Athenes LuluAug 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

If everything is op, nothing is

That's the point honestly.

HateDaddyAug 9, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l670EIys,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2016-08-09T14:10:08.803+0000)

That's the point honestly.

No I know, just echoing on what you stated

chipndip1Aug 9, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l670EIys,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-08-09T04:00:41.207+0000)

More like everyone is OP, but none of them really doing what they're supposed to do.

Optimistic, but untrue.

Shiro kuro jinxAug 9, 20161 votes

i do think tanks are bad ATM lol adc just gots to build lords or mortal. but how could a tank counter this?

WoonStruckAug 9, 20162 votes

My main issue with LDR is that it easily invalidates more than a sunfire cape's worth of stats, and also provides 1750g in combat stats, meaning its actual value comes closer to 4100g by default vs anything 100 bonus armor and more HP than them. If you buy more armor/HP, it easily becomes the most cost-efficient item in the game. The only time its a bad purchase is when you're facing ALL squishy champs.

That's not how counter-itemization is supposed to work. Counter-itemization is supposed to help you deal with extremes...not fuck over anyone that dares make the ADC deal less relative damage to them.

Its literally no better, balance-wise, than the old Last Whisper. Its actually worse because it makes ADCs counter tanks even harder, which is not what was needed. ADCs already tore through tanks with crit builds, and crit builds were made stronger with the marksmen update after item 3006 was rebuffed.

However, that's an entirely different topic about the current balance direction of LoL, not the state of tanks as a whole.

Unironic SJWAug 9, 20161 votes

Actually the change to old Last Whisper was that LW was good against SQUISHIES. It's supposed to shred tanks.

WoonStruckAug 9, 20161 votes

Yeah, their armor.

Mortal Reminder and LDR are busted though. It should have just offered pen+AD. It offers far more than enough with that alone. Its supposed to be a counter-item, not a 100% pick-up item. Riot didn't change that with its 'rework', and that's one of the issues they said it had.

HateDaddyAug 9, 20164 votes

{quoted}

i do think tanks are bad ATM lol adc just gots to build lords or mortal. but how could a tank counter this?

You kill the squishy zero defense target building it

Sahn UzalAug 9, 20161 votes

As a tank player, I don't want to build this piece of shit every game item 3068 to try and kill the enemie ADC. And I don't want to see my healthbar dissapear in a few seconds because the ADC with item 3036 is auto attacking me.

I don't want to deal a lot of damage, I want to soak damage when I'm playing a tank.

HateDaddyAug 9, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l670EIys,comment-id=0019,timestamp=2016-08-09T20:50:22.355+0000)

As a tank player, I don't want to build this piece of shit every game to try and kill the enemie ADC. And I don't want to see my healthbar dissapear in a few seconds because the ADC with is auto attacking me.

I don't want to deal a lot of damage, I want to soak damage when I'm playing a tank.

If you're stacking armor, it will take 5-6 seconds of unretaliated focus to kill you. It's literally impossible for an ADC to kill you in two seconds, barring something maybe like Kog.

You're plenty durable, taking 4-5 seconds to die when being focused by an entire team late game is the definition of being tanky.

But if you're playing just to be in the middle of the team with no strategy other than to just "damage soak," you're playing tanks incorrectly. tanks zone control so often times you don't even have to soak a lot of damage, simply zone an ADC, force them to kite you, then disengage and if they continue to chase they get out of position and are potentially in position to die and if they back off, they are zoned out of the fight. This is called zone control and tanks are by far the best at it but only if you actually understand how to do it. And a tip, it's not just bum rushing in and blowing all your cooldowns at once then getting 5 man focused and dying in 5 seconds and saying "wtf tanks suck argh!!!"

five oh tree Aug 9, 20161 votes

Thank god for someone having a brain on the boards... Everyone is crying for buffs to tanks because, "early cinderhulk meta was great guise!!11!1" and tanks should be able to duel assassins because "MuhRockPaperScissorsSaysSo." Personally, I think the game is balanced how it should be right now. There are oppressive things, annoying things, and strong things, but that's part of the game having diversity.

FortisDominusAug 9, 20161 votes

God bless you. I hade to explain in a thread acouple of days ago that flat armor pen is used to kill squishies and it sucks dick against tanks when they said "armor pen is too easy to obtain, im dying too fast as a tank".

ChaosThiefAug 9, 20161 votes

I think the argument is that tanks should be doing huge amounts of damage while still being hard to kill, which is quite frankly unhealthy.

That fits the definition of an actual tank (you know, armored metal vehicles that just run over everything) but wouldn't work balance wise without a sacrifice.