when people give suggestions like this, I ..... I.......... cry?
At least be reasonable, he uses his W mainly to catch enemies and then ults them; if he somehow (which happens all the time) loses his ults power from a zhonyas/QSS then he will insta die.
Also biggest thing is this would destroy his late game teamfighting, the ADC and APC will have zhonyas/QSS almost guaranteed.
DoFr6 votesyou mean like..talon's Late game? oh yea, assassins should be high risk high reward after all, right now all i see zed's thinking at level 5 is "the moment i ult him he dies"
mind you, he dodged abilities by ulting, deals decent damage in a short period, goes back.
what do YOU do during that time, is your problem, not his, he doesn't care about how negative that effects your gameplay, the fact that YOU have to itemize against him, not him itemizing against you.
the fact whether you died or not, he will still repeat the same methods of farming, Cast shadow in the middle of wave, aim for Q to hit minions and you, and the moment you're low enough, he switches places with his shadow to apply his passive on you, and Q as he walks away.
i'm not even mentioning ignite at this point either
now look at Talon, you don't really HAVE to itemize against him, having a pink ward will allow you to burst him down during his ult, he's Gankable, Buying Zhonya will not "Negate" a portion/Period of the damage from his kit, but eliminating it completely.
doing this will give other mages a room to breathe instead of the usual "oh crap he's 6!"
if you're going to tower dive someone at level 6, then you might aswell get punished for it just like EVERY OTHER CHAMPION
Ariel the Cruel4 votesHis W already gives him a lot of mobility tools. If this only affected his R2, then he could still use his W2 for escape. If he uses his W2 to engage or increase damage output, that's a conscious decision.
Honestly, I don't think his R2 is necessarily the problem. The problem is that he lacks overall counter-play to reflect all his strengths. He's a top tier duelist, split-pusher, clears waves quickly, high mobility, mixed damage, practically resourceless, has no weak point in game (except urgod lanes), AND his ult removes him from play to dodge anything in a fight if timed correctly. His only point of counter-lay is to abuse him if he F's up using his W (Counter-play is not the same as counter-build)
Compare him to LeBlanc (who also gets a lot of QQ, admittedly). She can also instantly 100-0 someone at almost any point in the game and enjoys hyper mobility with an incredibly safe play pattern. But she doesn't duel well, split push, wave clear, deal mixed damage, have untargetability, and has to deal with mana constraints (especially early game). Of the 2, I'd argue LB is a lot healthier for the game. (I acknowledge this isn't a perfect comparison, but it's the best I've got).
Or compare to Akali. Can 100-0 someone, mixed damage, near impossible to peel, minimal energy constraints. Weak wave clear, dueling, tower killing, She has to hide in shroud after her all in because her assassination pattern drains her energy bar and leaves her in the middle of a fight - Thus she dies to pink wards and AoE effects, and her lane phase is weak to the point she potentially looses to anyone not a unicorn.
I reiterate. I don't think his R2 is a problem in a vacuum. The problem is that his kit is horrendously overloaded and there's no exploitable weaknesses.
LankPants3 votesAlso biggest thing is this would destroy his late game teamfighting, the ADC and APC will have zhonyas/QSS almost guaranteed.
So he'd have to deal with the same things other assassins who aren't Zed/LB/Fizz deal with?
If you play any assassin with a shred of counterplay put into their design they generally are fucked if they dive into a carry without considering their cooldowns. That's why until season 3 when riot started overloading the game with defensive mobility assassins mostly played a clean up role.
Zed certainly needs some limitation on his safety.
AHeroNamedHawke1 votesSo he'd have to deal with the same things other assassins who aren't Zed/LB/Fizz deal with?
Like who?
Diana has a shield and can build Hourglass Fizz has E and Hourglass Ahri has ult and Hourglass Talon has stealth and a movespeed boost Akali has stealth and a movespeed boost, as well as Hourglass KZ has multiple stealthed movespeed boosts, and his jump if he gets any assists Rengar has bonus resists and a movespeed boost Yi has meditate and a movespeed boost KassadinHasNoEscapes.jpeg
You arbitrarily decided Zed should be the only assassin in the game to die if his target has Hourglass because you dont like him
LankPants4 votesDiana has a shield and can build Hourglass Fizz has E and Hourglass Ahri has ult and Hourglass Akali has stealth and a movespeed boost, as well as Hourglass KassadinHasNoEscapes.jpeg (He can build hourglass)
Hourglass is an item, you need to build it for it to be effective. So it's an investment, similar to if Zed builds QSS. It also leaves you in a fairly shitty situation in 2.5 seconds in a lot of situations.
Diana has a shield and can build Hourglass Rengar has bonus resists and a movespeed boost
Which mean nothing if you try to get away with building what Zed does, you'll live an extra .1 seconds.
Ahri has ult and Hourglass Yi has meditate and a movespeed boost
Ahri and Yi aren't really assassins.
Talon has stealth and a movespeed boost Akali has stealth and a movespeed boost, as well as Hourglass KZ has multiple stealthed movespeed boosts, and his jump if he gets any assists
Which leaves them all very vulnerable to any form of stealth detection. As for short burst movespeed as an escape it's never as good as simply blinking away like Zed does.
KZ has multiple stealthed movespeed boosts, and his jump if he gets any assists (I'm going to add Kat here because she fits very well too)
This is what the OP is suggesting for Zed, he would effectively only have an escape if his target dies, as lets be realistic, the first person to die in the majority of teamfights would be Zed's target anyway.
Fizz has E and Hourglass KassadinHasNoEscapes.jpeg
Fizz is just as bad as Zed, I mentioned him. Kass honestly has major design flaws, I doubt his design will ever be balanced in both competitive and casual play.
Other assassins can just die if they go onto a target with an hourglass. If I dive a Syndra as Akali and she hourglasses then her Thresh throws a sweeper on my shroud I'm either down a flash or dead. Maybe if I hourglass I can force a 1 for 1, but I'd have to play incredibly well at that point.
While Diana and Rengar can survive this scenario in order to do so they have to build very defensively, at which point they're more bruisers than assassins.
If I pull the same bullshit as Zed I can just press R again and act as if nothing ever happened, in fact I come out a little ahead because hourglass's cooldown is longer than Zed's ult.
You arbitrarily decided Zed should be the only assassin in the game to die if his target has Hourglass because you dont like him
Using your logic Zed would be fine, he still has his W blink after he ults in.
AHeroNamedHawke1 votesFizz has E and Hourglass Ahri has ult and Hourglass Akali has stealth and a movespeed boost, as well as Hourglass KassadinHasNoEscapes.jpeg (He can build hourglass)
Hourglass is an item, you need to build it for it to be effective. So it's an investment, similar to if Zed builds QSS. It also leaves you in a fairly shitty situation in 2.5 seconds in a lot of situations. Rengar has bonus resists and a movespeed boost
Which mean nothing if you try to get away with building what Zed does, you'll live an extra .1 seconds. Yi has meditate and a movespeed boost
Ahri and Yi aren't really assassins. Akali has stealth and a movespeed boost, as well as Hourglass KZ has multiple stealthed movespeed boosts, and his jump if he gets any assists
Which leaves them all very vulnerable to any form of stealth detection. As for short burst movespeed as an escape it's never as good as simply blinking away like Zed does. (I'm going to add Kat here because she fits very well too)
This is what the OP is suggesting for Zed, he would effectively only have an escape if his target dies, as lets be realistic, the first person to die in the majority of teamfights would be Zed's target anyway. KassadinHasNoEscapes.jpeg
Fizz is just as bad as Zed, I mentioned him. Kass honestly has major design flaws, I doubt his design will ever be balanced in both competitive and casual play.
Other assassins can just die if they go onto a target with an hourglass. If I dive a Syndra as Akali and she hourglasses then her Thresh throws a sweeper on my shroud I'm either down a flash or dead. Maybe if I hourglass I can force a 1 for 1, but I'd have to play incredibly well at that point.
While Diana and Rengar can survive this scenario in order to do so they have to build very defensively, at which point they're more bruisers than assassins.
If I pull the same bullshit as Zed I can just press R again and act as if nothing ever happened, in fact I come out a little ahead because hourglass's cooldown is longer than Zed's ult.
Using your logic Zed would be fine, he still has his W blink after he ults in.
Zed will never have his W up after ulting unless your mid is comatose. Is he just going to walk past your front line and press R when within 625 range?
Zed never teamfights to begin with because he's absolutely garbage at it. Blinking back 625 units when your target Hourglasses directly onto the enemy tank line with no cooldowns is a surefire way to die horribly. That's why he splitpushes, and that's his actual problem. Basically no one can deal with a rank 3 Death Mark where he is allowed to attack you for the full 3 seconds, but in a late game teamfight he has roughly .5 seconds to burst a carry before getting peeled, assuming they don't have QSS/Hourglass
DrCyanide3 votes
Stealth in, or stealth out. Not both.
Stealth to get close, try and run fast to close the gap, deal damage, and escape.
Dive in, but I don't think your spell shield or movespeed path will help you survive long enough to get you out
"Just CC him". If people can throw this around for how to counter Yi, it's fair to say it can be thrown out as a way to stop him from escaping, even if he gets a kill.
No kill? No pentakill. Also no ward hop back to safety.
How many ult charges will it take for you to get to the back line? You're going to have issues getting back out if the answer is more than 1.
Also, you seem to be under this impression that using 
in the back of the enemy team without killing anyone is a good place to be. Hourglass does not get you out of a 1v5 situation, Zed's current ult does (and has at the pro level).
Personally, Shaco's my jungler of choice, and I think he's a good model for what assassins should be. Strong, upfront burst, but weak escape if you dive someone that's properly positioned. , He's also not just mashing QWER in a certain order as fast as possible to get the kill/do damage and get out.
AHeroNamedHawke2 votes
Also, you seem to be under this impression that using
Personally, Shaco's my jungler of choice, and I think he's a good model for what assassins should be. Strong, upfront burst, but weak escape if you dive someone that's properly positioned. , He's also not just mashing QWER in a certain order as fast as possible to get the kill/do damage and get out.
Shaco, just like Zed, splitpushes because he is garbage at teamfighting Eve builds tanky so that she can sit on a team with her ult shield, she hasn't been an assassin for a long time Yi is best built tanky for the same reason Do you know how you play Kat? QEWR -> Hourglass when turned on -> Assist during Hourglass if you didn't get a kill -> Everyone dies And Ahri doesn't have to get into melee like Zed does to burst someone, she has a much easier time picking them off
Apparently because being invulnerable in the middle of the enemy team for 2.5 seconds is a terrible idea, we should force Zed to stand in the middle of the enemy team for 3 seconds, and this will be perfectly fine?
You can just say you want Zed to be trash tier, we dont need to dance around it
DrCyanide2 votesZed shouldn't be trash tier. I'd be sad if Zed went the way of the Akali or Evelynn (aka: nerfed so hard I haven't seen her on anything other than ARAM).
I think my problem with the Assassin class is that Riot is very inconsistent with them.
One of the common definitions of the Assassin is that they should be able to pick off a champion that's out of position, yet there are assassins that can dive to the carry which is in position and kill them before their team can react. Another statement is that Assassins should be high risk, high reward, yet there are Assassins that feel incredibly low risk, even when going in for the kill.
Zed is at this point where it feels like he's not forced to pick a target that's out of position, nor is he high risk with his instant blink back. I think you'll see that when both of these are true for an assassin, there are a lot of complaints about that champion, be that Katarina, LeBlanc, Fizz, or Zed.
Ideally, I'd like Riot to specify their stance on Assassins, and have all assassins fit into either the "high risk, high reward" camp or the "burst someone who's out of position" camp, with no champions in between.
Mooing Kev1 votesSo he'd have to deal with the same things other assassins who aren't Zed/LB/Fizz deal with?
If you play any assassin with a shred of counterplay put into their design they generally are fucked if they dive into a carry without considering their cooldowns. That's why until season 3 when riot started overloading the game with defensive mobility assassins mostly played a clean up role.
Zed certainly needs some limitation on his safety.
He has safety cause his assassination success rate isn't high.I assure you late game his assassination probably has the highest fail rate. Yeh sure you can press R again to safety but what use is an assassin who's ult is merely a leblanc W but longer range . Sure an assassin like talon has to commit but boy does he deliver. He deletes squishies while chunking half the team with his aoe spells compared to zed who is usually forced to save his ult for either a support or clean up low hp targets cuz you simply cannot ult in the beginning of the team fight where all the adcs and mages have their qss and zhonya ready. This is why zed split push has to be really good. Team fighting with him is rather hard and requires the perfect team comp or superb teamfight awareness from the zed player. Pretty much every assassin cept akali and khazix maybe has better teamfight than zed.
thinking man2 votesIf you guys want to add risk to him then you need to remove counterplay as well.
That's also completely pointless since this only makes it harder for him to teamfight and towerdive.
PoisonedPeace3 votesI think OP is implying that his kit has little counter play (beyond items like QSS and Zhonya's) and that it also has pretty much 0 risk.
thinking man2 votesI think OP is implying that his kit has little counter play (beyond items like QSS and Zhonya's) and that it also has pretty much 0 risk.
QSS/Zhonya's are so complete in counterplay, though.
He actually has the most counterplay of any assassin and you have the most options to prevent yourself from dying save from turning around and killing the assassin. If you want to lower his strength in being able to escape bad fights, then you need to remove counterplay from his assassination so that it's more complete. You cannot make a champion go 0 for 1 instead of going 0 for 0 or 1 for 0. It has to be an almost complete 1 for 1 if you're gonna add risk.
PoisonedPeace2 votes{quoted} You cannot make a champion go 0 for 1 instead of going 0 for 0 or 1 for 0. It has to be an almost complete 1 for 1 if you're gonna add risk.
I disagree. I think it is unfair for a champion to be guarteed to go 1/0 or 0/0 when they all in. That means they are 100% safe when they all in. Assassins like Kat do more damage than Zed and even AoE + resets, but I have the opportunity to kill Kat if she goes all in.
Moreover, Kat is much more oppressive than Zed right now, and she has infinitely more counter play than Zed. If Kat all ins, anybody with CC can cancel her ult+Zhoya's lasts for the duration of her ult. There are plenty of champions that can defend themselves and out play an all in Kat.
Any time you outplay an all in Zed, even if he tower dives you, he just presses R again.
I'm not saying Zed is OP. I am actually pretty satisfied with where he is right now, but as far as coutner play goes, you really only have one option. If you're an AD champ, that one option sets you behind for the rest of the game.
thinking man1 votesI disagree. I think it is unfair for a champion to be guarteed to go 1/0 or 0/0 when they all in. That means they are 100% safe when they all in. Assassins like Kat do more damage than Zed and even AoE + resets, but I have the opportunity to kill Kat if she goes all in.
Moreover, Kat is much more oppressive than Zed right now, and she has infinitely more counter play than Zed. If Kat all ins, anybody with CC can cancel her ult+Zhoya's lasts for the duration of her ult. There are plenty of champions that can defend themselves and out play an all in Kat.
Any time you outplay an all in Zed, even if he tower dives you, he just presses R again.
I'm not saying Zed is OP. I am actually pretty satisfied with where he is right now, but as far as coutner play goes, you really only have one option. If you're an AD champ, that one option sets you behind for the rest of the game.
If you are going to make a champion that is not a guaranteed 100-0 that can have potentially have of their damage removed with a single item, then they need to be safe. For an assassin to be good, they must either be extremely safe or kill extremely quickly. Although Kat is countered by CC, saying that alone makes them have more counterplay is absurd since every single assassin will die if you CC them. Furthermore, QSS does not set you behind unless you use it badly.
PoisonedPeace1 votesQSS does not set you behind unless you use it badly.
So youre telling me that buying QSS instead of BF doesn't set you behind....and conversation is over lol
DrCyanide2 votesIf you guys want to add risk to him then you need to remove counterplay as well.
Sorry, that's not how Riot balances the game.
Riot added counterplay, but did not reduce the risks Veigar has. You shouldn't assume that counterplay and risk are attached on the same sliding scale.
UdoIkOSc4u1 votesmaybe it is too much and ruins the point of his r maybe he can use it only when the death mark appear?
PoisonedPeace1 votesI hate when a Zed ults you, then you completely outplay him, think you're going to kill him, then at the last second he presses one key and completely avoids any harm.
There is no way to outplay him unless you outplay him into his ult shadow, at which point he probably just runs away.
Earl Eulrich1 votesI´d agree that that wouldn´t be the smartest option to nerf him..but >70%winrate in any proleague around the planet just showcase that he´s far too abuseable by good players currently. I personally would like them to seriously nerf his q-poke if he doesn´t hit both spells and further tune down the auto-attacks. An AD-Assassin shouldn´t be rushing Botrk+Ghostblade to just right-click win any all in...and maybe nerf his base-tankiness a little more. Also, his ult-cd is ridiculously low, there really isn´t ever a window when you can feel safe because it´s down.
The Whamboozler1 votesUm, I fail to see how only letting him swap back to his R shadow if the target is dead (Or the deathmark damage about to proc will MAKE them dead) is a bad thing. He can still swap to his W shadow. All this means for Zed is if he wants an out after ulting someone he'll have to leave a W behind before going in with R. And if they hourglass or spellshield his R then... he presses W and he's out.
Seriously... this change wouldn't do much at all to keep Zed from being insanely safe.
Best Darius KR1 votesYEA GUYS YOU CAN'T JUST REMOVE ZED'S SAFETY OTHERWISE
otherwise he will just become Talon
And nobody wants THAT am i right?
Voluug131 votesI agree. Zed has too much going for him in lane, its makes him completly obnoxious to play against him. You cant outplay him because he can get away after whatever error he makes unless you CC him for 5 seconds while bursting him.
Doesnt helps Riot loves to nerf/rework/remove every possible counter Zed has. Kayle? Nerfed. Zilean? Reworked. Lissandra? Nerfed. True Karma? Removed&Reemplazed. Oh, and they stealth buffed him when the mana regen rework went live. Now mana champions have to struggle to keep up with the manaless safe prince of midlane.
