CertainlyT Champions all bad?

TheDevice·Jan 31, 2018·3 votes·1,604 views

So much blowing out of proportions and over-exaggerating the capabilities of his champions I just thought it would be easier to actually ask how many of his champions people find problematic.

Are all of them problematic or just one or two? Obviously lots of people take issue with Yasuo and Zoe but he's made six champions plus one rework (warwick). Is all this hate and anger over just two champions, or all of them? Should they all be deleted/reworked? Lets get to the heart of this anger.

This should maybe help get a better perspective on things I think.

33 Comments

JamareeJan 31, 20184 votes

As much hate as he gets, they aren’t that bad after a while. Everyone whines about them at release like every champion then after the qq subsides, people realize that they aren’t that bad.

People whines non stop about Darius true damage ultimate, then people realized you can free kite him.

Yasou, while annoying to play against, high Eli players like qtpie and scarra say he isn’t that bad and you need to improve to beat him, the list goes on.

HalcyonDwellerJan 31, 20181 votes

With regards to a few specific champions, it is the principle of the thing, not just whether or not it is counterable.

Being able to erase an opponent's power-fantasy with Wind Wall is a horrible experience for the opponent - especially if the ability they used has a long cooldown.

Additionally, having such low cooldowns that you can get away with mistakes by covering them with subsequent ability casts is not fair or engaging for opponents. Referring to Yasuo and Zoe.

JamareeJan 31, 20181 votes

{quoted}

With regards to a few specific champions, it is the principle of the thing, not just whether or not it is counterable.

Being able to erase an opponent's power-fantasy with Wind Wall is a horrible experience for the opponent - especially if the ability they used has a long cooldown.

Additionally, having such low cooldowns that you can get away with mistakes by covering them with subsequent ability casts is not fair or engaging for opponents. Referring to Yasuo and Zoe.

Zoe does need toning down with her numbers but Zoe can’t afford to make mistakes actually.

Unless she has her flash up or spell thieved a flash, you jump on her, she is dead and remember her ultimate isn’t an escape, it puts her right back where she was.

Yasou on the other hand, I can see what you are talking about.

HalcyonDwellerJan 31, 20181 votes

Thanks for understanding about yasuo. It's not like I think he is OP, I just think that the way his abilities work are really unfair for opponents - especially because those opponents get so much less agency over their situation than he does.

I did not articulate well about Zoe, let me try to present the idea in my head more clearly. I've had trades with her where she gets to chunk me and walk away and I can't do anything about it because of the way her CC works and how long it lasts. Between it's travel time, trap duration, and refunds if it hits, the ability has a shorter effective cooldown than what the tooltip says, and it has a long effective uptime even after casting it because of how long it lasts.

It feels absolutely terrible to juke and then get hit anyways because of the trap, or to be forced to stand there and do nothing when you know paddlestar is incoming and you could easily juke it but you're stuck. Zoe's E removes the counterplay of her paddlestar, which is juking it's rather small hitbox. Giving these champions ways to completely bypass their counterplay removes the risk from their risk-reward tradeoff.

JamareeFeb 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

It feels absolutely terrible to juke and then get hit anyways because of the trap, or to be forced to stand there and do nothing when you know paddlestar is incoming and you could easily juke it but you're stuck. Zoe's E removes the counterplay of her paddlestar, which is juking it's rather small hitbox. Giving these champions ways to completely bypass their counterplay removes the risk from their risk-reward tradeoff.

That is every champion in the game though, or at least ones that are viable. There are ways to circumvent their weaknesses with proper utilization of their kits. Like how Darius has trouble effectively hitting his Q if his opponent is playing smart thus can pressure with his E, or how Yi's kit revolves entirely on sticking point blank on people and thus gets his ultimate to compensate, the list goes on.

HalcyonDwellerFeb 1, 20181 votes

It's a bit different when the risk-reward levels are as high or higher than Nidalee spears and they are combined with cc.

It is the combination of something like Nidalee spears with something like Sleepy Trouble Bubble that forces you to stop, bend over, and take it like a ____. In the past, this sort of thing required teamwork to make picks, or the poke abilities had wider skillshots and lower damage, but in this case, Zoe can do this by herself for the entirety of the laning phase... making the laning phase significantly less fair or fun for her opponent.

JamareeFeb 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

It's a bit different when the risk-reward levels are as high or higher than Nidalee spears and they are combined with cc.

It is the combination of something like Nidalee spears with something like Sleepy Trouble Bubble that forces you to stop, bend over, and take it like a ____. In the past, this sort of thing required teamwork to make picks, or the poke abilities had wider skillshots and lower damage, but in this case, Zoe can do this by herself for the entirety of the laning phase... making the laning phase significantly less fair or fun for her opponent.

You also have to factor in Nidalee has innate escape and sustain if you are going to compare the two.

HalcyonDwellerFeb 1, 20181 votes

That sort of combination with long range high reward harass seems perfectly fine to me. It doesn't take agency away from opponents.

paddle-star has the same long range high damage trick to it, however it is on a kit with long duration cc. The two should not be present together in that manner on such a kit.

Honestly I would be happy if the CC duration were reduced on Zoe's Sleep. Perhaps moreso when it lands closer to her. OR at least make it work like Nami's bubble so it cant hit people instantly if they are right on top of her.

I'm just looking for less frustrating counterplay, not a gutting.

Hèntaî Jan 31, 20181 votes

Being able to erase an opponent's power-fantasy with Wind Wall is a horrible experience for the opponent - especially if the ability they used has a long cooldown.

Most people dont bait the wall like they should be doing. If the Yasuo is being pressured he will 80% of the time pop the Windwall to try to 'save' himself. Basically it boils down to, if you know he has the windwall dont blow all your abilities or biggest one in an attempt to try and kill him. The blame wont fall on just him as a champion, but yourself as well knowing he has it up if he windwalls your combo.

HalcyonDwellerJan 31, 20181 votes

I know that he has counterplay, I already said so myself. Yasuo is balanced, I'm well aware of that. If that's all you came here to argue about then please go away, it's off topic from my discussion.

The functionality of Wind Wall is extremely crappy for opponents. Even if it has perfectly reasonable counterplay of baiting it out, some characters can't do that, or situations arise where it can't be done anyways. In the end all that really matters to me about this is how awful it feels for Yasuo's opponents when he uses Wind Wall to unmake one of their long-cooldown abilities or one of their especially great plays.

Tanking away the reward for using a high cost or a high investment play is really bad design because it violates expectations much worse than simply being out-played.

Hèntaî Feb 1, 20181 votes

Well I never wanted to start an arguement. I just put what I felt I should, judging on how I read that, Im sorry if I struck some sort of nerve if I did. Every champion has a way to bait it, heck even shyvana can bait it pretty well and she is a melee(I lol everytime I see a yasuo try to wall a shyvana, its too funny). Baiting it isnt even the only thing that comes into play with it too. I think its called macro play that you do, like judging the cooldowns and what not(Im rusty with the terms forgive me). And plus it wouldnt have been a reward if the person knew that the windwall was going to be in the way. As I said, if you know that the windwall is up, that is on you and you learn from that for the next fight.

HalcyonDwellerFeb 1, 20181 votes

Understood. Thank you for your input, however this discussion is about the quality of counterplay, not the balance of it.

ShaolinToiletFeb 1, 20181 votes

You think yasuo is unfair because you are not good enough

HalcyonDwellerFeb 1, 20182 votes

What is your intention with that comment. Do you intend to spark a discussion or spark an argument?

Just trying to clear things up before we begin.

ShaolinToiletFeb 1, 20181 votes

Just telling you the truth that you are denying on the inside

HalcyonDwellerFeb 1, 20182 votes

I see. Well your hat is silly.

[vlad-salute]

Feel free to come back when you have something valuable to say regarding the actual subject of the thread.

ShaolinToiletFeb 1, 20181 votes

Yours is an opinion while mine is a fact

HalcyonDwellerFeb 1, 20182 votes

*yawn* I said to come back when you have something valuable to say. This doesn't look much like that. You're not using your ability to comment for it's intended or even allowed purpose amigo. Don't you have anything better to do with your time?

If the answer looks anything like "no" then seeya. I won't be back.

KVbqbFsC8eJan 31, 20184 votes

Every single champion he has designed has been a balance nightmare.

TheDeviceFeb 1, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Big Piece,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l2hRx659,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-01-31T21:24:00.378+0000)

Every single champion he has designed has been a balance nightmare.

Name all the champions that have not been a balancing nightmare at some point.

There's really only a few and they are just those static / seen-every-pro-game type champions which are only a handful.

KVbqbFsC8eFeb 1, 20182 votes

Darius, Thresh, Zyra, Yasuo, Kalista, and Zoe. Those have all had problems due to their kits. Other champions typically have had balance issues because of archaic designs or items.

TheDeviceFeb 1, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Big Piece,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l2hRx659,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2018-02-01T02:16:30.159+0000)

Darius, Thresh, Zyra, Yasuo, Kalista, and Zoe.

No. Let me rephrase: Name all the champions in the game that have not been a balancing nightmare at some point.

Probably half the roster at some point have had balancing issues. Thresh? Which support hasn't been troublesome balance-wise at one point? Braum maybe? Darius? Which top laner hasn't had some balancing issue? I can't even think of one. Yorick? Maybe? Zyra was just sorta nerfed and moved to support which has happened to a lot of midlane mages. Kalista is an adc... all adc's have had issues Yasuo probably has some legitimate issues and maybe/perhaps zoe though too early to tell imo.

KVbqbFsC8eFeb 1, 20185 votes

The difference is why they have been balance problems. CertainlyTs champions have overloaded kits that make them very difficult to balance.

TheDeviceFeb 1, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Big Piece,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l2hRx659,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-01T02:21:39.816+0000)

The difference is why they have been balance problems. CertainlyTs champions have overloaded kits that make them very difficult to balance.

Vayne doesn't have an overloaded kit yet shes been difficult to manage balance-wise multiple seasons.

I suppose it comes down to your own idea of whats overloaded. Is darius really that overloaded? Is he any more/less overloaded than other top laners liike fiora, camille, riven or gnar ffs? Gnar and jayce (not to mention nid) can have access to ranged and melee, both have hard ccs, movement buffs and all sorts of stuff. Why does nobody complain about their creators?

Should we also be deleting half the roster of champions who seem overloaded to the majority of boards like fizz, lee sin, kayne, ekko, orianna, azir etc. They have all sorts of stuff crammed into their kits.

ModKnightsKemplarFeb 1, 20181 votes

Warwick

Again, not sure why people are ignoring the most successful rework Riot has produced (according to their data). CertainlyT has ambitious designs; he's well aware that they can cause problems, and Riot clearly thinks that the added value more than makes up for the problems. I tend to agree.

SuperLuigiLXIVJan 31, 20183 votes

CertainlyT's champion designs are overloaded. There's no two ways about it. That some of the older ones are more in line thanks to the mobility/power creep catching up to them in no way diminishes how bad they were when they were designed.

That being said, his reworks are on point for the most part. He's done four reworks, for Warwick, Mordekaiser, Graves, and Caitlyn, and Morde's the only one that didn't succeed across the board. And the mechanics he designs are good. He just puts too many of them into each champion he makes.

So I think he shouldn't be allowed to make new champions, but for reworking a champion without losing the spirit of the original design, or for designing new mechanics entirely, he's by far my favorite Rioter.

TheDeviceJan 31, 20181 votes

{quoted}

CertainlyT's champion designs are overloaded. There's no two ways about it. That some of the older ones are more in line thanks to the mobility/power creep catching up to them in no way diminishes how bad they were when they were designed.

That being said, his reworks are on point for the most part. He's done four reworks, for Warwick, Mordekaiser, Graves, and Caitlyn, and Morde's the only one that didn't succeed across the board. And the mechanics he designs are good. He just puts too many of them into each champion he makes.

So I think he shouldn't be allowed to make new champions, but for reworking a champion without losing the spirit of the original design, or for designing new mechanics entirely, he's by far my favorite Rioter.

I didnt really include Morde/Graves/Cait in his reworks since they weren't really full reworks. They got some new stuff but stayed relatively similar to their original kits. WW was a complete overhaul (practically a new champion)

SuperLuigiLXIVJan 31, 20181 votes

I'll give you Cait and Morde, but the change to the way autoattacks work for Graves, the AoE and the reloading, that was significant enough to consider him a rework if you ask me. And it was a brilliant redesign, in my opinion. :)

EnderspiderJan 31, 20182 votes

CertainlyT's champions are great, but a bunch aren't really fit for a pvp game as whether they do well or not is almost 100% dependant on who plays the champion rather than spread among those playing them and those playing against them. This is why they have large counterplay issues and have no really clear counters like some champs. No offense though, he's made some good champions with actual counterplay that contibute to the game. Thresh Darius . One thing he needs to do more is think about people playing against the champ rather than just about people playing them, if he does this I think he adds great champions to the game. (except for you Yasuo )

KivolanFeb 1, 20182 votes

People need to remember that Darius , at the time of his release, was extremely OP. At that time shit like MonkeyKing was considered a lane bully. Do you know how badly Darius shits on Wukong? Nowadays he's not so bad since he can more easily be kited thanks to the seventeen thousand dashes in the game.

Zyra , as we have seen, has needed numerous tweaks to her plants to be more in line, but I'd say she was the most successful CT release... And she wasn't even really his, considering two other Rioters helped.

Thresh has the Lulu symptom of "I do everything well" which kind of pushed out other supports for a bit, but he's probably the most successful CT release to date.

Kalista 's passive will always leave her either as godtier or in the gutter. There's simply no in between.