Pantheon is even more ridiculous with lethality changes

HateDaddy·Jul 15, 2017·104 votes·4,865 views

It's time to dumpster this champion into garbage tier until his rework. He has no gameplay whatsoever and he does not fall off until very late game. He's maintained a 54% winrate and 7-9% pickrate for the last 6 months. It has nothing to do with picks or counterpicks, pantheon has been OP for a long time and he shouldn't be allowed to even exist because he offers no meaningful counterplay to his opponents.

The bronze and silver lords on this board are going to white knight him and use the same old tired ass, worn out arguments of "just don't cs for the first 30 minutes, he falls off, just counterpick him, just gank him, just don't play the game when he's picked." I beg of you to disregard it, people have realized he's been a problem for a long time and riot has done nothing about it. It's time to do something about it.

113 Comments

five oh tree Jul 15, 201749 votes

Having 7 cs at 10 minutes so you don't feed is counterplay, don't know what you're talking about.

HateDaddyJul 15, 201714 votes

[{quoted}](name=Time And a Half,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kx4Iznvv,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-07-15T22:52:41.343+0000)

Having 7 cs at 10 minutes so you don't feed is counterplay, don't know what you're talking about.

Right? Watching him snowball the rest of the map post 6 while also being the best lane bully in the game is totally reasonable.

Torterra62Jul 16, 20171 votes

its a sarcastic comment

Hyrum GraffJul 16, 201726 votes

{quoted}

its a sarcastic comment

http://images.hellogiggles.com/uploads/2015/12/16/maxresdefault1.jpg

JunkοJul 15, 201717 votes

He does fall off late game, the problem is that late game 99% of the time never comes anymore because games end early, which is exactly what he is good at.

HateDaddyJul 15, 201716 votes

{quoted}

He does fall off late game, the problem is that late game 99% of the time never comes anymore because games end early, which is exactly what he is good at.

What do you consider late game? Because he doesn't fall off until 40+, which isn't a reasonable time frame to justify his oppressive early and mid game.

JunkοJul 15, 20173 votes

I would say he falls off when game reaches like the final 2 items for everyone in the game, at that point he is worse than pretty much every single assassin at doing his job, he can kill 1 person (maybe) and then dies. But like I said, games barely even reach that point, from my experience it's a miracle if you finish 3 items in a serious game.

I won't disagree that he is complete cancer early game, sadly he isn't on update priority (even though he needs both a visual and a gameplay update) so I don't see Riot nerfing him into inviability any time soon.

HateDaddyJul 16, 201713 votes

{quoted}

I would say he falls off when game reaches like the final 2 items for everyone in the game, at that point he is worse than pretty much every single assassin at doing his job, he can kill 1 person (maybe) and then dies. But like I said, games barely even reach that point, from my experience it's a miracle if you finish 3 items in a serious game.

I won't disagree that he is complete cancer early game, sadly he isn't on update priority (even though he needs both a visual and a gameplay update) so I don't see Riot nerfing him into inviability any time soon.

If he gets one kill even when he "falls off," that's not falling off. Being damn near assured to take one champion down is the antithesis of falling off. And as I stated, statistics suggest he doesn't even fall off until roughly 40+.

JunkοJul 16, 20172 votes

He is not damn near assured to kill a champion though. Compared to assassins like Zed, Rengar, Talon, Kayn, etc who can all come out of absolutely nowhere, Pantheon has a pretty telegraphed ult that is honestly better used to just group with your team faster, while his only other options of getting close to his target is running at them until he is in W range which is easy when you are forced to interact with him 1v1 in lane, but much harder when your target is most likely protected by team.

Statistics actually show that he falls off constantly as the game goes on, but considering his winrate starts at near 60% + oppressive playstyle I can see why it might not seem like it.

HateDaddyJul 16, 20177 votes

{quoted}

He is not damn near assured to kill a champion though. Compared to assassins like Zed, Rengar, Talon, Kayn, etc who can all come out of absolutely nowhere, Pantheon has a pretty telegraphed ult that is honestly better used to just group with your team faster, while his only other options of getting close to his target is running at them until he is in W range which is easy when you are forced to interact with him 1v1 in lane, but much harder when your target is most likely protected by team.

Pantheon is just as assured a kill on an isolated target as the rest of them. In fact, of all the assassins, he has the least amount of counterplay in isolated circumstances. His ult doesn't have to land on them, it simply has to be used to flank. Given that circumstances, it's much better than Zed who has to walk. His teamfight does fall off but that clearly isn't happening until 40+ minutes.

aspects1Jul 16, 201712 votes

your just mad lel let me guess. you got pubstomped in lane by him, then he proceeded to carry the game, and your entire teamed blamed classic boards gameplay thread

AirKingNeoJul 16, 20174 votes

There's no way to beat Pantheon in lane unless you have a jungler.

Also we've known Pantheon having 54% winrate for 14+ patches.

ChaosThiefJul 16, 201710 votes

You're*

And pantheon is a champion you will lose lane to regardless of your champion unless you have extra help. His kit is a range check; you get into range of his Q, he throws it at you, get in range of his W he all ins you with a low chance that you can outdamage him in time.

His AD ratios are very high (100% bonus on his Q, 240% bonus on his E) and if you want to be comical, his AP ratios are also high (100% AP on his W and R)

He can build 1-2 AD items and outdamage pretty much any champion building the same two items because of his ratios. Picking him mid lane also gives him rather scary roaming capability, with his long ranged leap of his ult, allowing him to snowball other lanes besides his own.

Late game, he feels utterly worthless. They avoid your W's range and you only have ult to go in with, and if you go in with your ult, unless a teamfight has begun, you will do absolutely nothing versus your chosen opponent because they will turn and kill you on the spot.

Pantheon does need a rework. His kit is a bland range check against his lane opponent, if he's in range he wins, if not he loses. I really liked to play full AD pantheon, and to be blunt, you fall off the moment the enemy gets a single defensive item against you.

Rins Thigh SocksJul 16, 201710 votes

I like Hashinshin's approach.

Pantheon - Q cost from 45 at all ranks to 45/73/184/3832/infinity

General Esdeath Jul 16, 20177 votes

item 1054

kasfasJul 16, 20176 votes

Replace pantheon with jayce and this pretty much still holds true.

HateDaddyJul 16, 20179 votes

{quoted}

Replace pantheon with jayce and this pretty much still holds true.

Jayce has mana costs

Akali is SO HOTJul 16, 201710 votes

Jayce is still cancer to lane against tho

AwesomeGuyDjJul 16, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kx4Iznvv,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2017-07-16T02:47:41.785+0000)

Jayce is still cancer to lane against tho

At least you can play around jayce. He has to actually land q, and pull off his combos.

BârdJul 16, 20174 votes

Except they lowered them so much that he doesn't even need Tear anymore.

ZardoJul 16, 20173 votes

No, if he doesnt build tear, he can't poke with his eq in lane, or hell be oom. People build lethality and armor pen so he can one shot if he hits his full combo.

IllumnicJul 16, 20171 votes

Have you ever played Panth? You run out of mana rather quickly lol

WoonStruckJul 16, 20172 votes

Not before their HP bar, excluding a full armor rune-page Nasus that starts cloth+4.

MunchCrunchLunchJul 16, 20176 votes

increase his Q cd and lower the damage. its ridiculous tbh.

SithesisLordJul 16, 20174 votes

And increase mana costs. He barely even goes OOM with Corrupting Potion.

SpookyNeedleJul 16, 20176 votes

Gutting someone until their rework (even if it's pantheon) should not be something we wish for. No champ should ever be gutted. Now, I, and most likely many other Fiora mains absolutely hate pantheon. (Not to mention that he counters my entire toplane champ pool) A slight nerf following the lethality buffs is warranted until his rework, but making a champion practically unplayable is going too far.

CatastrophicJul 16, 20175 votes

Actually, if a champion has an overall unhealthy kit that can't be fixed by number changes, I'd always rather see them dumpstered than meta or viable, c tier or below is fine with me.

Tommy PickleNoseJul 16, 20171 votes

Like Olaf was. Oh the days of terrible Olaf

WoonStruckJul 16, 20172 votes

Olaf was never as terrible as people like to think. People were just sheeping.

They touched absolutely nothing about him and he came back into meta with pure HP builds, more prevalently top lane instead of jungle. He was underwhelming when his Q MS decayed, but that's it. He was still utilized in pro play while it decayed, just not until near the end of that patch cycle, IIRC.

However, keep in mind that the "Olaf'd" meme came around when his R's stats were changed, and he ended up in pro play later on anyway, which is why they tried the decaying slow. Basically, he wasn't bad then either.

amazinick1213Jul 15, 20174 votes

[deleted]

HateDaddyJul 15, 201711 votes

{quoted}

Oh, look! Another shit post!

"I disagree with the post you make despite it having a sound variety of argumentative support so I'm going to make the claim that it is a post of less than satisfactory content because it hurts my feelings."

amazinick1213Jul 15, 20173 votes

Lol any post about a certain champion being broken is just a shit post

THE RlVER KlNGJul 16, 201728 votes

It's time to dumpster this champion into garbage tier until his rework.

he shouldn't be allowed to even exist

The bronze and silver lords on this board are going to white knight him and use the same old tired ass, worn out arguments

yeah real substantive and quality arguments there

HateDaddyJul 16, 20177 votes

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kx4Iznvv,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2017-07-16T01:44:10.887+0000)

yeah real substantive and quality arguments there

It has a fair amount of pathos

But the logos and ethos are there too, friend

CrabPeopleReformJul 15, 20173 votes

you might as well afk with pantheon after 25 minute

HateDaddyJul 15, 201730 votes

{quoted}

you might as well afk with pantheon after 25 minute

You're wrong. At 25-30 minutes, pantheons winrate currently sits at 54%. His winrate does not dip below 50% until after 40 minutes. Please don't make up bullshit.

https://na.op.gg/champion/pantheon/statistics/top

Fear the KaynJul 15, 20173 votes

One very simple fix would make him 100% balanced, no number changes needed.

His spear throw is now a skillshot that does NOT pass through minions.

Boom, Pantheon is balanced.

RalanrJul 15, 201712 votes

Balance? Dude that'd gut him with his mana costs and how he falls off.

LankPantsJul 16, 20173 votes

What mana costs?

RalanrJul 16, 20172 votes

If a Pantheon is constantly spamming his Q then he's going to go oom.

LankPantsJul 16, 20179 votes

At 45 mana, no, he's not. His base mana pool at level 1 is 317 and he starts with Corrupting Pot so he gets an extra 225 mana from that, meaning at just level 1 assuming 0 mana regen Pantheon can Q 12 times. The mana cost doesn't go up from there, his mana pool gets bigger though and he does have mana regen so he can actually always Q more than 12 times.

I repeat, what mana costs?

ChaosThiefJul 16, 20171 votes

His W and E, if he tries to go in on you.

HateDaddyJul 16, 20178 votes

{quoted}

His W and E, if he tries to go in on you.

There's literally no reason to ever use these until it's time to go for the kill.

SithesisLordJul 16, 201711 votes

item 2033

:^)

MalzaJul 15, 201765 votes

[{quoted}](name=Why So Fishy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kx4Iznvv,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-07-15T21:27:23.530+0000)

One very simple fix would make him 100% balanced, no number changes needed.

His spear throw is now a skillshot that does NOT pass through minions.

Boom, Pantheon is balanced.

Boom, pantheon is now the worst champion in the game*

HateDaddyJul 15, 201719 votes

{quoted}

Boom, pantheon is now the worst champion in the game*

No complaints here. Keep him gutted until reworked. And you're not allowed to mention singed. There are those of us who have a conscious and don't want to play elo terrorists.

Big LincolnJul 15, 20172 votes

snnogde is fine tho

HateDaddyJul 15, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kx4Iznvv,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2017-07-15T22:54:58.626+0000)

snnogde is fine tho

Malza is just on a singed binge rn, dw