when does a "bad game" turn into intentional feeding, when does constructive criticism turn into...

Death by Glamour·Jun 21, 2017·37 votes·2,678 views

flame

serious question.

having just watched a rakan not peel for his Xayah adc iofc asked him first why not then asked him to do so, his and the teams answer

"stop flaming and blaming him"

having just watched my 3/13 kindred invade the enemies red and then become 3/14 i ofc asked why are you even trying to do it, he says

"i'm having a bad game"

so when does a bad game turn into mindless feeding and criticism to flame?

102 Comments

Alpha SamsuniJun 21, 201726 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pink Leg Warmers,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kwhuEfAj,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-06-21T20:26:30.503+0000)

when does a "bad game" turn into intentional feeding

intentional feeding intentional

Death by GlamourJun 21, 20177 votes

A is 0/3 vs B who is 3/0

A continuously wants to fight with no chance of winning resulting in B going 6/0

is this intentional feeding? to me and quite likely a large chunk of the player base it is

AMYS GRAVEJun 21, 201716 votes

Does A have any say over if they fight or not?

Lets say your jungler comes top at 3:10 and the enemy top laner gets a double kill, double buffs, and a frozen wave. Now your top laner can't even sit in exp range, and the enemy can tower dive them without minions. Going 0/6 may not be their fault anymore.

MarshbouyJun 21, 20177 votes

If you are 0/3 in lane, down 30+ cs, and still walking into the middle of the lane to 1v1 the person, that's inting. EDIT: you guys can't fucking read.

Death by GlamourJun 21, 20175 votes

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ufmGXTLfujE/U9AWMUAl8fI/AAAAAAAAUXY/BqXTuzIjaGM/s1600/he%27s+right+you+know.jpg

AMYS GRAVEJun 21, 20176 votes

and the enemy can tower dive them without minions.

Try reading my post before posting smartass memes.

Death by GlamourJun 21, 20173 votes

You should try reading his

AMYS GRAVEJun 21, 20176 votes

I did, and it clearly wasn't in response to my post as it ignored a key clause -

and the enemy can tower dive them without minions.

JunkοJun 21, 20176 votes

No he isn't.

Death by GlamourJun 22, 20173 votes

https://image.slidesharecdn.com/scmpconferencesept11slideshare-130912004332-phpapp01/95/hr-is-the-new-marketing-the-future-of-employer-branding-5-638.jpg?cb=1378946775

AMYS GRAVEJun 22, 20173 votes

[deleted]

Death by GlamourJun 22, 20172 votes

We were clearly talking about someone who is over 1k gold behind his opponent walking up to him and starting a fight after he had already died 3 times.

No jungle involvement or anything.

I'm sorry but you keep adding 9ther variables into this bit it was made clear from the get go.

1 person is 0/3 the other is 3/0.

The first always starts the fight and ends up dying and continues to do so until he is 0/6.

I don't know how to make this clearer for you.

ChaoticPineconeJun 22, 20174 votes

Youre comparing Einsteins quote to a game with many variables.

1 person is 0/3, the other is 3/0. Would you believe that sometimes a champion who is 0/3 can actually win that? Maybe youre an Irelia who finished a trinity vs a ranged toplaner. Maybe you have both summoners up. Maybe you just finished QSS vs someone who relies on CC. Maybe you saw them use their ult earlier. Maybe each fight was actually really close, despite the score. Maybe the game is already snowballing so damn hard against you (like EVERY lane is 0/3) that you need high risk plays for even the chance of winning, since stalling would lead you to an inveitable loss.

Sometimes its tactical. I would rather go 0/3 in lane with 150 CS than 0/0 with 50 CS. Yeah, sure - a 3/0 opponent is fed. But if youre 0/0 with 50 CS at 20 minutes, that opponent is just as capable at killing you while you are in a worse position compared to the other 4 members on the enemy team.

You want to quote Einstein? How about I quote Edison: “I have not failed 10,000 times. I have not failed once. I have succeeded in proving that those 10,000 ways will not work. When I have eliminated the ways that will not work, I will find the way that will work.”

Death by GlamourJun 22, 20171 votes

The quote is rather on point. A continues to fight expecting a different outcome each time despite him dying over and over again.

ChaoticPineconeJun 22, 20174 votes

But you arent doing the same thing over and over again - you cant roll back the clock. Every time you fight, the situation changes. Maybe you land a skillshit you missed the last fight. Maybe you dodge a skillshot this time. Maybe the enemy is at 75% health when they were 100% last time. Maybe a summoner spell is up for you that was down last fight.

Death by GlamourJun 22, 20171 votes

We were clearly talking about someone who is over 1k gold behind his opponent walking up to him and starting a fight after he had already died 3 times.

copy and pasted

ChaoticPineconeJun 22, 20174 votes

Except its rarely (ahem - never) that simple. Youre ignoring all the important details and just focusing on the outcome.

AMYS GRAVEJun 21, 20174 votes

and the enemy can tower dive them without minions.

Who said anything about middle of the lane. Sitting under your tower not in exp range of the minions is overextending?

CowseedJun 22, 201713 votes

Nah... I was playing Poppy against a Trynd a few games ago. He was kinda losing to me for a bit. He was about lane width in terms of distance from me.

Being bronze people don't expect certain flash plays. Needless to say I flash stunned him and he died. Some times the other person is just better and you can't do anything. I've been on the other side of the coin myself a few times.

MarshbouyJun 22, 20175 votes

LET ME FUCKING REPEAT MYSELF. IF YOU ARE WALKING INTO THE MIDDLE OF THE LANE, WITHIN MELEE DISTANCE OF THE ENEMY, TO FIGHT THEM, WHILE BEING VERY FAR BEHIND, THAT'S FUCKING INTING

IcyPepperJun 22, 201712 votes

Or it can just be a bad player.

Yes, some people are that dumb/bad, believe it or not.

People are allowed to be bad at this game, if they're at least trying. Lo behold, just like in real life, some people lack the same common sense you have.

crippler38Jun 22, 20173 votes

Wait, you mean the reason I'm bad is because i'm BAD?!

I'm not challenjour?

Who'd have thought.

Seriously though, totally agree, people forget that sometimes your teammates AREN'T just being dicks, they're just bad at video games.

In the words of Day9, Matchmaking works.

TulareJun 21, 20178 votes

A player in that situation is suffering from tunnel vision. They believe/"know" that their team expects a contribution from them. They can't sit at the fountain, they "must" farm, they "must" win their lane, etc. Somebody needs to break them out of that wrong-minded perception.

At this point, good constructive criticism is crucial. "Why did you pick that fight?" or "Why aren't you playing safe?" don't cut it. They need reassurance and possibly even explicit suggestions. "Farm under tower as best you can. Don't expose yourself to <whatever ability> even if it means missing CS. We'll help you when we can."

Being on tilt often means doubling down on the same, game-losing behavior with a sincere but misguided resolution to "play better". It's not intentional feeding; it's losing sight of the big picture.

kasfasJun 22, 20171 votes

Yes and no. Tilt often does lead to inting, because you instigate fights, or leave yourself open to fights, that you can't win. You should know you can't win these fights and therefore should not be in a position where they can happen. If you then die to a fight like this it is entirely your fault. You did this intentionally and therefore are inting.

It's not like we all haven't done it at least once, but it is true. It's hard to recognize but people who do play much better than those who don't.

And it doesn't matter what the intention or stated intention of a person is in any given situation if the action is in contrast to that.

TulareJun 22, 20172 votes

I think that's quite a stretch. I get where you're trying to go. If you keep doing the same thing and you keep dying, that's obviously not the right thing to do. But you can't do NOTHING. That's leaving the game/afk. Even if somebody keeps doing the same suicidal thing, if the only reason they're doing it is because they have no idea what else to do, then it's not intentional feeding. I don't expect to persuade you to agree with me but as far as I'm concerned, a series of terrible decisions, made sincerely, cannot constitute intentional feeding. I refuse to institute a "should have known better" policy. In my opinion, that cannot be anything but a slippery slope for letting bad games be punishable offenses.

kasfasJun 22, 20172 votes

Depends on rank and mental ability.

The higher your rank, the more you should know and if you are at least plat you should understand that continually getting within fighting range of a fed enemy is a bad idea. I don't expect much from bronze because they are literally the bottom of the barrel. Like guys, if you are bronze, i expect you to go 0/7 and that not be inting but a plat or even some upper gold players who go 0/4 I expect are inting. You need to turn that around though, and it's hard to do but is possible.

And remember that a drunk diamond 1 might play as well as a sober gold 3. If you go 2/14 sober, you're feeding, if you go 2/14 totally plastered, I don't think you're feeding as much as you can't actually comport yourself well enough to stop dying.

Chembaron YamadaJun 22, 20171 votes

[...] And it doesn't matter what the intention or stated intention of a person is in any given situation if the action is in contrast to that.

That is completely contradicting the definition of intentional feeding. It is called intentional feeding for a reason, intention matters here of course.

Intentional feeding is just if you go fight the enemy laner with the mindset "I will give this guy a kill to see my team crying". If your mindset is "After my last purchase, I am confident that I can beat him this time", then it is not intentional feeding.

kasfasJun 22, 20171 votes

Well you could say the fire nation wasn't intentionally evil, because they were trying to spread the greatness of their empire to the rest of the world, but their actions do not reflect this intention with the genocide of the air nomads and the massacre of many innocents.

I assume you know avatar, but if you don't you should watch it. A similar argument could be made about the nazis if you choose not to watch.

Yaśuo MainJun 22, 20171 votes

P sure the fire nation just wanted to destroy the others and not "spread greatness".

kasfasJun 23, 20171 votes

From the wiki "Sozin commented that the Fire Nation was going through a period of great prosperity and wealth and told Roku that together, the two of them could spread it throughout the world by expanding the empire, to make a 'brighter future' possible."

Yaśuo MainJun 23, 20171 votes

But then that's implying a brighter future for THEMSELVES, by expanding the empire in a malicious way.

kasfasJun 23, 20171 votes

the point is the intention is unimportant if the method of reaching it is faulty.

Yaśuo MainJun 23, 20171 votes

That actually makes little to no sense, I don't know what to say other than that. You are basically saying that if a Bronze is bad but wants to reach Silver, and they keep trying to climb solo (and they fail a lot), climbing to Silver is now unimportant? You don't even explain why, you just pulled up a fucking Avatar example, which seemed to be your entire argument. Another way that your point is faulty is if that is the ONLY method available, AND it's faulty. You had a dumb reference that did not close the difference between "I will feed this guy a kill" and "the last item I just bought might win me a fight".

The Fire Nation's method wasn't even faulty either, they just had bad luck with the last airbender pulling a John Cena and stopping them.

kasfasJun 23, 20171 votes

Have you ever heard the phrase "the ends do not justify the means" or the phrase "insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results"?

Doing the same stupid thing over and over doesn't win you the game, and you should know this. If you keep trying to do that same thing that you KNOW doesn't my work, it doesn't MATTER what you mean to do, how you arrive there doesn't work.

If you can't get that I don't know what I can tell you.

MarshbouyJun 21, 20173 votes

that's the problem though. A player will rarely say "i am going to int". They die 20 times but as long as they CS, say positive things in chat, and get a tiny handful of assists they can claim that they were just having a bad game.

rtbf221651412Jun 21, 20176 votes

Dude, everyone throws the word flame around as much as the word troll. Just because they use it doesn't mean they know what it means.

Death by GlamourJun 21, 20175 votes

difference is the reports mount up when you ask them just some simple questions

why did you invade when you are 3/13?

why arent you building some mr against a heavy AP team

why don't you have lord dominics vs a 6K HP BLOODY CHO'GATH (yeh im still tilted by that game)

CatastrophicJun 21, 20173 votes

I think asking "why did you invade" instead of "I don't think you should invade" makes it sound a bit more like flame

Dryden814Jun 22, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=James Borne,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kwhuEfAj,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-06-21T23:26:57.841+0000)

I think asking "why did you invade" instead of "I don't think you should invade" makes it sound a bit more like flame

But that's ridiclous,this isn't a game made for 5 year olds,he shouldn't have to go out of his way to treat the people he is playing with like toddlers whom somehow managed to get ahold of a computer.

CatastrophicJun 22, 20173 votes

Idk, "Why did you invade" sounds like you're asking "Are you so dumb that you did that without realizing what a horrible idea it was?" But "I don't think you should invade" sounds like "I see what you were going for there, but I don't think it's gonna work out" Again, I don't know, it's just what it seems like to me.

XonraJun 22, 20173 votes

See this is why I say it feels more like people projecting negativity. The question "Why did you invade" I can at least respond to with an answer. The "Don't invade" sounds more like a one-sided conversation and there is no way to give a proper response or explain yourself without looking like the bad one in the conversation instantly.

I've seen people in chat ask the "why did you do x?!" even annoyed, the second responds with the actual reason, then suddenly these guys are helping each other do said thing the first was attempting because they explained. I've never seen "Don't invade" turn into positive, because it is a demand or an instruction, and that isn't helpful to anyone but the person saying it.

ShaolinToiletJun 22, 20172 votes

The problem with asking people questions is they will respond then you will respond and then you will be arguing instead of playing

Hyrum GraffJun 22, 20172 votes

It's not about going out of your way to be nice to people. It's about the purpose.

If you point out that someone made a mistake and nothing else, the only purpose was for you to blow off steam.

If you phrase it as "You shouldn't do that again.", the purpose is to avoid doing it again, so you can win the game.

They're completely different.

Leaf on BushJun 21, 20176 votes

I don't think it's that hard to differentiate between constructive criticism and flame, simply because they are not mutually exclusive. You can give great advice and insult at the same time.

The diffrence between a bad game and inting is much harder to point out, because you have to prove the intention. There are obvious cases of inting but also very tricky ones. To reliably prove the intention you would have to look into the players head, but you can't do that so you have to consider the experience, the emotional stability and the skill of the player and compare that to his actions.

And even then I am not sure whether a very tilted and enraged player who dies a lot can be considered an intentional feeder. How aware is he of his own action? Does he fully realize that he ruins the game or is he too overcome by anger?

Jo0oJun 21, 20175 votes

Most criticism in League is pointless. Rarely will you be able to enact some behavioral change in time to make the player perform well.

There are exceptions, of course, but only if you phrase your criticism in such a way that your teammates won't feel defensive. And if you can't do that... then maybe you ARE flaming. Because if you're criticizing for the sake of making yourself feel superior, then that's negative and pointless (I hesitate to call it literally "flaming", but it's in the same ballpark).

Example of productive criticism that I've personally said in games: "Hey, Ori. I gotta stay in lane, I can't help you effectively if you invade. You're gonna get caught and killed if you keep doing that" "Hey Nasus, your Q stacks damage infinitely if you last-hit with it. That's how you'll be strong late-game."

Both players were acting like idiots, but I'm not going to accomplish anything by calling them idiots. The Nasus had no idea how his kit worked, but I informed him and he at least got several hundred stacks by the end of the game. The Ori had died in a dumb spot twice, but stopped doing it after I respectfully pointed out her error.

Example of unproductive criticism that has been pointlessly said to me: "Land a fucking hook" "Fucking boosted TP dude"

Uh, what are you going to accomplish with this? I fucking realize that landing hooks is better than not landing hooks, you aren't going to magically cause me to be better by telling me to land them. And I made a TP play as best as I could, what's done is done.

SasogwaJun 21, 20173 votes

Tbh there's literally no point in asking why someone didn't do his job well. If however you tell him that he should focus more on doing something else, then it's constructive. Most of the guys that did mistakes know they did mistakes, there is no point in reminding them except if you want them to tilt more. Obviously, it does not mean it's hardcore flame, I do understand that.

chipndip1Jun 21, 20173 votes

Lemme see if I can help here:

It depends largely on context. If someone's getting butt-blasted, they're getting butt-blasted. However, if someone's getting butt-blasted because they're shoving too hard top lane, and the squad specifically states to not do so, and they make the conscious decision to do so, by Riot's own words that's reportable for griefing your team via not working with them. They're intentionally playing in a sub-optimal way, forcing their team to work even harder to compensate. There's no strategic value to them randomly shoving without minding enemy or ally position, and it was made known to them, so if they disregard it after the fact, it's inting.

With this said, something like "DODGE THE HOOK" doesn't mean they'll magically never get hooked again, but something like "Stop going bot lane and group so we can protect you and take mid" going unheeded for minutes on end...that's one for the report logs.

kasfasJun 22, 20173 votes

Inting is highly dependant on rank. Inting can mean anything from 0/14/2 to 3/5/1. Players in higher ranks would coincided an 0/2/0 top laner as inting where as most of us just concuder it a bad game.

The better you get, the less risks you take and the less mistakes you make leading to fewer deaths. That is he reason for the change with rank. So I'm pretty sure that kindred was inting, probably in a bad state and should t be playing the game. I've been on his side before, it's pretty depressing.

Flaming and criticism are an entirely different area. Many people are over sensitive about anything they don't want to hear, and asking a question as to why they would or wouldn't do something may trigger them. Be careful though as sometimes that person is raging internally and doesn't need you pointing out their mistakes. OFC if they do something stupid once and not again they probably know that they did something wrong but after a second time is when you start to question them.

To be quite honest as long as you don't say someone is an idiot or should go act upon life threatening things: kys, get aids, get cancer, etc. , it shouldn't actually be flaming. Some people take criticism as a personal attack and you can't do anything about it but laugh at them (to yourself btw, don't trigger them more) and move on.

Pater GascoigneJun 22, 20172 votes

Eh, while I agree that many people get overdefensive if you ask simple questions like "Can you buy X item" or "please ping misses earlier", many people don't realize that some 'advice' is pointless and only serves to add negativity to the game, like the Katarina telling you to "land some skillshots already" or the adc to "dont play Blitz if you cant land hooks". These comments arent really flaming, but they serve no point. The other person wont magically have a better hitrate just because you criticized him.

At the end of the day you have to remember that you are a team of 5 different human beings (unless you play CoopvsAI amirite) with 5 different minds evaluating a situation. I've been playing this game for 7 years with the 2-3 same people I did when I started league. We pretty much always have the same idea when approaching situations just because we played so much together. But there are still situation when we react different and that leads to a death or two. Now imagine this with random people, just because someone made a seemingly bad play doesn't mean it was his itention to do a bad play.

not brnaJun 22, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pink Leg Warmers,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kwhuEfAj,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-06-21T20:26:30.503+0000)

flame

serious question.

having just watched a rakan not peel for his Xayah adc iofc asked him first why not then asked him to do so, his and the teams answer

"stop flaming and blaming him"

having just watched my 3/13 kindred invade the enemies red and then become 3/14 i ofc asked why are you even trying to do it, he says

"i'm having a bad game"

so when does a bad game turn into mindless feeding and criticism to flame?

For me, the difference is whether or not the player is actually doing anything that would show he's dying on purpose.

For example:

Running into the enemy's towers, dying to them over and over (running it down mid).
Running into the enemies and dying without trying to fight them.
Spamming attempts at killing enemies with no regards to the surroundings or past results (1v1'ing the enemy Jungler, dying, then charging at them again into a 1v3 to attempt fighting the enemy Jungler once more).

There are definite intentions in all of these actions, which shows they aren't trying to win the game anymore. Anything outside of this, is likely just a difference in skill, getting outplayed, lag, or the enemy being too far ahead in items and gold to deal with reasonably.