A few things taken from Mages that have been given to AD champions in the past few years.

The Ecdysiast··32 votes·1,948 views

Will of the Ancients was removed because, supposedly, healing from abilities was overpowered and difficult to balance. (read: "we didn't want to put in the effort to balance it for Swain and Vladimir") Enter item 3812. Almost exactly the same item. 80 AP -> AD (though 80 AD is more for most champions than 80 AP is, due to differences in scaling), 10% CDR, and the same amount of healing. But also has the bonus effects of working on Auto attacks and converting 30% of all damage taken to a bleed to give you time to heal. The cost is 1300 more, but it's also a better item in every way, including buildpath.


Deathfire Grasp was too strong because end-game builds could have almost 200 more AP than is reasonably possible now, and adding 20% damage on top of that was outrageous since supports couldn't actually protect anyone.

Now we have Press the Attack, which has about the same effect, but causes them to take extra damage from ALL sources, not just magic, and caters to ADCs. And now, unlike before, Supports all have the option to shield and heal their allies. So Deathfire could be brought back, especially with this reduction in AP available, without much fuss.


And finally, there's the simple reduction of AP available in the game. The items that have been nerfed/removed, when compared to those added/buffed, end up with around 200 AP missing from the game, accounting for the amount lost on Rabadons.

Meanwhile, the only AD items removed from the game were SotO (removed for similar reasons to Leviathan), Zephyr (because it didn't fit well into most builds, and now the increased AS on Triforce suits the three champions that built it more), Atma's (only ever worked on Garen), and Sword of the Divine (which was only AS, and has been replaced with the far stronger Lethal Tempo rune). Critical hit chance changed from something you might have 60% with an end game build to easily having 80% with all effective items. AD items have been buffed or unchanged, except for small decreases of maybe 10 AD here and there to account for larger buffs to similar items. New AD items have been added for fighters, ADCs, and casters-- the latter of which are often abused by ADCs.


And with that 200 reduction in AP, we've also gotten an over 1000 increase in effective health in the form of Redemption, Locket, and other +%Healing and shielding passives on items that scale into the late game. So even a full-build mage can't kill the enemy ADC if the support isn't also CC'd.

92 Comments

Eedat19 votes

And finally, there's the simple reduction of AP available in the game. The items that have been nerfed/removed, when compared to those added/buffed, end up with around 200 AP missing from the game, accounting for the amount lost on Rabadons.

Lol K hand back all that CDR then

Meanwhile, not a single AD item has been removed from the game

Sword of the Occult, Atma's impaler, Sword of the Divines, The Brutalizer, Zephyr. Not gonna dig into super old stuff.

AD items have been increased or unchanged.

Lol? Some of them have been buffed, some have been nerfed

Critical hit chance changed from something you might have 60% with an end game build to easily having 50% with just two items.

What are you even talking about? You still get just as much crit from 2 items as you did back then.

And with that 200 reduction in AP, we've also gotten an over 1000 increase in effective health in the form of Redemption, Locket, and other +%Healing and shielding passives.

How is this a problem specifically for mages again?

Salt/10

The Ecdysiast13 votes

First point: You'd have a point if the increase in CDR was only for mages, but it wasn't. Every single class can hit 40% easily, and for a long time now. Triforce and Cleaver both give 20%. Essence Reaver gives 30% with just one additional Zeal.

Second: I fixed it. But Atma's wasn't for AD champions, it was for the yet-to-be-classified Juggernauts.

Third: There have been no nerfs to AD items. Only one revision to Cleaver so ADCs would stop abusing it, armor shred reductions to compensate for the all-around tank item nerfs (which when you do the math equates to the exact same amount of armor, so they were balances, not nerfs), and initial changes to account for newly released items.

Fourth: You're just plain wrong on that one. Not sure what you consider "back then", but I'm talking about before the marksmen update, when Runaan's didn't give any crit, Reaver didn't exist, RFC didn't exist, and Shiv gave 10% less crit.

Fifth: If you don't understand how a reduction in AP and a transfer of all their strong items into AD items is a problem for mages, I don't know what else to say to you to explain it.

Eedat12 votes

You'd have a point if the increase in CDR was only for mages, but it wasn't. Every single class can hit 40% easily, and for a long time now. Triforce and Cleaver both give 20%. Essence Reaver gives 30% with just one additional Zeal.

Except ADCs? inb4 "hurr durr ER" that thing is trash and you only build it because you're Sivir and you mana costs got gutted

But Atma's wasn't for AD champions, it was for the yet-to-be-classified Juggernauts.

UNIQUE: You gain attack damage equal to 1.5% of your maximum health.

Not for AD champs I guess lel.

There have been no nerfs to AD items.

Straight up horse shit. This alone proves how much this is just a salty shitpost. BC nerfed. IE nerfed (used to give 80 AD and 25% crit chance). BT nerfed. Duskblade nerfed. Youmuu's nerfed. EoN nerfed. Triforce nerfed. Mercurial nerfed.

I'm not going to list all of them. So much shit has been nerfed that the fact you are actually trying to claim "no nerfs to AD items" is absolutely fucking insane

You're just plain wrong on that one. Not sure what you consider "back then", but I'm talking about before the marksmen update, when Runaan's didn't give any crit,

Nobody built Runaans back then and they removed crit chance from IE and put it on zeal items so ADCs didnt spike as hard after just an IE. HENCE "You still get just as much crit from 2 items as you did back then". Sorry buddy, you're the one who is wrong. Do your homework next time?

100% confirmed salty shitpost/10

The Ecdysiast8 votes

First: Not except ADCs. You can't just discount an item because you don't know why it's good. Then there's the simple fact than any ADCs who benefit more from CDR than crit just build Lethality items and hit 30% anyway.

Second: Yes. As I said, it was for juggernauts. 1.5% of of an ADC's HP is between 10 and 25 AD. It was never a good option for anyone but juggs. Its removal had no effect on the majority of champions, and the champions who did build it were buffed around the same time.

Third and Fourth: Infinity Edge lost FIVE crit chance, while Runaan's gained 30% and Shiv gained 10%. If you somehow think 45 is the same as 50, I can't help you. That said, 35+20+25 = a whopping total of 80%, 90% if you add on the old Youmuu's. Now the total crit available is 140% even with Youmuu's removal. Then recently, all crit items had their costs reduced.

Do your homework next time.

Eedat8 votes

Not except ADCs. You can't just discount an item because you don't know why it's good.

You cant just credit an item thats bad?

Yes. As I said, it was for juggernauts. 1.5% of of an ADC's HP is between 10 and 25 AD.

Juggies are no longer "AD champions"? Wow thats really weird dude. You should also do some basic math because Atma's gave 45 AD at only 3k health. But hey, "10 AD" hahahahahaha

Infinity Edge lost FIVE crit chance, while Runaan's gained 30% and Shiv gained 10%.

NOBODY. BUILT. RUNAANS. Runaans gave 70% AS and was used for on hit builds. Legit the only champions in the entire game that built it were Kog and Varus and even they didnt build it 90% of the time. Infinity Edge also lost 10 AD. But hey! Losing crit and flat AD means "its never been nerfed" xD No AD item has never been nerfed even though almost all of them have been xD

You have to be trolling at this point. I honestly can't accept the fact that you would try to say "no AD item has ever been nerfed" seriously. There just no way. I refuse to accept it

The Ecdysiast4 votes

You're being a complete hypocrite at this point. You want to include Atma's and Zephyr as AD items that were removed, but discount ER because you don't like it.

Basic math, eh? So, which ADCs got 3000 health again?

People did not build runaan's because it was bad. Then it was buffed by a lot. That actually adds to the argument against adcs, since they had an item buffed so hard.

And yes, I told you already, balance changes in reaction to other buffs are not nerfs. You're trying to say that AD items have been nerfed when they've only been changed in reaction to buffs to each other. IE lost damage, but also cost while Bork gained more.

But the one example you have, which is the only example of an AD item being nerfed instead of rearranged or changed in reaction to a newly released item, does not even remotely equate to the nerfs to all AP items.

You've gotta be trolling at this point, just fanboying over right-click champs.

Eedat9 votes

Literally YOUR TITLE says "AD champions".

#Your own title.

Are you under the impression that ADC means Attack Damage Champion or something?

The Ecdysiast2 votes

Well, you can say what you want. The post is getting upvoted regardless of whether or not you're going to rant about semantics.

Atmas was not an AD item, it had an HP scaling AD passive. It granted no AD whatsoever from its base stats. Wanna keep talking semantics?

Eedat1 votes

Wow! 12 upvotes! Whew man you made it big! Yur thread is so trash that you cant even circlejerk the "MAGES ARE SO WEAK QQQQQQQQQQQQQ" correctly xD

There have been no nerfs to AD items.

hue hue hue HAHAHAHAHAHA

Subject 57 votes

{quoted}

Except ADCs? inb4 "hurr durr ER" that thing is trash and you only build it because you're Sivir and you mana costs got gutted

Not for AD champs I guess lel.

Straight up horse shit. This alone proves how much this is just a salty shitpost. BC nerfed. IE nerfed (used to give 80 AD and 25% crit chance). BT nerfed. Duskblade nerfed. Youmuu's nerfed. EoN nerfed. Triforce nerfed. Mercurial nerfed.

I'm not going to list all of them. So much shit has been nerfed that the fact you are actually trying to claim "no nerfs to AD items" is absolutely fucking insane

Nobody built Runaans back then and they removed crit chance from IE and put it on zeal items so ADCs didnt spike as hard after just an IE. HENCE "You still get just as much crit from 2 items as you did back then". Sorry buddy, you're the one who is wrong. Do your homework next time?

100% confirmed salty shitpost/10

AD Items are outright better than AP items, to start with.

I don't see how anything that you're saying in response to the post is related to salt though, OP is complaining about how shit AP has it compared to AD - though I wouldn't say that the current lethality items are nerfed compared to prior states; considering how strong and ridiculous lethality is currently in the game. (Youmuus)

Yeah, Duskblade is nerfed but it still is better than pretty much every AP item when put up against it's counter part.

item 3156 Can now stack with the new runes, still better than item 3191 item 3078 Offers a bundle of stats, with additional perks that enable follow up and assistance in disengage VS item 3100 Enables singular stats, doesn't offer follow up and doesn't allow for disengage

item 3153 Can counter tanks, AP variant needs to use abilities to proc this ability and it's less effective item 3151

item 3072 item 3812 item 3153 item 3139 item 3156 item 3074 VS item 3146 Guess which group has more diversity?

There's so much to talk about in the disadvantages of AD / AP / that I'd go as far to say that you're salty because of the attitude you hold towards somebody on an opposing stand point.

What do I know though - clearly the guy who plays ARAM on his alternative account, who won't even bother posting on his main account for us to take a look at his statistics - knows better. Maybe he doesn't even have a main account and just straight up plays Aram for 90% of his games.

-Shrugs-

By the looks of the games, I'd say you do have a main account.

Penns12 votes

he still kinda rite tho lul

The Ecdysiast4 votes

He's just gonna downvote you because he's an ADC fanboy who doesn't want his right-click champs returned to a balanced state.

Eedat8 votes

ADC is literally my least played role xD

Dark Nephthys12 votes

Also you can count CDR in there as well. Especially during the mid season mage changes from Season 6, AP items lost** a lot** of AP but gained CDR to make up for it, with Riots plan of Mages dealing a little less damage but doing it way more often. Now all classes can easily achieve 40% CDR in any game, with even ADCs actually having the easiest to reach it without sacrificing any damage at all (or without really changing much in their build).

Hell ADCs just need to get item 3508 in their build and that alone will give 30% CDR provided they were gonna build item 3031 plus any item 3086 item anyways and can get that last 10% from the rune in Sorcery or item 3158. Yes I know that mages can get that rune + item 3165 and have 30% CDR from that as well but AD items never lost any AD or other stats to make up for that extra CDR...but item 3157 lost 50 AP, item 3174 being basically forced into support item and all that while item 3116 item 3285 lost AP.

The Ecdysiast10 votes

Yeah, I think the massive increase in CDR in the game for everyone was a bad call. 'Cause they only really nerfed AP items as compensation.

Now every single class has access to 20% cdr as a first item (except tanks and supports) Triforce, Morello, Cleaver,

Dark Nephthys4 votes

Yea, while I personally kind of like everyone having high CDR, the fact that only mages lost stats on their items to obtain it is what bothers me. That and the fact that AD has about as many items that give CDR and AD, sure not all of them can be used on all sets of AD champions but the same is said for AP champions CDR items. AD champions even have access to 2 items that give 20% CDR (Trinity/Cleaver) and ER which can potentially give 30%, while mages only have 1 which is obv morello's that gives 20% CDR (since Athenes is 10% now) and Morello can feel like a terrible item to mages who don't have mana.

Basic run down of AD/CDR items and AP/CDR items.

AP/CDR: item 3504 item 3174 item 3102 item 3152 item 3100 item 3165 item 3115 item 3157

AD/CDR: item 3812 item 3147 item 1400 item 3508 item 3156 item 3071 item 3078 item 3142

Edit: Forgot Nashor's tooth is another AP item that gives 20% CDR, to lazy to edit and change around the text up there, but NT still has a very small amount of champions that can reliably use it effectively though.

The Ecdysiast3 votes

You're right.

And in actuality, AD champs have more options if you take out Nashor', Athene's, and Ardent. Since two of them are support items and as you said Nashor's is very limited based on who can actually buy it effectively.

AirKingNeo1 votes

ADCs usually don't build Trinity, Morello, or Cleaver.

Dream High2 votes

Adc's like Mf and Lucian were abusing cleaver thats why it got nerfed.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

It didn't get nerfed. It got changed. The cost of the HP increase was equal to the AD removed.

Troll for Trump2 votes

Triforce is bought on Ez, Nasus, Irelia, Hecarim, Camille, Corki, GP, Fiora, Jax, Skarner, and Udyr; it's not really a class item.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Tanks can buy Iceborn Gauntlet or Frozen Heart as a first item.

CDR is a significantly more powerful stat on supports than on any other class because supports have stupidly powerful CC.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

If they could, they would. That's why you only see a first-buy Gauntlet on Nasus, who has juggernaut base AD, a built-in health steroid and built-in lifesteal that applies damage dealt with his minion-scaling on-hit.

Tanks who don't have those benefits (all of them), can't afford to get nothing but armor from their first item, as nearly every other opponent they face can buy armor penetration/shred with zero drawbacks because their abilities don't cost enough for it to matter that BC doesn't give mana.

Tanks' intended first buy item is Sunfire, and I've already made a thread going over exactly the difference in cost and effectiveness of that vs. a black cleaver. Sunfire is at least 20% less gold efficient, even though its intended champions can't farm well, and at most 60% if you factor in passives.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

I've seen Sion rush Iceborn as well. Depends on the matchup and how well you're doing against a particular opponent.

Armor PEN does nothing against Iceborn. No one builds Last Whisper early, but if your opponent is rushing a Serrated Dirk then you definitely want an Iceborn as your first item because you completely negate the lethality and still get extra protection.

The Black Cleaver is different, certainly. But then again, most tanks shouldn't even be laning anyway, and the large majority of them don't. People just forget that because they constantly think of junglers and supports being DPS or healing roles rather than tanks. There are a lot of tanks in both roles. Now, obviously you have to rush other items in these roles (item 1409 /item 2303 ) but Iceborn or Frozen Heart as your second item isn't too bad.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Now hold on. You're just wrong that tanks "shouldn't be laning."

Tanks aren't laning because their first-buy item got drastically nerfed. So the only tanks played are in the jungle, or outliers who have aspects unrelated to items that make them able to fight in lane.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Tanks shouldn't be laning because their itemization should entirely be balanced around their access to 20% bonus health item 1401 .

If a tank can find success without Cinderhulk, he's likely going to be too tanky with it (which is fine for supports, because supports generally do not have the option of jungling anyway so they will never have it). If a tank is balanced with Cinderhulk, he's likely too weak without it, ergo he shouldn't be in top lane.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Well, that's an issue right there. The REST of their items should definitely not be balanced around Cinderhulk, and so top lane tanks suffer because jungle tanks are abusing that item.

You're not really bringing up a point in favor of tanks not laning so much as you'e pointing out that Cinderhulk's 20% bonus HP passive is broken.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

But as long as the broken passive is in the game, the rest of the items need to have their health balanced around it. That's why the tank update lowered the health of all items and buffed the bonus HP passive, tanks didn't lose any health as long as they jungled while everyone else lost health.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

But they simply need to lower that passive. An entire class of champions shouldn't have their items completely hindered because of that. And I'm all for lowering the HP buff of cinderhulk. The few tank junglers who are strong wouldn't even be impacted by it, and can be compensated if they are.

This is just like AP items-- to bring his back to the original discussion-- being unable to be powerful because one of the three highest AP items, at 100 AP, is their core item full of every stat they could want.

We're locked out of getting an AP Grievous Wounds item because Morello has it, and Athene's got reduced from a first buy option to a rare buy support option.

Slythion5 votes

Zephyr and Sword of the Occult are the only two ad items I can think to have been removed since I've started playing tbh

The Ecdysiast4 votes

Sword of the Divine as well, though it was AS only, not AD.

But they were just bad items. They didn't fit well into most builds.

Slythion5 votes

{quoted}

Sword of the Divine as well, though it was AS only, not AD.

But they were just bad items. They didn't fit well into most builds.

I miss Zephyr tbh, I feel like it could fit in several champion's builds in todays league. It's w/e though

Thryale2 votes

zephyr was a cool concept that just fell flat due to crit being too valuable on adc's

I did enjoy building it on teemo for those 40+ min games when I used to sell my boots for a 6th item XD

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

There was also atma's impaler, more of a bruiser item as it gave flat armor and damage based on max health, strange it had critical chance though. I too miss zephyr, it was the only alternative to mercury treads too.

redniwediS4 votes

Sword of the Occult ring any bells? What about Sword of the Divine?

The Ecdysiast2 votes

Man, Sword of the Divine would've been so fun on the new Mordekaiser.

However, Divine has been completely replaced with a new rune that not only gives you up to 80% AS, but also allows you to ignore the cap.

Occult, you've got me there. But it was removed as prep for the marksmen update.

Updated the post.

Eedat5 votes

No it hasnt? Do you know what Sword of the Divines did?

The Ecdysiast4 votes

Um, yes it has? You can already easily get 100% crit nowadays thanks to the marksmen update. But Lethal Tempo allows you to break the attack speed cap for 6 seconds.

It's kind of obvious how 6 seconds of 3.5 attack speed with even 70% crit is better than only 3 attacks at 100%. Especially since all armor has been nerfed.

Eedat4 votes

Buying 4 items for 100% crit chance is NOT the same as SoD. You're joking right? You cant actually be serious

The Ecdysiast3 votes

You really don't understand how breaking the attack speed cap is stronger than SoD? Add on the fact SoD gave you literally nothing when it was on cooldown, and it's leagues below Lethal Tempo in raw power.

You've got a nostalgic hard-on for the item, I get that. But don't let it blind you to the facts.

Eedat4 votes

Yeah man totally the same thing. You do realize you need 4 AS items for Lethal Tempo to crack the attack speed cap right? Except those with AS in their kits. And 4 crit items to hit 100% crit right? But hey! Same thing as SoD xD

The Ecdysiast1 votes

You're trying to lie to fool people reading your comments. SoD was 100% crit on only 3 attacks, and in a state of the game where that made no difference. You can't just shove it into the current game state and talk about how good it would've been. Sated would've been great nowadays.

You're just lying about people ever building SoD.

Eedat1 votes

LOL item 3072 SoD Draven with Annie supp. Prepare your anus

The Ecdysiast1 votes

For the cost of SoD, you can have 40 AD and 20% crit all of the time.

For SoD, you can have 3 double power attacks, with the AS being irrelevant because it only applies to those three attacks, then absolutely nothing for a full minute.

Please provide some proof that that was ever the meta in high level play.

AirKingNeo2 votes

How is a 1 item powerspike equal to a 4 item spike?

Sorry, I think there's over a 5000 gold difference.

k wìx4 votes

**For what its worth, I think the new keystones/runes give mages more late-game carry potential then was EVER offered before. **

The Ecdysiast6 votes

I kinda disagree. 20% extra damage on a target with 200 more AP available and spellvamp was quite strong.

The new runes might have given mages more late-game potential if it weren't for the 1000 extra health provided by the new Support items.

AirKingNeo3 votes

Except Death's Dance isn't unbalanced as fuck from it's healing. Plus it isn't stolen; Stolen items are things like Rageblade (being used by another class).

Press the Attack is not comparable to DFG, and bruisers use PtA.

And finally, there's the simple reduction of AP available in the game.

Aside from omitting gains in CDR, HP, and passives, you're really bullshitting people because this isn't anything taken from AP and given to AD at all.

You should join the Olympics with that level of mental gymnastics.

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