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If these AP changes go live...

SnugglePuggle94··75 votes·3,452 views

Good bye League. I will continue to play and see if things change around, but if the current changes are not reverted and come to live, I'm officially leaving. None of us AP mains like these changes, in fact like me I hate them, besides a few like the support mains who are getting a newly vamped Athene's (which why is it being turned into a support item anyway?).

  • Spell vamp is being removed from the game.
  • Morello's and other items getting their AP nerfed, while having CDR and an awful "mana" component slapped on as compensation.
  • Zhonya's is being terribly nerfed (100>70 AP, 90 sec CD to 120). While Riot slaps on 10%CDR and decreases the price as their reasoning behind the nerfs. This is the worst offender right here. We AP mains needed a nice armor item with stats to be able to stand up against Zed and the other AD pricks that you, Riot, terribly buffed this season. Instead, we get an awful nerfed item with CDR and crappy mana items. Let's have some cheers for now getting our butts kicked even more!

-From a summoner, Vistha Kai: "Rioter 1: Are ADs still a problem? Rioter 2: Yes. Rioter 1: So what do we do about it? Rioter 3: Let's nerf Zhonya. All Rioters in the room: GENIUS! ...I guess I'll buy fucking Rylai's instead. "

Sure speaks about how Riot does things around here.

  • "New" AP items, specifically that switch Health/Mana around, or this new Belt item, which seems way too OP. I foresee many immobile mages using this. Watch out kids, you might just have a Soraka jumping at you and shooting bolts that deal a ton of damage.

Riot, you need to listen to us. Sure you listened when we asked for more mana/regen and CDR, but not like this. We ask for more armor items, and we get nothing, while AD itemization gets about everything they want- armor pen, attack damage, strong as f*ck shields, attack speed, crit, etc.

It seems like you favor AD over us, especially considering how crappy this itemization is compared to the AD one.

Riot needs to see that they have ruined the game and it will only continue to go down into a darker path if they don't realize their mistakes.

So if this goes live, I'm leaving. I thought when we had our items nerfed during the AD itemization it was awful, but if this continues and goes live, then it's the last straw for me.

69 Comments

Vanjie27 votes

Cant they not comprehend that they are nerfing this class even more with these item update? Almost all of us have said it, compared to AD, ADC and Tanks . . . AP champions have almost NO ITEM OPTIONS TO CHOOSE FROM. I did not see anything about mobility or defensive options. Heck, they increased the cooldown on Zhonya and lowered the AP on it. I am making another thread about this and suggesting more things. I am CONTINUING to lose faith in Riot's ability to manage this game.

SnugglePuggle945 votes

Exactly. I've been losing faith ever since the marksmen update.

Keevalroy3 votes

I started losing faith during the season 4 preseason. I had nothing left after the halfway point of season 5, and since then I've learned not to expect anything but constant disappointment. It's better this way so the patches don't hurt as bad.

t0ad51 votes

{quoted}

Exactly. I've been losing faith ever since the marksmen update.

I've not liked anything since they screwed up Mordekaiser.

Stacona1 votes

And gave it CDR and greatly reduced its gold cost, but hey let's not actually fully read things or think for that matter.

The only thing that should be upset about is Grail, it should be the super mana regen item for mages, period.

Vanjie1 votes

At the expense of damage. They could have created more items that have CDR. The problem is AP champions have almost no options.

Çhåryzård19 votes

The purpose of Zhonyas was primarily to defend you against AD burst. Now if Zed can ult you multiple times while the cooldown is still not done, it has lost the ability to do its job.

They literally just slapped a 10% CDR onto it, said "we want it to be more about utility", then nerfed a large chunk of it. Yea, it was expensive, but it did its job.

Not only that, but they messed up some other items aswell. Look at Rod. They nerfed its damage, the amount of mana it gives you, and the amount of mana per stack.

Morellonomicon does not gie you any mana regen anymore. Instead it gives flat mana. This was one of my first go to items for some damage and the mana regen but looks like I won't be regenerating mana with it anymore.

Athene's ability power went from 60 to 40, its mana regen from 100% to 75%, and you no longer get mana from kills and assists. Instead we have this

"Gain 15% of premitigation damage dealt to champions as Blood charges, up to 100 to 270 (based on level). Healing or shielding another ally consumes Blood Charges to heal that ally."

I am hoping they don't go through with these...ugh..

Wimbledofy9 votes

yeah and the funny thing about why they changed rod was they apparently wanted to make is competitive with the new item they added... "with this new item, rod wouldn't seem that good, so we nerfed it so it can compete with the other item" is basically what they said.

Stacona2 votes

Hourglass is also the most overpowered item in the game right now

Çhåryzård4 votes

{quoted}

Hourglass is also the most overpowered item in the game right now

since when?

It's damage used to be 120 ap. It got nerfed to 100. Now it's going down to 70?

Meanwhile the ad items haven't been being nerfed

Mhihnj2 votes

The purpose of Zhonyas was primarily to defend you against AD burst. Now if Zed can ult you multiple times while the cooldown is still not done, it has lost the ability to do its job.

Riot should probably nerf Zed, but knowing riot, i can already imagine what will happen.

Çhåryzård1 votes

{quoted}

Riot should probably nerf Zed, but knowing riot, i can already imagine what will happen.

Didn't they buff his early game damage a while ago too? I remember a friend mentioning it before it was applied

1000angrybees16 votes

Im literally going to just play support if anything. But then again, Frost Queen's Claim will be nerfed because all mid laners will take it- YET AGAIN- for the higher regen and active. This update is just bad direction.

1000angrybees2 votes

Aaaaaand they nerfed Frost Queen's in the planned update. Wow, who saw that coming, not me

Saianna13 votes

We ask for more armor items, and we get nothing, while AD itemization gets about everything they want- armor pen, attack damage, strong as f*ck shields, attack speed, crit, etc.

I am heavily surprised you forgot about lifesteal.

Everything has lifesteal bullshit nowadays.

Spellvamp? "vlad was abusing so we are removing spellvamp" and then "we'll rework vlad so he won't be using it anymore"

Making logic into whore since 2011 Rito~

SnugglePuggle943 votes

{quoted}

I am heavily surprised you forgot about lifesteal.

Everything has lifesteal bullshit nowadays.

Spellvamp? "vlad was abusing so we are removing spellvamp" and then "we'll rework vlad so he won't be using it anymore"

Making logic into whore since 2011 Rito~

Note the "etc" that I typed, which includes lifesteal and whatever other stat they heavily buffed for the ADs.

MisterHealYoGirl2 votes

The removal of spellvamp is actually one of the few parts I like about these changes. Nobody really used spellvamp except Vladimir and in rare cases Swain and Mordekaiser. Vladimir, on the other hand, was so dependent on spellvamp that he had to be balanced completely around it.

Will of the ancients was an item that only one champion reliably bought, but that was so good on that champion that he had to be nerfed to be god-awful without it. If Vladimir can be reworked in a way that means he doesn't need to buy spellvamp anymore, I'm all for it, and if he's doesn't need it, there's really no need for the stat at all.

Saianna4 votes

Nobody really used spellvamp except Vladimir and in rare cases Swain and Mordekaiser.

Jesus Christ.. For the love of god and everything that's innocent and Holy.

  1. Spell vamp is introduced
  2. Vladimir abuses living shit out of it
  3. Riot nerfs spell vamp while promising to: a. change vladimir b. change spellvamp
  4. mage update on PBE
  5. Rioter says Vlad is getting ready for rework, where he won't abuse it anymore
  6. "We are deleting spellvamp because of Vladimir" (it's like this Rioter forgot what he wrote 2 sentences before about vlads rework)

TL;DR

Spellvamp was almost always weak BECAUSE of Vladimir. That's why only 3~champions used it who already had some sort of spellvamp in their kit (synergy).

You think, that spellvamp was in it's "normal" state. It wasn't. Because of Vladimir.

MisterHealYoGirl1 votes

Uh, the spellvamp from Revolver and Will was actually drastically INCREASED after Vladimir's release. 10% before his release, then up to 15% and then 20% over the patches following that. It was eventually nerfed down to 12%, but that's still stronger than it was before Vlad's release. Vladimir was consistently nerfed while Revolver was on the rise: in trying to make spellvamp more appealing for other champions, Vladimir had to be gutted.

Spell vamp is only really good on short-ranged sustained damage mages with lots of single target damage; burst mages don't desperately need to survive once they've blown their load, long-range mages shouldn't be consistently taking enough damage to need it, and the way that spell-vamp works with AoE makes single-target a necessity. Given that mages generally specialize in burst or AoE, it's just not a great stat for them. There are maybe four champions who fit that description: Vladimir, Cassiopeia, Malzahar, and Ryze, and even then, it's just not that sexy a stat.

Saianna1 votes

It only looks like increase, but Riot also changed how it actually works.

It used to be 10% of what you deal, now it's some higher math of either it's AOE or single target etc. Which in turn turned spellvamp to asuper-niche item. Oh it used to be aura on WotA. Good times...

Still if you think about it 20% of spellvamp isn't THAT much when ADC can 50% lifesteal easy with 300 AD and some attack speed and resists.

MisterHealYoGirl1 votes

We're not talking about ADC itemization here, we're talking about spell vamp. Bottom line is, Riot has tried for years to make it viable; WotA has been reworked three times now in attempts to make spellvamp good. Despite all the time and energy poured into it, though, spellvamp remains more or less a dead stat. With that being so, Riot is cutting their losses, removing it and changing the ONE champion that relied on it so that he doesn't need it any more.

Lifesteal is good because an ADC needs to stay alive for the whole fight to do their damage; a Jinx going to be consistently attacked for 10+ seconds, and lifesteal lets her sustain through that. An Annie, on the other hand, doesn't have any real use for that kind of sustain. Even if it worked at full power on AoE, 20% vamp would work out to like a 600 damage burst heal at the beginning of the fight, which is of limited use at best. Fully enabling it on AoE might make it a little more viable on mages with limited sustained damage like Syndra or Anivia, but it would still likely come second to Zhonya's as a defensive item.

ADCs depend on lifesteal because they tend to lack other defensive options in their kit: hard CC like Ashe and Varus' ultimates is very much the exception to the rule. Mages tend to have other options: burst and CC are their trademarks. As such, they never came to depend on spellvamp as a group, leaning instead on the defenses inherent to their kits. The exceptions were the ones (one) whose synergy with the stat was simply too good to ignore. Essentially, spellvamp ONLY had an abuse case, and the champions who abused it had to be balanced around it.

Ozag the Mighty1 votes

Hexblade on Akali may not be as effective anymore...rip Akali

chipndip17 votes

And if you take a minute to think it over:

  • Crying over a stat that only Vlad uses. Why only Vlad? Cause mages use their rotations at full health at the start of the fight. Life steal is consistent for adcs, since they do the same thing no matter when you ask them. Mages throw rotations and then run for the hills until they're semi-online again (cause they won't have an ult this time). They don't give a shit about spell vamp. They either want targets dead the first time or they want utility items to survive after their rotations to try to pick off the remainders. They use shields and distance to preserve themselves.

  • Not realizing that by making Zhonya's cheaper, you hit that spike faster, so you have your anti-AD answer faster than before (especially since they didn't nerf the defense on it)

  • The belt gives the dash distance of A FUCKING VAYNE TUMBLE + IT CAN'T GO OVER WALLS.

  • We're forgetting there's a defensive option that gives self-peel by slowing enemies that get hit by it. Nah man, just ad champs. Riot doesn't give a shit. Get hawked down. A damaging slow that scales off your ap won't save you. That's not what that's for. That's for killing tanks.

  • Catalyst now heals you as you fight. Taking damage now heals your mana. So you now have a new early sustain option. Nah man, just ad champs though. This item? You buy this after your core build. Of course, right? Definitely won't help you in lane to keep up with mana-less opponents or anything. PSSSH, who said that!?

  • All this whining about cdr...you get cdr...and now all this whining about...?

  • If mana is gonna throw someone for a loop, what the fuck is the Tear item line even for anymore!?

MrWasjig1 votes

I think you're missing some of the overall problems, and missing potential problems this could lead to in the future :P

Neo Cyrus3 votes

You have no idea what you're talking about. It's like you spent an hour on the internet studying straw man argument technique and trolling methods before making the post. You're carried to Plat 5 with Gold MMR and have more losses than wins, essentially the same as last season, you don't understand nearly as much as you think you do.

NightKnightSai6 votes

Agreed This will be stupid as shit
40 ap on grail No spell vamp ( vlad fan ) 120 cd on zhonya vs 500 gold and 10 cdr wow thats gonna help alot vs zed Abyssal cost more and doesnt work vs minions ( wich is almost as stupid as giving darius q a heal) Good thing im an adc main now Thats the most gross things i have seen

SnugglePuggle942 votes

I know, this is so stupid. I just cringed when I first read the changes, and now I hate them.

EvilRabbitt1 votes

Vlad will get a rework they said. I think.

NightKnightSai3 votes

I use to main vlad/swain when i was silver and i rly like them and dont want them to get reworked or changed but riot is killing them both and reworking them

RocketRelm1 votes

I'd at least wait for the reworks to come out to judge them and abandon. There have been successful reworks, after all.

NightKnightSai4 votes

As far as reworks goes I cant trust riot on my best champs bcuz they fucked up so hard in the marksman and juggernauts

t0ad51 votes

{quoted}

As far as reworks goes I cant trust riot on my best champs bcuz they fucked up so hard in the marksman and juggernauts

Don't forget Mordekaiser. I'm seeing a lot of old favorites coming up on one of their screw-up missions, and bet I don't play into next year. They certainly(t) aren't getting any more money from me, after the 6 years I've played.

Neo Cyrus5 votes

I did my best to speak out in the PBE thread - http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/79cto3EB-planned-69-mana-x-mp5-x-ap-x-mr-item-pass

And got outright ignored as usual because they're offended that they could possibly be wrong. No, speaking more "politely" aka brown-nosing at that point doesn't get a reply out of them. It's been tried over the years. If they deem what you stated to be too difficult to respond to and goes against what they're saying, then they ignore it.

I haven't been playing much at all since mages got gutted in the preaseason 6 changes, waiting for some buffs in the mid year update, boy was I surprised when I saw it's a second round of nerfs. Fuck this game and fuck Riot. When these changes go through I'll finally quit completely.

Then again, what do I know, I only exclusively played mages since season 2 and reached high Plat/low Diamond MMR last season, what I say can't possibly be correct.

Arakadia4 votes

It's funny what they did to Athene's because NONE of the immobile mages they picked can use it's passive. Vlad can't heal allies too so it's not like he has any replacement for WoTA

CatSith3 votes
  • WOTA was only used by whom? vlad
  • Mp5 removed for solo laners, but added items stats that rewards you for spending mana. (Tear and catalyst)
  • Zhonya is more accessible ( CD seems a bit harsh but its in pbe and could change.)
  • Overall Mana and CD stat is more accessible
  • Item diversity for ALL Mages

Good Riddance, If you can't see the big picture and nippick on certain changes than you won't be missed.

Vistha Kai3 votes

Damn. I got quoted.

You see, the issue here is that Riot knows better.

Like a wicked version of a parent, that can never show a sign of doubt about their decision, regardless of how thoughtless, unfounded it wouldn't be, while kids mustn't complain about it, discuss it even, becase that'd undermine the parent's position.

Athenes Lulu1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kheqb3dV,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2016-04-07T23:22:57.916+0000)

Like a wicked version of a parent, that can never show a sign of doubt about their decision, regardless of how thoughtless, unfounded it wouldn't be, while kids mustn't complain about it, discuss it even, becase that'd undermine the parent's position.

That's almost every (first generation) Asian household ever.

Vistha Kai1 votes

I wouldn't have known how a household like that looks like, but I sure have somebody in my family who fits the bill.

It's not pretty.

PK Love3 votes

I'm right there with you man. Today I am officially retiring from a four year journey with League as well. Ever since Tencent bought the remaining equity League hasn't been fun. Between gamemodes dying out, unnecessary item removal/changes, and the never ending swarm of terrible patches, I just can't find a reason to stay. What's sad is that I loved this game and watching it die like this is heartbreaking.

If any off you guys up at Riot or Tencent read this, pay attention.

  1. Stop removing unused or off meta items. It's not going to be any trouble just keeping them there.

  2. Stop changing champions that people love. And no before you say anything, I'm not talking about Taric, Poppy, or Sion. I'm talking about Mordekaiser, and Garen and the terrible overhaul updates like Juggernaut and Mage.

  3. Listen to your community.

sreggad1 votes

my god this is the stupidest thing I've seen on this board. Countless times has the price tag of zhonya's been complained about but now that they reduced the price and the AP to justify the price drop now people are complaining that they did that? Stop wanting the cake and trying to eat it too.

SpongebobIsLife1 votes

woah woah man, chill. In the words of Trey Songz, "You say you cant have cake, and eat it too, but ain't that what you're supposed to do? "

WarlockLaw3 votes

They also increased the cd of the active. People only wanted a lower cost so they could have the active sooner, they didn't want the active nerfed to get that. And nobody wanted the cdr, so that being tacked on too further nerfed what we liked about it. This change is far more drastic than what anyone expected when they asked for a lower cost.

Stacona1 votes

Morellos isnt getting nerfed, the only items getting less AP are defense items which is 2, Hourglass and Abyssal, Hourglass is going to be much cheaper and Abyssal a lot tankier and a better aura in the late game

Mages will have MORE health sustain than they do now because of the Catalyst change and as long as the mana regen mastery stays then stacking mana grants more mana regen as well which you are getting more mana which buffs Archangel ALOT on top of ALL the tear items (which is a grand total of 3, 5 with the transformed items) is getting a Final Fantasy mechanic of reduced mana costs and more mana items means more AP for Archangels (also the reduced mana costs will be great for Manamune Corki, Ezreal will more than likely need nerfs if he didn't already need them)

They are finally nerfing Banshee's and Visage effectiveness slightly with almost half the half of banshee and a significant chunk of mr being taken out

There are also more items that give mages extra damage and some to give them more utility

The only thing they need to do is make sure Grail is for mages and NOT for supports; they basically just need to remove grail's MR and in doing so the gold cost goes down too, they can always make another AP and MR item if need be

Grail is the only thing people should be rightfully upset over, besides that the items are a net buff for mages

WarlockLaw2 votes

Mages will have MORE health sustain than they do now because of the Catalyst change and as long as the mana regen mastery stays then stacking mana grants more mana regen as well which you are getting more mana which buffs Archangel ALOT on top of ALL the tear items (which is a grand total of 3, 5 with the transformed items)

Imo catalyst and its upgrade paths should be relegated to short range mages/tanks that like to be in the middle of the teamfights and not for mages skirting around the edge of the teamfight. However with these new changes the only way to increase your mana regen through items is this new catalyst or with chalice. The new Athene's is absolutely garbage on anybody that wants to deal damage so your left with RoA for champs like Lux/Ziggs/Xerath/Vel'Koz. So now when these champions go oom they have to base, and they will go oom unless they have blue buff. So now every mage is going to build tear and hope they wear he enemy team down faster than their mana pool.

is getting a Final Fantasy mechanic of reduced mana costs and more mana items means more AP for Archangels

Its being refunded not reduced, minor difference, but this means that Lux can't cast her ult with 75 mana, but if she has the 100 mana for it she will be at 25 after she casts it.

They are finally nerfing Banshee's and Visage effectiveness slightly with almost half the half of banshee and a significant chunk of mr being taken out

If you call the Zhonya's chanage a buff, then so is the Banshee's chanage. It's keeping the same MR, dropping 200 health and costs 450 gold less. Personally that seems overall better than the Zhonya's change, but at the very least effectively equivalent of a change.

There are also more items that give mages extra damage and some to give them more utility

You can only build one of them, and as they are the only good one is the Rocket Belt, which should not be added (active dashes/blinks are in the same realm of active stuns). The one that slows seems worse than Rylai's, and Gunblade still won't be built by mages

The only thing they need to do is make sure Grail is for mages and NOT for supports; they basically just need to remove grail's MR and in doing so the gold cost goes down too, they can always make another AP and MR item if need be

Grail is the only thing people should be rightfully upset over, besides that the items are a net buff for mages

Grail is the biggest offense imo, I still don't understand why they don't see that Morellonomicon is the niche one (Grievous Wounds on a passive seems more niche than MR to me) and balance them where Athene's is better unless Grievous wounds is relevant. These changes will only be a buff so long as that rocket comes out, and even then its really going to only impact AP champions that like health and standing in the middle of the enemy team Singed Chogath Swain and maybe even Karthus Amumu

AATTRROOXX1 votes

[deleted]

SnugglePuggle941 votes

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

thumbnail91 votes

The mp5 and mana switch is fine as long as burst caster's damage curve reflects the change from sustained damage to immediate. This actually deals with poke which has always been a terrible problem and meta.

Remove spell vamp is fine as long as they buff the base vamp of champs who heavily rely on it like vlad and swain. Honestly, burst caster's can't use the stat, poke champs can't either. Only sustained damage champions like swain and vlad really shine with her. At this point while we want it, it is a worthless stat. It won't be missed as long as vlad and Swain are buffed or changed to deal with it.

The hourglass change I don't see why they took 30 ap from it? Honestly just drop the cost and leave like a 10-15 second cd increase. 30 seconds is way to god damn long. Ap players are literally paying for 10%, which you all did bitch about not having, and its really just killing the item instead of benefiting anyways.

Hextech belt is like wtf this item is broken and should never be added. The late game burst on this item is as good as or better then DFG was. This isn't even the dash. Although, my god Galio.

They want mid laners to burst

They want supports to make use of sustained spell casting through mp5

These changes will be bad if statement one does not happen.

Levyathyn1 votes

My favorite part of all of this is how they talk about how spell vamp made laning absolute trash as some champions, such as Akali. The removal of it will only help these champions... who aren't going to get buffed, reworked, or looked at for several months, save Vlad who might make it out of the mage update okay.

And then they're just gutting several items, taking mana regen away but giving better cooldown so you can recall faster and check out that sweet animation, and get worse equipment sooner. I mean sure, there's some interesting stuff with mana manipulation in there, but let's destory our current armor and AP item, and move the core mana regen, MR, and cooldown item to supports, and instead we'll get a bunch of health and mana on everything, whoo!

So the tank meta is now spreading. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a heavy meta on Malzahar, Lissandra, Swain, Kassadin Maokai, Galio, and Ryze, but only them? And now there's going to be a 3k health Annie rocketing towards you with her ult ready, as if she wasn't enough trouble without a dash on a 30 second cooldown.

I just don't even know what to expect anymore.

SnugglePuggle941 votes

Yea it's ridiculous. The more absurd things/nerfs/changes they come out with, the more I shake my head and think that Riot needs to fire their employees.

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