So you nerf Elise, Riot?

SnugglePuggle94·Jan 20, 2016·61 votes·4,244 views

Elise is already SLOW as hell, and nerfing her movement speed is already ridiculous while Lee is allowed to be as strong as he is. Why do Annie, Morgana, Twitch, Malphite, and others have better MS than she does? Is nerfing her to the movement speed of Zyra and Sona really the best thing to do?

No! Riot, you know how she's been so strong lately? Because of the movement speed on Runic Echoes. It has +10% movement speed. Nerf that, not Elise. If you nerf it after you nerf her, then compensate her back, not leave her gutted like you have so many times to her and other champions already (ex, Sejauni, who you nerfed when she was strong with Cinderhulk, then you nerfed Cinderhulk and never compensated her).

Now my rant is over. Hopefully Riot will listen.

95 Comments

UirayaJan 20, 201652 votes

Riot: "Why the fuck are you playing anything other than Lee Sin? How many times do we have to repeat ourselves?"

PennsJan 20, 201613 votes

Elise has 6% higher win rate than Lee and a solid pick rate as well kek

Synx7Jan 20, 201624 votes

{quoted}

Elise has 6% higher win rate than Lee and a solid pick rate as well kek

Idgaf about your win rate statistic that doesn't mean/prove CRAP. I'm tired of seeing this bastard LeeSin in every fucking game i play

PennsJan 20, 201610 votes

Same but Elise kinda deserves nerfs

Restless SlumberJan 20, 20167 votes

As an Elise main I would say that she doesn't need nerfs, but runic echoes does. Before runic echoes, cinderhulk was straight better than runeglaive on her. Now, you don't have to build magic pen, but instead flat AP and one shot people in human form. And with off tank Elise you are literally untouchable with high burst and remaining tanky. Right now I think they should just need runic echoes and she's be perfect again. Right now she's just a monster and it's surprising the amount of people who don't play her. She is still a very underplayed jungler and champion in general at low elo.

NarasimhaJan 20, 20166 votes

As an Elise main I would say that she doesn't need nerfs, but runic echoes does.

I mean, if you are an Elise main, you're going to be biased towards her.

Fact of the matter is, no other jungler took off with Runic like Elise did. I mean, her win rate SHOT up. Why nerf the item for everyone, for what it does to one champion? Sure, it would make sense if multiple champions turned around because of it, but that's not the case.

Restless SlumberJan 20, 20169 votes

No. Nidalee and Ekko jungle winrates went up too. And again, I will say that cinderhulk Elise was much more balanced. This new runic echoes Elise is what is making her OP, not her.

NarasimhaJan 20, 20165 votes

Ekko went up 1% Nidalee went up 2% Elise went up 5%.

There is a LOT of difference there. Hell, Ekko and Nidalee still have low(er) winrates! The next closest is is Fiddlesticks, and even he only jumped up 4%. Still surprised about that, but thats not here or there.

Yes, Runic Echoes made AP junglers more viable. But only Elise ran with it like she did.

rtbf223219960Jan 21, 20162 votes

One of the things that I think make the nerf stupid is that riot is nerfing her because of how strong runic echoes made her. If you don't build runic echoes, you're missing something you shouldn't for no reason at all. Also, with how many winrates it has raised, they really should just nerf it to the 7-8% movespeed buff luden's echo has. Elise

AbyssphereJan 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

One of the things that I think make the nerf stupid is that riot is nerfing her because of how strong runic echoes made her. If you don't build runic echoes, you're missing something you shouldn't for no reason at all. Also, with how many winrates it has raised, they really should just nerf it to the 7-8% movespeed buff luden's echo has.

Every champion is balanced around their itemisation, though. Runic being nerfed nerfs every other AP jungler, when Elise is the only one who needs nerfed. You really think it's better to nerf every AP jungler than to nerf an Elise off-build that's significantly worse than her proper build?

You're playing a suboptimal build if you're using Cinderhulk Elise as it is - if nothing else you should appreciate these nerfs cos they might force you into building what she should actually be building.

rtbf223219960Jan 21, 20161 votes

they're going to nerf runic echoes to luden's speed regardless, then leave elise gutted.

AbyssphereJan 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

they're going to nerf runic echoes to luden's speed regardless, then leave elise gutted.

Not unless other AP junglers show up as being problems, which doesn't seem likely to happen in the immediate future. Cinderhulk was used on EVERY meta jungler, Runic Echoes is currently used on... one or two meta junglers (depending on whether or not you count Nidalee).

Not to mention, Runic Echoes and Luden's already have the same % MS.

rtbf223219960Jan 22, 20161 votes

then if you're like me and build ap elise, why are they nerfing her base ms because of runic echoes when you would get ludens instead of lich bane?

AbyssphereJan 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

then if you're like me and build ap elise, why are they nerfing her base ms because of runic echoes when you would get ludens instead of lich bane?

I play AP Elise but never played full squishy Elise, I prefer AP bruiser. Standard build is item 1402 item 3020 item 3116 item 3001 item 3157 item 3151 I'd never bought a Luden's in a PVP before this item came out, and I've not bought Lich Bane since the removal of Runeglaive. So I've never had more MS than I have on her now.

rtbf223219960Jan 22, 20161 votes

I build her full ap and when runeglaive was a thing I would buy ludens, now I buy lich bane, but nerfing her base ms just because you get ludens ms first instead of lich bane is kind of dumb, ya know?

SammystormJan 21, 20161 votes

Disappears for a year. Comes back for a couple of weeks and everyone cries foul.

JQKAndreiJan 21, 20162 votes

A year? Elise's been quite popular at worlds.

SammystormJan 22, 20161 votes

I was specifically referring to Lee Sin

JQKAndreiJan 22, 20161 votes

Lee? I don't recall Lee dissappearing... ever.

SammystormJan 22, 20161 votes

Well season 2 lee was rarely seen. Season 5 Lee was rarely seen. Periods in Season 3 and season 4 he was rarely seen. You might see him more because you are lower elo then me and in a different region but he doesn't appear nearly as often as everyone here claims for me at least.

JQKAndreiJan 22, 20161 votes

I've been gold 1 for a while, anyway since early season 4 when I started, lee was always popular.

rtbf223219960Jan 21, 20161 votes

tfw i played elise all the time i had her, not just recently

Jhin UItd JFKJan 21, 20166 votes

{quoted}

Elise has 6% higher win rate than Lee and a solid pick rate as well kek

I feel bad that you got downvote spammed for speaking the truth...

AbyssphereJan 20, 201610 votes

Why are you pretending her melee form doesn't exist? Yeah she's slow as hell in ranged form, but her melee form has the highest movement speed tier in the game. That's relevant.

CatSithJan 21, 20161 votes

Not the highest anymore, they nerfed that too.

AbyssphereJan 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Not the highest anymore, they nerfed that too.

Well yeah, but the OP is talking about how slow she already is. She's slower after the nerf but even then a 350 MS form is worth mentioning.

CatSithJan 21, 20162 votes

Yeah but there is no reason to nerf her human form if they are nerfing the spider form already. Her human form MS will be in the lowest ms tier with the nerf.

PennsJan 20, 20165 votes

Yeah nerf an item because 1 or 2 champs are op with it.

NostolgicSkiesJan 20, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Yeah nerf an item because 1 or 2 champs are op with it

isnt that exactly what they did with cinderhulk and runeglaive when they came out? nerf'd them cause 1 or 2 ppl abused it? (sej/cinderhulk, Ez/runeglaive?)

AbyssphereJan 20, 20166 votes

{quoted}

isnt that exactly what they did with cinderhulk and runeglaive when they came out? nerf'd them cause 1 or 2 ppl abused it? (sej/cinderhulk, Ez/runeglaive?)

Cinderhulk no, Runeglaive maybe. The reason you only ever saw Sej and Gragas as OP during CInderhulk time was because there was no point abusing it with other tanks while they existed. Most tanks were too strong in the jungle with that item, but they weren't as strong as Sej/Grag so they didn't get played. You could also tell Cinderhulk was a bit much because most AD bruisers started building the tank item rather than their own item regularly - even Cinderhulk Evelynn existed.

Runeglaive did basically get nerfed because of one abuse case but they did at least try to compensate for that by making it stronger in clearing the jungle, so it's meh. In any case, Elise being too strong with Runic Echoes isn't an abuse case like mid Ez was, it's just a champion being a bit too strong, so there's no reason to prioritise nerfing the item over her.

NostolgicSkiesJan 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Cinderhulk no, Runeglaive maybe. The reason you only ever saw Sej and Gragas as OP during CInderhulk time was because there was no point abusing it with other tanks while they existed. Most tanks were too strong in the jungle with that item, but they weren't as strong as Sej/Grag so they didn't get played. You could also tell Cinderhulk was a bit much because most AD bruisers started building the tank item rather than their own item regularly - even Cinderhulk Evelynn existed.

Runeglaive did basically get nerfed because of one abuse case but they did at least try to compensate for that by making it stronger in clearing the jungle, so it's meh. In any case, Elise being too strong with Runic Echoes isn't an abuse case like mid Ez was, it's just a champion being a bit too strong, so there's no reason to prioritise nerfing the item over her.

not to get off topic but cinderhulk/sunfire build evelyn has been around since beta when eve would stack sunfirecaps. . .that wasnt an abuse or anything out of the ordinary in fact some people still prefer cinderhulk on evelyn to this day. an abuse of cinderhulk/sunfirecape would be when katarina was able to Mpenn tank top with sunfire cap ( I forget what season that was)

AbyssphereJan 20, 20163 votes

{quoted}

not to get off topic but cinderhulk/sunfire build evelyn has been around since beta when eve would stack sunfirecaps. . .that wasnt an abuse or anything out of the ordinary in fact some people still prefer cinderhulk on evelyn to this day. an abuse of cinderhulk/sunfirecape would be when katarina was able to Mpenn tank top with sunfire cap ( I forget what season that was)

Well yes but Sunfire stacking on Evelynn made a bit more sense back when she didn't reveal herself by getting close to enemies.

alfavhunterJan 20, 20169 votes

{quoted}

Yeah nerf an item because 1 or 2 champs are op with it

Sion and sij/cinder hulk

Champions gutted. Item nerfed champions left to rot

PennsJan 20, 20166 votes

Theyre both pretty good again tho

alfavhunterJan 20, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Theyre both pretty good again tho

After months of rotting, and they are good by sheer number strength in sions case, they broke things on him and haven't fixed it

For example, when they changed how his Q interacts with minions and monsters damage wise it made it so you couldn't use Q after R without making Sion perform another action after R "lands", like having to take a step to the side, then You could Q, this wasn't an issue before the change

When they rebalanced E they made it so if you E something and smite it as its flying back smite would deal 0 damage, this wasn't an issue before the change

And the broke sions W for jungling because until he builds health and resistances to stack with it, the base value of it is so low that the 3 second resets nation timer (was 2 seconds) makes it worthless for early jungle

Many ideas have been posted about fixing the W bug that would only effect jungle Sion

All ignored, bug fixes ignored, design flaw for jungling ignored

Sure Sion is decent right now, by sheer strength in his numbers

For example imaging a yi with no spells but his base stats were buffed by 500% and his base MS was 375

He would be strong because of sheer numbers strength

EcchiOtakuTMJan 20, 20161 votes

They also did it with feral, DFT, and various other stuff. Although sorry to say I'm glad they chose to just nerf the champ and not both the champ and item this time.

rtbf223219960Jan 21, 20162 votes

They're gonna nerf elise, then nerf runic echoes and not compensate elise. Proof of that exists with the Sion/Sejuani cinderhulk stuff.

rtbf223219960Jan 21, 20162 votes

Yeah, but if you nerf elise because of an item that effects her, she will still feel the effects of the nerf even if she doesn't get that item, making her much weaker than pre-nerf build without runic echoes.

NotClarkolasJan 21, 20164 votes

the only people who dont like elise nerfs are elise mains she is cancer to play against lol

Masala ChaiJan 21, 20162 votes

I don't play Elise, and I don't like the nerfs to her. I like a little bit of diversity within the jungle and not see something like Lee Sin or Rengar being seen possibly every game. Yeah, Elise has a pretty big pick rate at 6.13, but that's nothing on Lee Sin's 31.51% pick rate. Her cocoon is relatively easy to dodge unless she telegraphed the skill shot

I play Diana jungle.

AeszarckJan 21, 20163 votes

I know that Runic Echoes made Elise very strong, and I know that she'll be building it in at least ninety percent of her jungle games since none of the other enchantments fit well with her. I think that it's a good item, and while I'm not sure how overtuned it is, I think that if it it's going to be part of her kit in at least 90% of games, they should balance her like it's part of her kit. If she'll be overpowered with an item that she buys in most of her games but the item does not affect break most other champions, then it is a better idea to nerf the champion than the item. Luden's Echo was a luxury buy on her jungle before, but now that she will be building Runic Echoes almost every game because it's her jungle item, I think that it is appropriate to balance her using that item. HOWEVER This does not account for her laning. Her top and mid lane (and support, if you play that <.<) will be substantially nerfed because of this, especially since she stays in human form for the majority of laning phase and only changes into spider form to finish trades, escape, and execute people. She also does not build Luden's Echo every game as a laner, and so lane Elise will be slow as heck. I got my level five on Elise primarily through top laning as her, so this is going to hurt. I'm not especially happy with the change, but I can understand Riot's rationale.

CarnariusJan 21, 20163 votes

in all honesty, elise seems to be one of the strongest junglers right now. there really aren't many that can tower dive you at lvl 3 easily. i think they should just revert her stun duration buff like 10-12 patches ago

WarlordTimJan 21, 20162 votes

Complains about Elise already being too slow... Anivia You what mate?

rtbf223219960Jan 21, 20163 votes

Yes but her burst is ranged. Elise has to get in to kill you, and less movement speed leaves plenty of time for unfair counterplay.

WarlordTimJan 21, 20161 votes

Elise just gained an extra 10% movespeed in her jungle item and now she's going to lose 1.5% of her base movement. I don't understand why people are complaining.

rtbf223219960Jan 21, 20161 votes

If you don't build her runic echoes, you lose 1.5% base ms for no reason. Also, they should nerf runic echoes to 7-8% like ludens. I have a feel they will, then leave elise gutted.

WarlordTimJan 22, 20161 votes

Luden's Echo is 10% movement speed. Has been since 5.13.

rtbf223219960Jan 21, 20161 votes

because if other junglers (ekko and nidalee mostly) gained higher winrates too then why don't they get in on the action? or better yet, just nerf runic echoes to what ludens ms is???

WarlordTimJan 22, 20161 votes

Luden's Echo is 10% movement speed. Has been since 5.13.

rtbf223219960Jan 22, 20161 votes

Then my question is why they are nerfing elise when you would buy ludens on elise instead of lich bane... it makes absolutely no sense.