Can we nerf thresh yet?

Succubús GF·Jul 9, 2017·79 votes·6,563 views

Or does he need a 100% pick rate first?

{quoted}

thresh has been the most picked support since his release. since the first damn patch he got released. no support has even reached his playrate.

they have to REMOVE. something from thresh kit. they have to remove something. i dont know what. maybe make him commit to his Q like blitz instead of using it to abuse melee champions or just harass. which it shouldnt be used for that.

thresh has everything. EVERYTHING besides healing. and there is items and lifesteal and a summoner spell for th at. engage disengage. you name it. 3 forms of CC. a slow that is practically a stun due to how massive it is. 2 of them being gigantic aoe. and a get out of jail card with his latnern.

193 Comments

My HeartshakerJul 9, 201712 votes

I really don't understand the point of these threads.

You're giving absolutely 0 information on why we should nerf thresh and all you're providing is, "does he need a 100% pick rate first?"

How do you expect people to discuss anything with you when you contribute nothing to the discussion?

Ben SwoIoJul 9, 201710 votes

Wtf is there to nerf? It isn't like he's smackin people around left and right. He either uses his kit to engage or disengage, not both. Dodge his hook, don't get flayed, pay attention to the cool downs. It's not like he point and clicks op shields / healing on people. Make him miss, he's very beatable. It isn't like I walk into lane and just rofl stomp with whoever my ADC may be that match. Takes effort for us to win. I guess he's just the flavor of the month. Went from Lulu, to Ahri, to Ori, now Thresh.

Fisher No ChainsJul 9, 201710 votes

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/thresh/platinum yea, he's definitely perfectly balanced, just like pre nerfs Lulu. :^)

Ben SwoIoJul 9, 20174 votes

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/janna then what about this? Right. I really don't get the hate for Thresh right now. I've gone against him plenty of times and I did not feel it was cancerous nor impossible.

Fisher No ChainsJul 9, 201718 votes

There's a huge difference between Thresh and Janna: Thresh has a 20% ban rate, Janna has a 1.7% ban rate. Thresh has 37% pick rate, Janna has 14% pick rate. So: Thresh is picked 2x times more than Janna and has almost the same winrate, and he's also banned in 20% of plat+ games, and this means that people actually find him frustrating and/or overpowered.

Janna does her job as a peeling support/enchanter and she's stupidly easy to play, probably the lowest skill floor champion in the game. Thresh instead is so overloaded that he can do every job and still succeed... And you know, he's also way harder to play than Janna.

Ben SwoIoJul 9, 20174 votes

So...he's hard to play but needs nerfs because when he's successful he's too good? I mean c'mon, really? So make him hard to use and also weak when successful......uh huh. Like I said, learn to dodge skill shots or counter pick him. Me and my random ADC just beat a bot lane Thresh / Tristana pretty badly with no problem. I used Morgana, not that hard.

Fisher No ChainsJul 9, 201713 votes

Actually we saw a similar issue with Lee. If a champion is hard to play, yet still has both high winrate and pickrate, then that means that even "occasional" players succeed with them. So it's not about mains playing the champ in the best way, it's about 37% of the support player base in plat+ being able to win a lot of games despite the champ being "hard".

EnrovyJul 9, 20178 votes

Lee and thresh are in different categories, Lee was too mobile. Thresh is too flexible, he can peel, tank, and engage. Thresh is too good at everything. Where as Janna's main role is peel although can make plays, but is less desirable and less successful.

A Basic IslandJul 9, 201710 votes

I said this year's ago

Thresh could deal no damage, and would still get picked for his utility alone

MrHaZeYoJul 9, 20177 votes

Someone will just rise to his place and be complained about afterwards.

Succubús GFJul 9, 201719 votes

The problem ia his kit though. If janna was at the top that would be different. Or soraka or literally anyone else

hi ìm grootJul 9, 20172 votes

Top of what? His win rate isnt even good...

Succubús GFJul 9, 201719 votes

He literally has the number 1 win rate LOL

Ben SwoIoJul 9, 20175 votes

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/janna

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/thresh/platinum

Number one what?

Succubús GFJul 9, 201714 votes

Oh I can do that too! http://www.op.gg/champion/thresh/statistics/support

Ben SwoIoJul 9, 201710 votes

Congrats, you know how to use the internet. Now if you notice they're pretty close in win percentage, yet no one is crying for Janna nerfs. This is why I'm confused about all the Thresh hate right now. Is it just a buncha people who can't dodge hooks? People who don't know how to counter pick? Like I said, I've beaten many Thresh lanes and never felt like the lane was cancerous or un-beatable. I have also played my butt off in matches we have won as Thresh. It's by no means freelo or a roflstomp.

RatbertJul 9, 201722 votes

Yeah you can also notice that thresh's playrate more than doubles janna's. Really makes you think.

If anything, thresh's lantern is too strong and you also can't dodge for your teammates, not to mention it's the only skillshot that doesn't give any indication of where its going during the cast time.

Also, janna is one of the most complained and nerfed supports in this game. Do we visit the same boards?

Ben SwoIoJul 9, 20175 votes

I don't understand how a lantern is too strong. Hopefully it's thrown in the right spot, then hopefully the enemy team doesn't stand on it to block the click. Happens all the time. It's not some magical insta-warp to safety tool.

We do visit the same boards. All I see right now are people complaining about Draven, Ori, Thresh, and how tanks get shredded too easily. Haven't seen anything about Janna recently, especially since Thresh seems to be the flavor of the month right now.

Brain Errör 404Jul 9, 20173 votes

Thresh can get that refunded cooldown on landing hooks removed... that'd balance him a bit.

rtbf30982911Jul 9, 201720 votes

Thresh is the flavor of the month because ANY champion that have over 20% pick rate and above 52% winrate in plat+ needs some kind of adjustment. Ahri needed it, Lee needed it, Jhin needed it, Caitlyn still needs it, and Thresh needs it.

According to op.gg Thresh has been the number 1 support both in play rate and win rate for more than 2 months now. Something needs to change.

Also it's kinda lame arguing so vehemently against Thresh nerfs when your match history is filled with Thresh games and you've racked up 150 games of Thresh this ranked season alone...

BarcidJul 9, 201711 votes

So this seems to be the tail end of this conversation, so I'll just give you a heads up on winrate vs. playrate and how they tend to correlate as issues.

If a champion has a high winrate like Heimer did at one point sitting at 55% or so a while back, nobody would bat an eye because next to Heimer's winrate was his playrate sitting at some 4% of players or so. Very low. Meaning most people who played Heim were actually just Heim mains.

But as the playrates start to rise, you end up getting more and more games where players are using the champion and that gives you a much larger sample group. This sample group ends up not only having the champion's mains in it but also players who really are just playing the "flavor of the month", effectively muddying the winrates of the champion and bringing it closer to 50%. So what looks like an effectively balanced champion is in fact the exact opposite - it's dominating the player base for one and its mains are seeing significantly higher winrates than what you see for overall because, again, the total average is muddied by people who don't always get the champion.

This is why correlating playrates and winrates like this can be a good sign of a champion being unhealthy. This goes in the opposite direction as well, where a champion being played almost none of the time with below 50% winrates would mean even the champions' mains have issues trying to stay above 50%.

AtlasMinorJul 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Congrats, you know how to use the internet. Now if you notice they're pretty close in win percentage, yet no one is crying for Janna nerfs. This is why I'm confused about all the Thresh hate right now. Is it just a~~ buncha people who can't dodge hooks? People who don't know how to counter pick? Like I said, I've beaten many Thresh lanes and never felt like the lane was cancerous or ~~un-beatable~~. I have also played my butt off in matches we have won as Thresh. It's by no means freelo~~ or a r~~oflstomp.~~

WTH? Thresh is the counter pick that is the complaint.. Im no way worried about Thresh because i play real support, only reason people think Thresh or any other champion needs nerfs, is because every champion is strong against 2-3 champions out of 130+ choices, its just like that.

Players keep picking same champions that die to thresh.

Janna need nerfs? Then your playing her wrong she is King of Peel and Shield is her only strongest suit.

AND JANNA GOT A NERF Tailwind and (R) both got reworked to absolute shat , and AP Janna is just a surprise someone tries to pull for fun, Oh Janna's R also got area reduced and shortened time cast, but Janna used to be a beast Support.

Shouldn't be chasing down Thresh anyways, hes a back AP support with very limited range and a near impossible counter that takes months of practice just to learn.

Edited for Real English Dictionary words, crossed out anything .[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

Taric

Ben SwoIoJul 9, 20173 votes

Thresh is the counter pick that is the complaint.. Im no way worried about Thresh because i play real support,

Who is he countering? Who cares anyway, everyone has a counter pick. I counter pick Thresh picks, what's the big deal? You don't seem to be worried about him since you play "real support", so why is everyone else? You can't be the only "real support" out there.

Players keep picking same champions that die to thresh.

Who on earth is dying to Thresh? He doesn't kill anyone anymore than Leona Blitzcrank etc.

Janna need nerfs? Then your playing her wrong she is King of Peel and Shield is her only strongest suit.

I don't really care about Janna. I could beat her in lane just as I could Thresh. I was just giving an example of someone else who is much easier to use than Thresh and has extremely effective and reliable peeling / shielding / healing.

Shouldn't be chasing down Thresh anyways, hes a back AP support with very limited range and a near impossible counter that takes months of practice just to learn.

What on earth are you talking about?

Edited for Real English Dictionary words, crossed out anything .

I'm not writing some paper for college or a professional work place. No one gives a damn. Don't be that guy, especially when your own sentences have words with improper capitalization. People get what I'm saying, it doesn't matter as long as it's not ridiculously un-structured or written extremely poor. It's the internet, who cares.

Hèntaî Jul 9, 20172 votes

Shut him down real quick and got downvoted. I got chu fam

MrHaZeYoJul 9, 20173 votes

Thing is, when Janna or Raka were at the top of the table for Supports they were complained about, non-stop.

When Janna is to good she basically negates what any melee champ wants to do, when Raka is at the top of her game you can't kill anyone without killing her 1st, and she builds semi tanky so it's not like she'll just drop dead.

My HeartshakerJul 9, 20176 votes

Thresh's kit is overloaded.

He has peel, CC, engage, disengage and a lantern to help ganks or to save people.

That being said, he can't do both things at once - what I mean by this is:

If he uses his Q, he effectively self CC's himself for a good 1-2 seconds and if it misses, it's on a ridiculously high cooldown. His lantern is a single target shield with a one way return. His E can be used to peel or engage, not both. His ult is on a fairly high cooldown and applies damage only to one target, though he can slow multiple enemies.

Furthermore his cooldowns are incredibly high - and I'm not exaggerating, ALL of his abilities have high CD.

He's also one of those champs that never see a low playrate and if he is decent in meta, has an incredibly high playrate because he is fun to play. Other examples are Lucian LeeSin Riven Yasuo because they are montage-worthy champions.

However, I have to agree he is a bit strong right now and should be slightly nerfed. I'd propose to only allow the 3 second CD reduction on his Q only apply to champions, not minions.

TakazakiJul 9, 20177 votes

why does thresh need a nerf exactly?

popular champions are popular but that doesnt mean they need nerfs.

SteelflameJul 9, 20178 votes

Popular is fine if it isn't also the #1 win rate in the role. If that happens, then you actually need to pay attention to it. Hes drowning out other picks, and it's easy to see why. He has received a bunch of indirect buffs lately. He loves new Relic quest, support item reworks a few patches ago are exclusively buffs to him, the fact that the meta is ADC centric means he is in the most impactful lane, armor penetration nerfs to BC and the LW line help him a ton as ALL of his armor is bonus armor, as his passive armor is counted as bonus and it takes the place of his armor per level he would normally get, and the support meta itself is one that favors him, as the mages that gave him trouble in bot lane are all gone, and enchanters are in. He dominates most enchanters. Seriously, Thresh has had some indirect buff or another practically every patch for the last few months.

And when a high skill floor generalist is the highest win rate and play rate in a role, it is heavily implying a major balance problem for that champion. Thresh is a champion who is supposed to be hard enough that he should probably average a 48-49% win rate on average, with his mains easily being able to bring him to 55%+.

He has also been holding this #1 winrate+Play rate for about 3 patches now, and was starting to show as a dominate pick before (Being #2-3 on both play and pick rates).

aspects1Jul 9, 20177 votes

i really dont see a problem with thresh do people hate playing against him? not really is he op? not really is he fun? yes i dont see the problem here, it doesn't matter that he has such a high pick rate, its just that he is a well designed champion when you compare him to almost every other support champion, he just appears to be way more interactive

fuffychanJul 9, 20176 votes

Ive been asking for thresh nerfs since his release. Seriously he has literally everything a support could possibly want and more (lantern) except healing.

TheMoralSupportJul 9, 20173 votes

item 3107

My HeartshakerJul 9, 20172 votes

With the recent redemption changes, redemption isn't as good on him anymore.

He'll more likely go item 3109 .

ShablagooJul 9, 20176 votes

how about we buff champs till they are good instead of nerfing ones to the ground

Succubús GFJul 9, 20176 votes

If you made soraka's heal not sap her hp away id never complain about anything ever again

ShablagooJul 9, 20171 votes

Idk man Soraka still is outperforming thresh by a tiny margin, also Sona, Janna, and Nunu( he is a support jg so he counts) all are outperforming him. Personally the support class is overtuned cuz of their items not the champ thresh was so bad before tank support item buffs.

Edit: Also I know ppl are gonna be like thresh is a high skill champion, but both his skill shots, if e is considered one isnt even that hard to hit as long as ur close to him, his q isnt that bad once you play him a few games. He honestly is an example, along with Leona that support should follow suit free heals and shields isnt fun gameplay.

Succubús GFJul 9, 20174 votes

How? Lmfao he has pretty much double her pick rate and a higher win rate :/

ShablagooJul 9, 20171 votes

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/diamond/by-winrate Dont know where your getting ur stuff but like i said soraka is only higher by a tiny bit , if you look at ranks below you see the difference increase. No matter how much they buff soraka or nerf thresh he will always have a higher pick rate, because thresh is more fun then Soraka. Its not even subjective its proven by statistics, I dont even think their has been a point where he has had a pickrate lower then 10% he is the funniest to play for support other then joke picks. Even if his winrate is high just ban him thats why they gave us five bans.

MalchaJul 9, 20172 votes

Yeah, Raka has 7% pick rate vs Thresh's 36.6% pick rate.

She's only showing up in 7 percent of games, which means it's more likely we're getting dedicated support/soraka players.

Thresh has a similar win-rate and is much more commonly picked. Meaning vacationers, non-thresh mains, and non support mains aren't enough to really impact his win rates.

The alternative being that those inexperienced players do have and impact and controlling form them would actually increase his win-rate beyond what's seen.

Further more, Raka is sitting at a 1.6% ban rate and Thresh is sitting at 28.6%

Thresh is literally banned more often than Soraka is played or banned. Hell if you combine Janna's 16.7% pick, and 2.2% ban, with Raka's 7% and 1.6% repectively, it still falls short of thresh's pick rate alone.

In fact based on the page you linked to, thresh's play-rate alone is greater than the combine ban/play for the three supports above him. That's a problem. His kit is destroying bot lane diversity.

SFHFWillJul 9, 20171 votes

You should use op.gg Even Rito says it's more accurate.

Thresh has an over loaded kit. If you're an aggressive support, you can use all 4 of his abilities to make aggressive plays and hard engage.

If you're defensive, you can use all 4 of his abilities to kite and break off engagements.

Very few champs in the support role can use their to fill a role on their team that their comp is lacking.

Thresh can build to be the front line tank or a back line peeler.

Janna and Soraka cannot do that.

I would say if Thresh were to get a nerf, his passive scaling might be the place to start. Or his Lantern tether range after cast.

ShablagooJul 10, 20171 votes

Ali can be a front line tank or a back line peeler, he has a knock up stun and a his headbutt. He just is a better front line because of his dmg reduction. Good janna and soraka cant, they both have great healing ults, especially soraka's ult its game changing add item 3504 and winspeakers and its huge. Janna's ult is also super game changing knocking everyone back and healing. Janna also is one of the best peeler's in the game, shield, slow, nado knock up, and her ult, she is one of the best supports in the game and has been this whole season, thresh had a time when he wasnt doing well janna hasnt not once she's literally been 51+ this whole season. Raka not only has a nice low cd heal, global heal, but also a aoe silence ever think about how amazing that is she can completely invalidate a whole team for some time and then if they stay in it they get snared.

Ah and look if you look at both of them Thresh has a high winrate against them, its basically my match up is hard so lets nerf him. He wasnt even a problem till tank support items got buffed its just a circle jerk. If your gonna nerf something nerf item 3190 because this combine with item 3193 can give a 1k shield if somone has enough health its the items not the champion.

Both Raka and Janna dont need buffs either because they are strong neither do they need nerfs. Thresh's lantern range isnt even large you can even block somone from taking it, his passive dmg isnt shouldnt be noticable to somone with heals or a shield.

SFHFWillJul 11, 20171 votes

The new Alistar sucks. It's not really as good as his old kit.

With the buffs to his R, tower diving will probably happen all day.

BlueBilberryJul 11, 20172 votes

{quoted}

The new Alistar sucks. It's not really as good as his old kit.

With the buffs to his R, tower diving will probably happen all day.

Somewhat agree. I liked the old Alistar. If you do build the current Alistar carefully though, he isn't too bad. (Not as good as the old one, but still pretty decent. Currently, he's like Rakan without the good looks and switched abilities.)

crzymdscntstJul 9, 20175 votes

Too much mobility in junction with counter-mobility. All his active skills has it built in.

Q is a hook, lets him drag himself to target while pulling enemy closer. W is swipe, counter-mobility, creating a situation where he can counteract enemy mobility. E is ally mobility, letting them move to where he is. R is a Slow box, meaning containment or counter-mobility.

That's before DPS, costs, output and stats are even factored in. He's overloaded in one way or another. That's not saying he can't stay the way he is, but it needs to be toned into manageable.

Personally I think he distinctly should stay as a support, so it's his DPS that needs pulled back.

PePsiLemoNNJul 9, 20178 votes

W is swipe, counter-mobility, creating a situation where he can counteract enemy mobility. E is ally mobility, letting them move to where he is.

Pretty sure it's the other way around lol

SenzaRespiro89Jul 9, 20175 votes

I mean you don't even know his spells. How are we supposed to take you serious?

MarshbouyJul 9, 20175 votes

Supports can't be OP lol. That's reserved to yasuo.

Fallen ArtemisJul 9, 20173 votes

I dont play Thresh that often anymore, but when i do im either really ahead or really behind. To be honest, i dont think Riot even did anything to Thresh lately, its just the support items being so strong right now. You rush a redemption on him, an item that i never would of even thought would go on a support like Thresh.

The circlejerk is going to Thresh for no reason, when in reality its the support items doing this to him. Please dont blame the champion before you look at his changes, especially when you know there have been a couple threads on the front page of this Board saying support items are overpowered or busted at the moment.

Its not Thresh that needs the nerfs, its the support items. The only change they did to Thresh lately was in 7.9 and it was a very minor buff(Increased his Magic Resist growth to 0.5 from 0.)

DanjengJul 9, 20171 votes

It's true Thresh is powerful due to items, but other tank supports, such as Alistar or Braum aren't doing as well.

Let me give you another scenario that you might feel less biased about. When Lucian was meta because of Black Cleaver and BotRK, he deserved those nerfs no? It wasn't just the items, since few other champions did as well as he did using those items. SImilarly, Thresh uses those items too well.

I see Thresh pretty often and I don't have a soft spot for supps. Most people just ignore you guys and gals, but I see what you can do. A good Thresh hook can decide a fight. Every ability in his kit is impactful actually. And I know that Thresh is picked a whole lot and does more than some other supports can do (he does practically everything). Thresh is arguably the best support in the game.

Fallen ArtemisJul 9, 20173 votes

A good Thresh hook has always been able to decide a fight, ever since his release. Its the same thing with Blitzcrank. I dont understand why people are complaining about his hook and utility now, just because there is a circlejerk on him at the moment.

And if Thresh uses those items too well, what about the top three supports right now, Janna, Sona, and Soraka? If Thresh needs to be nerfed with that logic, then those three need to be nerfed as well. But you can just avoid the nerfing of four popular supports just by nerfing the support items.

Check out the thread i just made on Gameplay about this.

GrandussJul 9, 20173 votes

Thresh doesn't need nerfs. Riot needs to look at the support role. Right now the meta is the issue. Tanks are flat out trash. People build tanky on more carry champs. Even in the LCS the only "tanks" they use are Galio, Gragas and Gnar, all of which are more carry than tank. This leads to champions like Thresh being so much better. No matter who you engage on, it's good. When tanks exsisted, Thresh wasn't good because a tank could block Thresh out.

Tl:dr Thresh is only good because tanks are bad.