AP needs to be removed from support items

Ahristocats·Apr 2, 2017·7 votes·1,797 views

Support items as whole needs a 360° rework ALONG with an enchenter rework

AP should not be in support items, Supports should not scale with AP Support should buy %shield/heal increase+CDR+armor+mr+hp+movement speed+mana/hp regen just like stats NO ONE CARES about AP when it comes to real supports, except no one is going to stack AP, no one is going to be like "i need at least 200 ap on janna" at least in high elo. It's just a waste of stats, enchenters just want %heal/shield amplification

Remove the AP, increase the MR+buff the passive heal to 450+buff the blood charges generation from 20% to 40% Remove AP+increase heal/shield amplification+reduce the cost this item needs to be reverted to what it was before, hp+cdr+lifesteal aura (10% on ranged/20% on melees) reduce the cooldown from 120 to 20 seconds, the item is 60% gold efficient it needs a strong active. the niche of this item should be countering heavy CC teams

44 Comments

MarshbouyApr 2, 201710 votes

Support items as whole needs a 360° rework

wouldn't that mean that the item would keep going in the same direction?

AhristocatsApr 2, 20171 votes

by 360° i meant that it should be completly reworked i guess my image failed

MarshbouyApr 2, 20171 votes

i assumed thats what you meant but i still want to poke fun anyways :P

Big LincolnApr 2, 20175 votes

i want ap on bard though

and i would rather have zeke's just give me % AD instead of crit chance so I can benefit from it with illaoi

CalabokApr 2, 20173 votes

LOL no

we need AP in those. Brand needs it.

LyingOnLineApr 2, 20177 votes

{quoted}

LOL no

we need AP in those. Brand needs

To get the fuck out of bottom lane.

ACENOXApr 2, 20175 votes

brand builds ardent?

Dasdi96Apr 2, 20171 votes

{quoted}

LOL no

we need AP in those. Brand needs it.

Brand is not a support

Colton147Apr 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Brand is not a support

Neither is Veigar, Vel'Koz, Miss Fortune, Zyra, Malzahar, Fiddlesticks, Kennen, etc. :)

RalanrApr 2, 20173 votes

I actually kinda agree. Lower AP on support items would prevent mages from being used as better supports (you'd only bring support annie for her CC then, not the burst damage) and it would better balance supports around just not building AP but utility items.

It would also remove the problem of supports needing AP scaling utility but having so little AP on their currently existing items. Remove the AP items from support, remove the AP scaling utility off of supports.

AhristocatsApr 2, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Remove the AP items from support, remove the AP scaling utility off of supports.

yes, and buff their utility as a compensation, utility should not scale with AP only heal/shield should scale but they have the % amplification for that

Big LincolnApr 2, 20171 votes

why though

wouldn't those be easier to balance if they were only effective at the base line?

it would kind of suck for the midlaners who have shields for allies Orianna Lux but that's never been the primary reason you pick them

AhristocatsApr 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kbK2AlJw,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2017-04-02T22:05:39.287+0000)

it would kind of suck for the midlaners who have shields for allies but that's never been the primary reason you pick them

you do know i'm talking about supports and not mages?

Big LincolnApr 2, 20171 votes

so am I?

I said why shields and heals shouldn't only have a base value, or at least the ones you can put on teammates i.e enchanters and those 2.

Wouldn't that be easier to balance, especially with the % amps that you want to buff?

AhristocatsApr 2, 20171 votes

i didn't even realise myself that i was suggesting shields/heals to scale with AP until i read again

you can make them only scaling with %heal/shield amp if you give them a strong base value however applying it for lux and ori cannot be possible because they don't buy those items

Titanium70Apr 2, 20171 votes

That's not how it works. Mages are viable Bot-Laners due to the increased Gold/s as well as the increased Gold from Objectives/Kills as well as the huge amount of Gold the StartingItems offer. If you remove the AP from Supp items the AP-Bots will just get regular AP instead while the original Supps really needing those ratios will suffer the most.

Currently Support are outscaled by mages - which leaves two options for change, you either Buff every single Supp to a point where his scalings are equaly good - you will get viable Solo-Supps out of it, or you throw Supps back into the no gold, no fun box the came from.

A thrid option would be a complet Supp-Rework adding aother stat just for Supports, but that would destroy Leagues Itemization philosophy.

Colton147Apr 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

That's not how it works. Mages are viable Bot-Laners due to the increased Gold/s as well as the increased Gold from Objectives/Kills as well as the huge amount of Gold the StartingItems offer. If you remove the AP from Supp items the AP-Bots will just get regular AP instead while the original Supps really needing those ratios will suffer the most.

Currently Support are outscaled by mages - which leaves two options for change, you either Buff every single Supp to a point where his scalings are equaly good - you will get viable Solo-Supps out of it, or you throw Supps back into the no gold, no fun box the came from.

A thrid option would be a complet Supp-Rework adding aother stat just for Supports, but that would destroy Leagues Itemization philosophy.

Mages are not viable bot lane.

Quit ruining the support role and killing off real supports like Janna, Leona, Tahm, Taric, Thresh, Nami, etc.

Shubham SharmaApr 2, 20172 votes

Pls man lol this is a stupid idea, heals and shields also scale off AP, buying legit support builds is important, but if you remove AP from support items that's not stopping Janna from buying 6 death caps

AhristocatsApr 2, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Pls man lol this is a stupid idea, heals and shields also scale off AP,

which is why you should increase the heal/shield amplification?

Shubham SharmaApr 3, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kbK2AlJw,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-04-02T21:23:58.675+0000)

which is why you should increase the heal/shield amplification?

or how about this, you're stupid*[slayer-jinx-catface]*

chipndip1Apr 2, 20172 votes

Rubick this idea is fucking awful...

Tank supports don't have innate shields/heals. This would make Enchanters even stronger in comparison to tank supports.
This would just make Redemption + Locket EVEN STRONGER as a combo.
Aren't enchanters supposed to be...ya know..."squishy"? If I play a "Priest" in an RPG, why would he buy the same gear as my supportive tank class and then be better than him? Sounds stupid, but this is actually what's happening in LoL right now. If anything, we need more support items that offer ap, not less.

AhristocatsApr 2, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Tank supports don't have innate shields/heals. This would make Enchanters even stronger in comparison to tank supports.

Tank supports need their own buff as they all suck with the exception of thresh while still sitting at 48% win rate since his release

{quoted}

This would just make Redemption + Locket EVEN STRONGER as a combo.

Who said that redemption and locket won't be nerfed?

{quoted}

Aren't enchanters supposed to be...ya know..."squishy"?

athene was always way to go to counter mages, it used to give more MR until riot nerfed it if the AP is removed i don't see an issue with buffing the mr back

chipndip1Apr 2, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kbK2AlJw,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2017-04-02T22:34:39.910+0000)

Tank supports need their own buff as they all suck with the exception of thresh while still sitting at 48% win rate since his release

That's probably the tank update, where tank values on items decrease and innate champ tank stats are adjusted accordingly.

Who said that redemption and locket won't be nerfed?

If you nerf this play style of "Building heals/shields/tank stats because it's the best thing we can build" without anything to properly fill that void, nothing is accomplished besides nerfing the role. People just gotta realize that it isn't making room for ap in support itemization that's the issue more than not committing to it all that well that's the issue.

athene was always way to go to counter mages, it used to give more MR until riot nerfed it if the AP is removed i don't see an issue with buffing the mr back

Athene's was never a mage "counter item". It was a more defensive alternative Morello in the mid lane. Riot realized that we'll always go for more damage, and thus Athene's will always be overshadowed, so they retooled it into a damage/defense hybrid support item. New problem is that supports don't build the ap to stack more than 50 stacks into it before using it in most instances, so it's fucking useless. If we made it give a shit ton of MR...what the fuck is this item going to do? We still wouldn't have the damage to stack the passive, so it'd need a new passive anyway, and with Crucible existing as a pure MR/Heal Power Chalice item already, you might as well delete the item.

You know what I'm tired of? People being so rigid about the support role and what should be in it, only to say "double jg Smite Nunu is perfectly fine and I'd have a beer with that guy". Like, if that guy can be circle-jerked, why are people so afraid of fucking support Brand? Why can't we have different types of support items that address the different types of supports we see, rather than shoving the same stats down everyone's throats regardless of what type of champ you are? Like I've been saying: Is an RPG any good if two different classes wear the exact same gear to optimum efficiency?

AhristocatsApr 2, 20171 votes

{quoted}

If you nerf this play style of "Building heals/shields/tank stats because it's the best thing we can build" without anything to properly fill that void, nothing is accomplished besides nerfing the role.

except that if you nerf redemption+solari while buffing the others YOU WONT RUSH THOSE 2 ITEMS FIRST you will uild ardent for example if you have a lot of AA based champ or mikael if there are too much cc

get it?

{quoted}

Athene's was never a mage "counter item". It was a more defensive alternative Morello in the mid lane. Riot realized that we'll always go for more damage, and thus Athene's will always be overshadowed, so they retooled it into a damage/defense hybrid support item. New problem is that supports don't build the ap to stack more than 50 stacks into it before using it in most instances, so it's fucking useless. If we made it give a shit ton of MR...what the fuck is this item going to do? We still wouldn't have the damage to stack the passive, so it'd need a new passive anyway, and with Crucible existing as a pure MR/Heal Power Chalice item already, you might as well delete the item.

read above i suggested increasing the generation of stacks

{quoted}

You know what I'm tired of? People being so rigid about the support role and what should be in it, only to say "double jg Smite Nunu is perfectly fine and I'd have a beer with that guy". Like, if that guy can be circle-jerked, why are people so afraid of fucking support Brand?

i don't care about support brand, idgaf about it and never even talked about it in the entire thread

chipndip1Apr 3, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kbK2AlJw,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-02T23:17:18.945+0000)

except that if you nerf redemption+solari while buffing the others YOU WONT RUSH THOSE 2 ITEMS FIRST you will uild ardent for example if you have a lot of AA based champ or mikael if there are too much cc

Idk, man. Making every single item give nothing but heal/shield/defenses sounds like a horrible idea. That just makes individual support champs even less "champs" and more "item mules".

read above i suggested increasing the generation of stacks

So you make it insanely easy to generate stacks, then? The point is that this item is supposed to become better as you build items that increase damage output. Do more damage, heal more damage. If you take out the concept of "doing more damage", you never do enough damage to justify this item's existence over other things you could build. Why build this heal over any other healing/shielding item if you can't actively play into its potential well?

i don't care about support brand, idgaf about it and never even talked about it in the entire thread

The part of that last paragraph that was important was the part you didn't respond to. The point is that we could make support items that cater to different styles of supports to make the role more fun instead of trying to force all supports into the same corner. Support champs aren't "support" champs by class. They're varied sub-classes of champs that we look at and identify as the primary champs to use in the support role, yet support itemization looks at all these champs and groups them together without discrimination. This is like saying "Tank Yasuo was perfectly balanced and fine because all top laners should be tanks", but just doing it for support.

VoraciousXApr 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

That's probably the tank update, where tank values on items decrease and innate champ tank stats are adjusted accordingly.

If you nerf this play style of "Building heals/shields/tank stats because it's the best thing we can build" without anything to properly fill that void, nothing is accomplished besides nerfing the role. People just gotta realize that it isn't making room for ap in support itemization that's the issue more than not committing to it all that well that's the issue.

Athene's was never a mage "counter item". It was a more defensive alternative Morello in the mid lane. Riot realized that we'll always go for more damage, and thus Athene's will always be overshadowed, so they retooled it into a damage/defense hybrid support item. New problem is that supports don't build the ap to stack more than 50 stacks into it before using it in most instances, so it's fucking useless. If we made it give a shit ton of MR...what the fuck is this item going to do? We still wouldn't have the damage to stack the passive, so it'd need a new passive anyway, and with Crucible existing as a pure MR/Heal Power Chalice item already, you might as well delete the item.

You know what I'm tired of? People being so rigid about the support role and what should be in it, only to say "double jg Smite Nunu is perfectly fine and I'd have a beer with that guy". Like, if that guy can be circle-jerked, why are people so afraid of fucking support Brand? Why can't we have different types of support items that address the different types of supports we see, rather than shoving the same stats down everyone's throats regardless of what type of champ you are? Like I've been saying: Is an RPG any good if two different classes wear the exact same gear to optimum efficiency?

I always built athenes because I knew it'd give me more damage vs them than they could vs me. It pretty much worked almost every time as well. Not to mention the % mana heal was awesome for my spell spamming playstyle. That's why I'm salty af they moved it to a support item.

As for giving more heal+shield % amplification. Enchanters are pretty much the only thing being played right now, and have been ridiculous since this monstrosity was introduced item 3107 and this monstrosity was reworked item 3190 . Do you know how much % heal shield amp you can have right now? 50%. No one who even has AP scalings on their shields and heals right now are even using them because the % amp is that much stronger. They're also given more health and defensive stats than they were when they did have to build AP for their heals and shields making them that much harder to pop while also making their allies have health bars worth of heals and shields(or them if you try to go for them). The fact that so many people are talking about enchanters needing more love than they've gotten pretty much every other patch(minus a few small nerfs, for example redemption and Karma), while tank supports are completely left unmentioned, underplayed, or forced to build the same exact items as enchanters despite them not having any heals or shields(Except Taric and Alistar, but you don't play Ali for his healing, same for Taric really kinda) makes this even more ridiculous. Heal/Shield amplification is ridiculous and we don't need 100% heal+shield amp every game. I'd rather not see 4000 HP bars in shields or 2000 HP Redemptions 800 Raka heals from items that also give them HP and defensive stats making them basically have no weaknesses(since the actual weakness on champions that are meant to do this is supposed to be that you pop them first so they can't do it anymore). You can get 40% CDR pretty much JUST off of the current heal+shield amp items and they already basically give you 4 item 3070 passive worth in mana regen.

The Last BalladApr 2, 20171 votes

Tank supports don't have innate shields/heals. This would make Enchanters even stronger in comparison to tank supports.

Excuse me? I'm not sure I heard you correctly...

Stoneborn? Courage of the Colossus? Alistar passive? Blitzcrank passive? Nautilus w? Nunu q? TahmKench e? Taric q&w? Thresh w?

And how many of these scale off of ap? Nunu and Taric's Q, which also scales off his max health.

And how many don't get boosted by % heal? None of them. They all benefit from Redemption's % heal amp.

chipndip1Apr 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Last Ballad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kbK2AlJw,comment-id=00080001,timestamp=2017-04-02T22:58:29.986+0000)

Excuse me? I'm not sure I heard you correctly...

Stoneborn? Courage of the Colossus? passive? passive? w? q? e? q&w? w?

Alright, correction: Tank supports don't base that much of their play style around healing/shielding allies, even if they have a shield/heal that isn't selfish as fuck.

meowwow7Apr 3, 20171 votes

do you really think alistar's passive does noticeable healing through his passive mid game? blitz naut nunu and tahm can only do it to themselves unless through certain items and taric's heal drains more mana than a karthus e toggled on for 4 seconds the only 2 skills on here that would benefit from this is taric and thresh's w

ChargeItDownMidApr 2, 20171 votes

[deleted]

RalanrApr 2, 20173 votes

It's hard to really make it competitive when enchanters are basically unable to compete.

ChargeItDownMidApr 2, 20171 votes

[deleted]

RalanrApr 3, 20171 votes

Usually it's just one or two that may get very strong. Rather than the class.

ChargeItDownMidApr 3, 20171 votes

[deleted]

RalanrApr 3, 20172 votes

Yet people will blame the class and not the champion.

The Last BalladApr 2, 20171 votes

Mages? Zyra Zilean Velkoz check. Bruisers? Trundle Camille check. Marksmen? Ashe MissFortune check.

Seriously, we have other archetypes going into the only role Enchanters are allowed in(see Lulu, Soraka, Janna, and Karma solo lane nerfs). Surely they deserve somewhere to exist!

hi im bannnedApr 2, 20171 votes

well i see the point, it makes sense in a way by replacing it. but why would the current state of the game need it?

khorneyApr 2, 20171 votes

yah becuase making your shiled stronger and heal stronger is bad.....

FrightningApr 3, 20171 votes

Many of the current enchanters have AP scaling utility, they want AP too.

The problem w/ utility itemization right now is that the basic stats on utility items atm are mish-mash of the most random-ass stat combos you can imagine. Coupled with mediocre numbers to offset the gold value of the utility effects (usually active is where most of that is), AND their cheap items because supports are supposedly hamstrung for gold (not by much in reality since season 4 gold-flow changes hit the support role).

Riot's also been eager to nerf utility whenever it starts showing up outside of the support position because of the belief that if utility is viable in other positions, then it will crowd out alternatives because of the superior team synergy offered. I think that line of thought is as antiquated as it is mistaken. In modern LoL, teams spend a lot of their time with at least 1-2 members 2000+ units away doing things elsewhere on the map (especially outside of siege/wombo comps which are meant to work as a 5-man squad; and where I would expect utility to be especially strong)...and for reasons that don't disappear just because your combo benefits more from being together as a 5-man unit than before (lane pressure and wave manipulation are vital aspects to the game now). Moreover, it's still quite possible to give meaningful tradeoffs for more 'selfish' items. Such as lower cost, better stats, or other effects that benefit you in solo situations more than those utility effects would.

What I think needs to be done: -Focus basic stat selection on utility items to better reflect the combat stats desired by their intended users (intended archetypes to be clear) -Buff/rework utility champs (and pure tanks ability) to make solo plays, even if you need to nerf certain other aspects of their designs (this is a common pain point for people that end up having to play these roles; the feeling that they can't make an impact unless their allies are on the same page as them...a problem damage dealers simply don't have to deal with).

Colton147Apr 3, 20171 votes

All in all, I am getting sick of people taking mages and non-supports to the support role. They are killing off the real supports (Janna, Nami, Leona, etc.) by doing that.

It is time to punish those who do that, as they are ruining the support role and killing off all true supports.

Yuzuki YukarinApr 3, 20171 votes

The things about Sona are a completely separate issue altogether. She has the worst AP scalings of all enchanters, so she factually benefits the least. Then, removing AP from support items doesn't matter to Sona, because she has to build non-support items to prevent her existence from being the liability it is. Support items actually function comparably poorly on Sona due to her lack of utility, melee-range spells and having the actual weakest healing in the game. Hence why she has to build non-support to cheese with damage, but not just any random non-support AP items, noooo. She specifically needs artificially scaling AP items, because (as previously stated) her own AP scalings are shit and so are her bases as well.

While removing AP from support items will fix a lot of issues with support as a class, it will literally do nothing towards making Sona a playable character.

MatyezdaFeb 9, 20181 votes

There are supports that need AP. Another example is Lux. (know she isn't a true support,but she is often played in that role- great CC, acceptable shielding) or Morgana. Her E is a shield, that scales 70 percent with her AP. Trust me,you want ardent censer,Athene, and some kind of AP item on her