If adc items are going to be nerfed...

Eyesack·May 30, 2018·34 votes·14,106 views

You will have to nerf guinsoos as well.

I cant see this not being the case, if not on the same patch then in some future patch.

I mean if you think about it the adc nerf is supposed to push the powerspike from 2 items to 3. The most competitive adcs after will be the ones that still do good damage at 2 items via guinsoos/runaan or guinsoo/nashor spike.

What youll see will be pretty much ezreal obviously remaining dominant and then champs like kaisa kog varus etc flooding the meta

83 Comments

Warlord RhinarkMay 30, 201812 votes

Agreed.

Guinsoo's doesn't make the game fun at all.

BLIGHTBRINGERMay 30, 20185 votes

But it's the only item that makes some champions viable in certain roles...

In this case my champion, Varus in the Bot Lane. He is already sitting at a 48.66% Winrate.

Instead of nerfing the item itself that would nerf those champions who are already somewhat underperforming, why not just nerf the other individuals that abuse it and are quite overperforming?

Pierce The VealMay 30, 20184 votes

No no no, boards has said it has to go, so it has to go!

Frankly, you should just ignore boards’ opinion on this. They just whine about anything and everything that isn’t their standard adc mage meta game.

saltranMay 30, 20181 votes

Lmao imagine Varus without Rageblade, with lethality build not viable due to Q nerfs so forced to go on a nerfed crit build. He would be pretty useless.

BLIGHTBRINGERMay 30, 20181 votes

Feelsbadman

SalsonMay 30, 20181 votes

But it's the only item that makes some champions viable in certain roles...

That is not actually healthy. It's rather that Guinsoos needs nerfs, and Varus gets compensation buffs. He would then get to choose between Guinsoos, Crit, Reaver or even Lethality.

BLIGHTBRINGERMay 30, 20181 votes

When you put it like that, I agree because without any compensation buffs and if the item would be removed he would simply drop to the lowest tier marksman.

Jerry SeinfeIdMay 30, 20181 votes

wouldn't you be more interested in playing lethality again? i feel like that's a much more satisfying playstyle.

saltranMay 30, 20181 votes

Lethality was killed with the Q cd nerfs, isn't a viable playstyle anymore.

BLIGHTBRINGERMay 30, 20181 votes

I wouldn't mind any playstyle as long as it would make him viable. If the proposed changes (removing Rageblade) would come live, then neither of these 3 playstyles will be good; Critical Strike (which is already bad), On-hit (which is bad without Rageblade), AP (which is still okay without Rageblade but not as effective), and Poke with Lethality (which is quite weak because of the nerfs to Q and healing and shielding makes Poking with Q useless without any penetrating damage, not to mention Q Poke is really bad against Tanks).

I hope that makes sense lol, I didn't structure that well enough.

Jerry SeinfeIdMay 30, 20181 votes

he'd need stat changes either way ofcourse. I guess ap kinda plays like lethality. I just think it's kinda dumb to make his abilities secondary to his auto's.

Bob the ToastrMay 30, 20181 votes

If the only reason a champion is viable is one particular item then that's not terribly healthy for that champion. Same way that the new rune system was supposed to give us more "choices" but for many champions there's really only one keystone that's best on them and all the rest are subpar on them (Ex. Predator Hecarim, Klepto Ez or GP, etc.)

Anu3isIIMay 30, 20185 votes

Why not buff the champions so they don't depend on a broken item and nerf the broken item?

Your Varus used to be a great champion without this item for seasons. He had a versatile build path. Now, those builds are bad simply because of the many targeted nerfs to his play styles.

I would agree with you about nerfing the abusers if they were a minority, but I believe the item is simply overbearing for all its users. Heck, Varus was one of the top ADCs because of this item alongside KogMaw (another "abuser") and Tristana . This item simply breaks the game...

BLIGHTBRINGERMay 30, 20182 votes

I began playing him during mid season 5 up until this point, and from my experience for playing him this long, he definitely feels better now then before.

Back then he was still one of the most relatively weak Marksman, he had no; burst (as most marksman did back then), his abilities themselves did no damage (since some scale with AP or AD) besides Q which it's damage was not mindblowing big anyway.

Varus feels like a complex champion who is struggling with the identity (after the lore changes). His Q is the only iconic ability that he has, his W Blight is a unique passive/ability that ~~no other marksman have like~~ ( Kaisa being an exception being able to pop her Plasma stacks with her W). The Blight part of the corruption that he spreads is not mentioned anywhere during the massive lore update but I understand why it's kept (it's the best part about his kit).

I feel like Kaisa in particular ruined everything that felt unique/good about Varus (outside the CC part), she does almost everything that Varus does but better...

Positives of Kai'Sa :

Has better/reliable mixed damage with better AD/AP scallings.
Able to Poke better with her W (even better with her evolved W), since a lot of the cooldown is refunded if you hit an enemy (Varus was able to poke just as well with his Q until Riot nerfed it where they increased the cooldown of his Q). Kai'Sa's W cooldown at rank 1 is only 2 seconds higher than Varus's Q and the range difference is HUGE (Kai'Sa's W = 3000 / Varus Q = 925 - 1625 based on channel time). While Varus's Q pierces through all units, depending how many it goes through the damage is reduced for each hit unit which essentially nullifies the damage.
Her build path flexibility is massive and the effectiveness of each build is unbelievable (when comparing build flexibility and effectiveness when it comes to Varus). She can literally build anything not worrying about it because all of her abilities scale with both AD and AP (Varus's abilities don't have dual scallings like that), not to mention all of her playstyles are all equally strong whether it's (Full AP, On-Hit, Critical Strike).

Varus only has one remaining build path left that is useful/effective/reliable (Full AP + On-Hit).

Critical Strike is bad because none of his abilities could amplify that sort of playstyle (like Tristana E, Caitlyn Passive, Vayne Q) even Critical Strike on Kai'Sa is good because it meants the larger the Crit she hits the more damage the proc on her Plasma stacks will do.
Full On-Hit is bad on him without AP (since W Passive damage was nerfed).
Full AP is bad without Attack Speed (since you need to apply Blight stacks for damage to take place and without AS you won't live long enough to apply that damage).

She synergizes so well with literally any support that has CC (who help stack her passive Plasma stacks) making her early game really effective.

Negatives of Kai'Sa :

She has no Crowd Control to provide her team.
Doesn't have a damaging ultimate ability?
(add your suggestions, as I can't think of any).

Sorry for the lenghty post, but those are just my thoughts (Btw I didn't hope to make this a complain comment, I simply just wanted to show that Kai'Sa just feels like a perfected Varus in a strange way).

Anu3isIIMay 31, 20182 votes

Don't worry about length, posts should be more like yours.

While I agree with you that Varus is in a tough spot, I disagree with the idea that he has no identity.

I believe his identity was clear when he used to build like an AD caster (Lucidity Boots, Manamune, Yomumu's, Last Whisper, Maw). The only "weird" part of his kit was his Passive, which provided Attack Speed to a character that snipes you from 1000+ Range.

Due to targeted nerfs at his Q, the change to Last Whisper and somewhat delayed effectivenes of Lethality (compared to Armor Pen) it resulted in the loss of his unique build and Play Style. He was a Supportive AD Sniper that provided lots of poke damage, utility and waveclear, and had high DPS in teamfights through his abilities. He brings advantages that Jayce and Ezreal would dream to have.

Here I comment a bit about your list:

Imo, Varus has better AD scalings than Kai'sa and he has them on his basic long Range abilities, while Kai'sa has on a close target nuke (and her Ultimate shield). I can't talk about their AP scaling, as I'm not entirely accustomed to them. I agree with you that she has more reliable Damage.
Range, CD and Damage aren't the only factors in deciding the effectiveness of a Poke ability. The piercing effect is pretty much invaluable, as most tanks would simply absorb your ability, taking little to no damage compared to a carry. In teamfights it is much more valuable to have an AoE ability than a one-target skillshot nuke, unless you catch a carry out of position. Second thing is missle speed. Varus Q is one one the fastest skillshots in the game, making his poke incredibly reliable by giving the opponents little time to react. Shooting behind walls or bushes leads to an almost invisible arrow for the opponent. That is the main reason why I think Riot nerfed his Full-AD build.
I totally agree. I hope that his new W active and the comeback of Last Whisper will at least make AD Varus viable.
While indirectly, Varus does have synergy with CC monsters. His abilities deal a ton of damage when landing, and after 6, he and his support will murder you. I remember people playing in season 3 Varus with Leona bot and they were literally a kill lane.

I agree with the negatives, the only thing I would add is that only her W is long ranged and that she has lower AA Range than most champions, making her susceptible to long Range Poke. In contrast, Varus has higher than average Range and all his abilities are long Ranged, making him pretty safe in this department.

Overall, I believe Kai'sa is simply better than current Varus because both of them depend on their AAs too much. I believe Riot should look at his kit and try to further enchant his niche of an AD Caster.

BLIGHTBRINGERMay 31, 20181 votes

Thank you for your response. I agree with all your points that you made.

By the way if you have time I madea post where I wrote similar things, and suggestions where he could use improvement.

You don't have to read the whole thing but feedback on the suggestions that I had would be much appreciated.

https://www.reddit.com/r/VarusMains/comments/8ndh8i/thoughts_after_playing_varus_for_35_years_good/

(It's suppose to be 3.5 years lol not 35)

Anu3isIIMay 31, 20181 votes

I wish I could say I read it (heh), but it got removed... I guess Reddit mods really suck.

BLIGHTBRINGERMay 31, 20181 votes

Wow. I only just noticed. Screw them ._,

I can still view the post myself so here:

Suggestions/Improvements Passive: Living Vengeance

I feel that his new future Passive should have some sort of intractability with Blight or when detonating Blight stacks.
If the Passive would be to kept the same as well as the current nerfed values, it would need to have a longer duration, or to revert the nerfs to his passive values.

W: Blighted Quiver

I think his E would need to receive some sort of empowerment like his Q if it would be kept like in it's current form in the future (having any of the following effects: Increasing the slow? Increasing the zone? Longer zone duration? Zone that applies continuously 2 stacks of Blight every second?).

E: Hail of Arrows

Make the casting of this ability possibly shorter (it feels that it takes too long to cast it, to the point where opponents can take advantage of that to get a free AA or 2 AA),
Potentially removing Grievous Wounds to have an effect that actually feels impactful (open for effect suggestions).
Making the Slow 45% at all ranks to have a better chance of getting away early (if proven to be too strong of a buff, something can be changed to compensate).

no to toxicMay 30, 20184 votes

Imagine writing something this stupid and then deciding to post it

Flavi KangMay 31, 20182 votes

It's the boards, where you try to talk sense and get downvoted to hell.

I only come to the boards to have a laugh at all the stupid stuff people write in here, like that post at the top.

Its amazing how kids suddenly think they are balance experts and should be listened to without any question, when they have no clue how the game works.

BernMay 30, 20182 votes

The ad nerf pushes powerspikes from two items to one item, not two to three.

Ain't no one buying IE first (or second, for that matter, unless you're desperately behind). Have you -seen- Stormrazor and the new ER? Have you seen that BoRK is now 3200? Those are absolutely one item powerspikes.

MLDzXnRRRMay 30, 20184 votes

Bork doesn't deal dmg until lategame. Are you going to play vs 5 Mundos on the enemy team?

SpankyhamsMay 30, 201815 votes

BoTRK is absolutely a one item wonder. It gives an ADC everything they need. Damage, Attack Speed, Sustain. Storm Razor is great when paired with BoTRK but kinda meh by itself.

Pierce The VealMay 30, 20182 votes

Its biggest advantage is countering thornmail.

saltranMay 30, 201814 votes

So BoTRK counters Ashe? /s

Mr Bruce SwainMay 30, 201820 votes

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/rwby/images/c/c4/Steve-rogers-i-understood-that-reference.jpg

Infernal IronicMay 30, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Bork doesn't deal dmg until lategame. Are you going to play vs 5 Mundos on the enemy team?

Lucian ll definetly rush it cant speak for the rest

Romans VI XXIIIMay 30, 20181 votes

LMFAO. You do know that %HP damage deals the same % regardless of health pool or time in game. It as a stand alone item is actually stronger early game than late, as the %HP deals the same, but the AD and AS are more relevant on smaller HP pools (early to mid game)

AirKingNeoMay 30, 20182 votes

You will have to nerf guinsoos as well.

Randomly nerf Kayle because Varus's passive works with temporary attack speed and Kai'sa is already broken?

Just think that one through for a bit.

Rathar DashingMay 31, 20182 votes

I think it's worth it to nerf Rageblade in order to nerf Varus/Kai'Sa/Kog'Maw and most importantly Master Yi. An item should be balanced for all champions, not just Kayle.

AirKingNeoMay 31, 20181 votes

But Yi isn't a problem. Kog'Maw isn't a problem.

Kai'Sa is a problem, but Rageblade isn't causing it.

Varus: literally make his passive not work with temporary attack speed.

EDIT: Literally look at Yi's stats and tell me he's a problem. https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/masteryi/jungle/diamond

FurriesAreHotMay 31, 20183 votes

Yi’s passive and Guinsoos allows him to deal absurd amounts of damage in the blink of an eye. Multiple times. To multiple characters. Regardless of armor or health.

AirKingNeoMay 31, 20181 votes

Except Yi's ganks are terrible and his siege is terrible. Yi brings nothing to a team.

That's why he's got a sub 45% winrate, sub 5% pickrate. https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/masteryi/jungle/diamond

FurriesAreHotMay 31, 20183 votes

You completely look over the fact he is literally the poster child of runnin down entire teams on his own.

AirKingNeoMay 31, 20181 votes

not viable, not a problem

FurriesAreHotMay 31, 20182 votes

He is viable in tiers lower than diamond. And he runs through entire teams.

AirKingNeoMay 31, 20181 votes

why would you ever balance a game around bad players?

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/masteryi

even 50 sub winrate in gold+

Rathar DashingMay 31, 20183 votes

Oh, balance the game around the majority of the player base? Why would anyone do that!

FurriesAreHotMay 31, 20181 votes

Let's not act like Diamond is any better than Gold.

PrinceOfStormsJun 1, 20181 votes

He's also viable in masters/challenger, have you not seen the taric/yi cheese that's everywhere in China?

Daddy AntsMay 30, 20181 votes

No one builds BOTRK now except for Twitch.

That's not gonna change.

They fucked the item up during the mini rework, it was better when the AS was higher.

D357R0Y3RMay 30, 20181 votes

ezreal kalista

saltranMay 30, 20185 votes

So only Ezreal

BEK MakadurMay 30, 20181 votes

It would be better if it would deal magic dmg.

Automated RivenMay 31, 20181 votes

Not true. There used to be an item which was basically the same thing. (iirc called maldreds bloodrazer) and it had 4% max HP on hit Nobody purchased it because it was considered a noob trap. By the time you factored in MR the damage was lower then wits end.

The only champion who ever got it was kogmaw. And that was purely a novelty because you got 12% (again, iirc) max hp instead of 8. However other items where simply better.

HàrrowRMay 30, 20183 votes

Lucian,Vayne,Kog,Kalista,Varus,Ez,hell,even ashe is good with it

BestPudgeNAMay 30, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You will have to nerf guinsoos as well.

I cant see this not being the case, if not on the same patch then in some future patch.

I mean if you think about it the adc nerf is supposed to push the powerspike from 2 items to 3. The most competitive adcs after will be the ones that still do good damage at 2 items via guinsoos/runaan or guinsoo/nashor spike.

What youll see will be pretty much ezreal obviously remaining dominant and then champs like kaisa kog varus etc flooding the meta

Whelp patch notes out the buffed ADC and nerfed JG again. I'm out this game is retarded

saltranMay 30, 20182 votes

...

Automated RivenMay 31, 20182 votes

Wait wat?? How the hell did this patch just buff adc's?

BestPudgeNAMay 31, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kaYbLmOX,comment-id=000c0001,timestamp=2018-05-31T01:58:46.843+0000)

Wait wat?? How the hell did this patch just buff adc's?

IMO Buffs They Buffed AD scaling more heavily then they nerfed starting AD= Buff 1 They Buffed HP more then the loss of Armor= Buff 2 Even if you combine both and say regen is down well it's still a buff to base stats overall. BoTRK+Bloodthirster prices down = Buff 3 New ER is better= Buff 4 Stormrazor New item for ADCS =buff 5 NEW IE is a buff, IDK what people on these boards says. It's a worse first item, but buying a zeal item first was already correct and IE is better at 2 items now = Buff 6 Getting a 8th keystone= Buff 7

IMO Nerfs Zeal item cost up 300. Which frankly isn't enough. The best scaling items in the game shouldn't be under 3k it's just fucking dumb = Nerf 1, hell lets even call this nerf 1+2. GA changes = Nerf 3 FFW healing/movement = Nerf 4

IMO Power neutral changes LW item changes.

The irony of these changes is the one legitimate complaint ADCs have is that supports dictate too much of their lane phase, these changes all give support more influence on the early lane phase and give ADCs even more toxic of a stranglehold on mid/late game agency.