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Dynamique queue will NEVER be a true ladder experience

Eyesack··235 votes·6,536 views

It won't. It cannot be. You're shoving premades and solo players onto the same ladder, and by doing this you have made each player's elo WORTHLESS. A silver level player can EASILY get carried to diamond if he has 3-4 pals to carry him there. And if he plays games with his now-diamond mmr he will RUIN the game for 4 other people. If you don't think that's a problem, you (looking at you riot) are an idiot.

Each player's mmr no longer matters as of s6. There's too many variables now. You can't look at 2 player's mmr and justifiably say who is the better solo queue player. One could have higher mmr than the other just by getting carried by his friends. Dynamic queue therefore has made mmr meaningless. It means nothing.

How do we make dynamic queue a true ladder experience? Quite simply, you can't. By its very nature you're combining several different queues into one mmr. Which is unbelievably stupid. 'But now you can play ranked with your frandssss'. NO. THERE IS NO RANKED ANYMORE. IF THE LADDER IS MEANINGLESS, IT IS NOT RANKED.

So basically this is riot's logic: we want to allow you to play with your friends (something you could already do in normal games) but they wanted it to be ranked experience (which we also already had with teambuilder). But they wanted it to be easy for the player. You could queue as 1, 2, 3, 4, even 5 players all in the same ladder, all with the same mmr. Yea? Well, in doing so, ranked has been destroyed. Now there are just 2 versions of normal draft queue, one just happens to have meaningless divisions attached to with some meaningless rewards.

There is no ranked play anymore. You want a real, fair, meaningful competitive experience? Go play a different game.

EDIT: na spelling.

166 Comments

ZsakbaMacska30 votes

I agree with you man, this game sucks in terms of matchmaking, yesterday i was playing duoq with my friend we are at the same skill level with same elo(last season both of us were plats, but in our team we had a silver4 hecarim because he was duo with his gold1 friend, he was boosting him, however we lost due to hecarim got punished for his awful engages which wouldnt be punished in silver4 but in gold1 and plat5 it does get punished. Also Last season individual skills were really important, now i feel everyone get to gold because, of the free win in promo, you can q up as 3 4 people and get carried by your friend, however if you q up as solo or duo you rely on the majority. i am thinking of quiting and start playing dota.

Jorencice2 votes

A silver 4 can't play with gold 1

Jbels34 votes

{quoted}

A silver 4 can't play with gold 1

Yes they can

ZsakbaMacska10 votes

He can, you can duo as a gold player with silver player or plat player the division doesn't matter.

DracosKasu1 votes

You can queue up as a gold with a plat or a silver but you cant have a plat/silver in the team at the same time.

Dar Raksada4 votes

{quoted}

You can queue up as a gold with a plat or a silver but you cant have a plat/silver in the team at the same time.

I used to have a ranked team with a diamond, a plat (me), two silvers and a gold. Now we can't play together in ranked anymore. Dynamic queue is preventing me from playing with friends in ranked.

Shadragon2 votes

{quoted} i am thinking of quiting and start playing dota.

Good luck with that. Dota's been dying of the premade cancer for years now. It's even worse over there since if you're teamed up with a 4 stack and they all decide to report you, you automatically get punished for it, putting you in low priority queue for X amount of games, where you are guaranteed to run into more 4 stacks who will rage and feed and blame you, and the cycle continues endlessly.

DeathToEcchi17 votes

Solo queue in a team game will never be a TRUE ladder experience either.....

Only Play Darius9 votes

It will never be the best ladder experience (now that we have champ grades I think we should get slight LP/MMR adjusts based on personal performance, getting an S on the losing team/ C on the winning team should mean something) but it was a hell of a lot better than ranked 4's where the solo players are left out of the loop and don't have any friends willing to help them out.

Maszii2 votes

Everyone will turn into a KDA player

Only Play Darius8 votes

I have found that the grade system checks much more than KDA. You need to roam, take objectives, ward, and CS properly to get an S grade.

It Hertz When IP4 votes

^^

Went 6/1/4 as Ziggs against a team that FF'ed at the 25m mark, still didn't get S because I screwed up my CSing midgame and wasn't around to help secure most of the objective. Also didn't ward much.

XIII Vanitas2 votes

KDA isn't the only factor that matters. If it weighed too much, Riot could shift some points from it to objectives taken and vision control. Anyways, I don't see anything wrong in players trying to get more kills and assists while avoiding useless deaths.

Mazariamonti14 votes

I don't know, I climbed out of silver and into gold V at about the same rate as I did the last two seasons. I assume that's where I belong since I win at about the same rate whether I have a 3+ premade or if I'm solo. Idk I just feel like people are using this as an excuse for losing games when the reality is that most players are probably exactly where they are supposed to be.

Jasiwel9 votes

I agree with this argument. I think people aren't even considering the fact that old SoloQ was not that great. It was hardly a real ladder experience, especially if you were like me and played StarCraft2 for two years before even trying League of Legends. The key difference is that W/L is far more comprehensive in a 1v1 scenario than a 5v5 scenario where everyone sees themselves as Solo players. In SC2, you could look at your ladder for a general clue as to who you may end up facing in your MMR, but in LoL seeing the people around you in your division is completely pointless.

For a true ladder experience to work in LoL, Riot would have to weaken the LP gain/loss from W/L and place greater importance on personal statistics in each game. While theoretically the stat spread to LP conversion could be a decent implementation, the fact that League is a total melting pot of variables that influence stats radically every game means this system would have to be revolutionary. Sure, I make an impact in games I win, but in the new system you'd be pitted against everyone else in those regards. People would complain the system is too harsh and judgmental, requiring too much dedication to proceed.

The thing is that, until Riot develops a system that judges you on your personal stats every game rather than basing most of your LP gain on whether you win or lose, League's Ranked will simply not be a true ladder system.

I don't even know if a true Ladder system would work well in League. There is so much complexity involved with the game, with 10 players and all the statistical variables that need to be accounted for, so it's not remotely as simple as everyone demands. If it isn't implemented flawlessly, then we'll have literally the same upheaval we have now on the Boards.

Maszii2 votes

Personal stats in game would then turn into KDA heroes.

Jasiwel3 votes

Sorry, I should have clarified. By stats I meant Damage Dealt, CS, Objectives (Turrets, Dragon, etc), Wards; contributions to the team in terms of statistics. K/D/A can be indicative, but we all know it doesn't tell everything.

slipstreem3 votes

Numerous Rioters have said that that sort of system will never happen.

They don't want anything detrimental to happen to a player who picks support or jungle or a tanky top or lissandra and then makes the proper team move to engage a fight in which they will likely die which ruins their kda or damage dealt or gpm even though their team wins the fight and maybe the game. If you got less LP because you picked rammus and went 1/7/17 in a win than you did for picking shaco and going 14/3/4 in a win but did gobs more damage, that just wouldn't be fair.

People would never want to play certain champions because they would get less LP just by how the champion plays based on which stats rito is awarding LP for.

Jasiwel3 votes

Yup, exactly. I think people just want to find a scapegoat wherever possible over taking the conceivable responsibility of their own mistakes. I'm not saying Dynamic Queue is perfect nor do I remotely think this Season is in a wonderful state, but to be honest I have not been able to tell much of a difference between the bullshit from old SoloQ and the potential bullshit we may experience near.

Urgonnalearn2day3 votes

{quoted}

Yup, exactly. I think people just want to find a scapegoat wherever possible over taking the conceivable responsibility of their own mistakes. I'm not saying Dynamic Queue is perfect nor do I remotely think this Season is in a wonderful state, but to be honest I have not been able to tell much of a difference between the bullshit from old SoloQ and the potential bullshit we may experience near.

I don't think it's a win more or less... DQ is just less fun fit solo players.

Last season if I had a great game I could carry because my opposition was unorganized. Now I get ultra camped so that doesn't happen and I'm reliant on the premade to do something that may not be listening or acting.

If I'm sucking it up... the same goes. If my premade is deciding to be goofy I'm done for.

It's like the solo players don't matter even though we're vital for DQ to continue. That by itself should tell you how garbage dq is.

Jasiwel2 votes

Don't get me wrong, I feel the same way when I'm matched with/against a 3-man premade. In that sense, DQ is not fulfilling the SoloQ experience. HOWEVER, when I played Ranked prior to DQ, I'd have considerably similar situations with Duo players.

We're going to have to call for an all-or-nothing kind of SoloQ here and it's not that plausible with these kinds of queue times. Diamond onward will be considerably difficult for anyone to play if they split the Queue.

I'm mostly speaking from a "What do we do now" vs "Riot shouldn't have done that" perspective. It's clear DQ is here to stay and Riot is going to need to figure out how to appease the Solo players if SoloQ cannot work out in their scheme.

Starcraft243ver1 votes

No, in lol as in sc2 you are judged on the issue of the game : win, or lose.

Jasiwel1 votes

Not exactly. In SC2, you are judged on a 1v1 W/L scenario featuring only your MMR. As you win, your MMR improves and you are matched with this within your MMR at your Tier. You can literally look at the ladder to see who your likely opponents are going to be. In SC2, you are only responsible for yourself and your own strategies. The only other variable to take into account is your opponent. Now, you will still play people outside your Tier if you do well enough, but my point is that your W/L should typically be split 50/50 as you win because you will undoubtedly run into others with your MMR. SC2's ladder system isn't perfect, but because it only has to keep into account a 1v1 scenario, it's far more accurate as a ladder experience.

In League, you have a 5v5 W/L scenario that factors in your personal MMR, your ELO, and your Division. Unfortunately, looking at the ladder of your division is completely pointless; because of the many variables and high population, you'll rarely play the people in your own Division and you'll still end up matched against people in other Divisions/Tiers. That's not necessarily a problem, but it is NOT a true ladder experience as others demand for. Those same variables are applied to the other 9 people going into a game with you and W/L is determined based more on their performance than yours alone.

While I can't say for sure given I'm not a High ELO player, it seems that League's ladder system is more cohesive the higher up you go because the population decreases in each tier. That's probably an intended design because it's more reliable at higher ELO.

Starcraft243ver1 votes

Not exactly, in starcraft 2 due to the small sample of player you are more likely to play against a player you are favored against or the contrary (when i was GM i could still play diamonds players sometime, and when you play at like 6/7 am you end up playing against plat players sometimes, but thats another problem).

If you have a really large player base, as it is the case in LoL, you are pretty sure you are matched with and against people your own mmr. And that's the point : Division is really different than MMR. When i was on losing streak at plat 5 i ended up playing with full gold 3/4 players and against full gold 3/4 players, because that's where my mmr did belong. If you are on a winning streak (like 15 games in a row), your MMR grew faster than your LP, so you can play vs diamonds and still be gold I. I remember a guy who left all his BO to stay bronze 1 but still had a diamond ELO, so the system matched him with and against diamond even tough he was bronze.

(TL;DR : The divisions are just some shiny grades you show to your friends, they do not matter at all to determine against who and with who you will be matched, note that sc2 works exactly the same way, some of my GM friend are constantly leaving the challenger leagues on purpose with their ||||||||||||||| accounts to stay anonymous, so they ends up being plat most time, but they are matched against GM and people their own MMR).

No, there are other reasons you sometimes feel like the ennemy team was way worse than you or way better than you and you felt like the MMR thing wasnt performant :

  • Smurfs (when you face a smurf in sc2 they shit on you in 4 minuts, you surrender and you forget about it, in LoL it can go through a painfull 20min rape)
  • In starcraft 2, most people only play one race, so they have 3 match up to master, in LoL if you are OTP you have 130 match up to know (more realistically 30 because you are on a lane, but you have to account for the jungler or global ult as well), if you are not OTP and you play 20 champs you have 20*30 = 600 match up to know. That's a lot, and this explains alone the difference of performances of the players between all their games, plus the fact some match ups are favored in one or the other side.
  • that's only for the laning phase, if we consider the whole teamplay part now : 130 champs 6 bans it means that there are 124x123x122x121x120x119x118x117x116x115 combinations (5.9* 10^20) It's pretty hard to know every comp, and pretty hard to know how to play with and against every comp, with time and experience you basically understand what is the "global strategy" based on your composition and the opponent one (1 3 1, 4 1, split push, group mid, skirmishers, early vs late, poke team, engage team, burst, sustain, all in team , juggermaw, protect the adc...)

I like to think that LoL requires a lot more knowledge than starcraft 2 to be played correctly, whereas starcraft requires more multitask and maybe more mecanics/apm.

Jasiwel1 votes

Ah, I see. Great to have an SC2 GM here to explain some things!

My only question left is about the differences between SC2's MMR-based system and League's MMR/ELO hybrid system. Can't MMR/ELO cause conflicts with each other? Is ELO more of an indicator of your division and MMR is the actual player rating?

Starcraft243ver2 votes

ELO and MMR are two words for the same thing i think we use ELO in LoL, and more MMR in sc2, but MMR stands for "MatchMaking Rating" whereas ELO is the name of the guy who designed this kind of system (for chess, but i'm not so sure about this information), ELO = MMR = A number representing your skill. (Well, if we consider skill as the capacity to win games)

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=12029 (It's a bit outdated and they may have updated the system since but, it gives some good hints about how the system works both in LoL and starcraft 2)

Xonra2 votes

{quoted}

I agree with this argument. I think people aren't even considering the fact that old SoloQ was not that great. It was hardly a real ladder experience, especially if you were like me and played StarCraft2 for two years before even trying League of Legends. The key difference is that W/L is far more comprehensive in a 1v1 scenario than a 5v5 scenario where everyone sees themselves as Solo players. In SC2, you could look at your ladder for a general clue as to who you may end up facing in your MMR, but in LoL seeing the people around you in your division is completely pointless.

For a true ladder experience to work in LoL, Riot would have to weaken the LP gain/loss from W/L and place greater importance on personal statistics in each game. While theoretically the stat spread to LP conversion could be a decent implementation, the fact that League is a total melting pot of variables that influence stats radically every game means this system would have to be revolutionary. Sure, I make an impact in games I win, but in the new system you'd be pitted against everyone else in those regards. People would complain the system is too harsh and judgmental, requiring too much dedication to proceed.

The thing is that, until Riot develops a system that judges you on your personal stats every game rather than basing most of your LP gain on whether you win or lose, League's Ranked will simply not be a true ladder system.

I don't even know if a true Ladder system would work well in League. There is so much complexity involved with the game, with 10 players and all the statistical variables that need to be accounted for, so it's not remotely as simple as everyone demands. If it isn't implemented flawlessly, then we'll have literally the same upheaval we have now on the Boards.

I don't think anyone is arguing (or at least I'm giving the benefit of the doubt) that the old ladder experience was perfect, but this was easily going in the wrong direction to improve it. Even allowing duo'ing before was negative towards a "true" ladder experience, but allowing even bigger premade groups waaaaaay went the wrong direction.

With no true solo queue there is no way of knowing, but it would be the closest thing you could have in a 5v5 game, outside of 5v5 ranked queue, which they removed (which I really don't agree with).

Jasiwel2 votes

I can see what you mean. While I am not certain about DQ's direction being better or worse than SoloQ's, I do agree removing RankedQ was unnecessary.

Ravenhale12 votes

I find it... unreasonable to argue about premades allowing poor players to be carried. A poor player that is holding the role of a carry simply cannot be carried every game they play. Maybe if they are always a Tank or a Support, they can squeak through the system. Generally that implies an ability to be carried, which is just as important in this team game.

The issue with premades is more with the blatant communication advantage. That's why the system is supposed to be prioritizing premades vs premades. In my experience from Draft normals, I am better playing solo than in a premade without chat. It's pretty much an unwritten rule that you are expected to use some voice chat if you are queuing up as a premade.

This is where some Solo players will get cheated. They will get thrown in with a four man premade that isn't using chat, which is basically the same as four solo players that just happen to know each other. Then you'll get pitted against a four or five man that is using chat. Playing field isn't equal.

This is mostly Riot's fault for not implementing a voice chat. I get the concerns of toxicity and verbal abuse, but how can you encourage a competitive queue that relies on third party software to create an equal playing field?

DrCyanide2 votes

This is where some Solo players will get cheated. They will get thrown in with a four man premade that isn't using chat, which is basically the same as four solo players that just happen to know each other. Then you'll get pitted against a four or five man that is using chat. Playing field isn't equal.

Let me just say that this feels like the most valid cross-elo argument for communication being the deciding factor.

This is mostly Riot's fault for not implementing a voice chat. I get the concerns of toxicity and verbal abuse, but how can you encourage a competitive queue that relies on third party software to create an equal playing field?

Riot has mentioned that if they build in voice chat, they'll likely restrict it to premades groups. That would keep the toxicity down (you know these people, presumably), and would fix your above use case of premades that don't have voice chat being paired against premades that do.

The Deckowner12 votes

all the bronze V who got carried by their friends to silver will love dynamic queue, the silvers who play with them wont.

Dukues8 votes

Who the F has 3-4 diamond friends that want to spend time carrying their scrub ass from like silver/gold to diamond....... Not saying it won't happen but because of this immaterial small percentage every ones rank is worthless???? What sort of logic is this?

Alüe2 votes

There are also elo boosts/ carries for money. Riot just made it easier for these to occur.

Stillname2 votes

Not only that but they all have to get fresh accounts to lvl 30 because they cant queue together without it.

In fact if they have such good friends that they would all do that for the one guy... then I say they deserve it because they must be a hella nice person.

Urgonnalearn2day3 votes

{quoted}

Not only that but they all have to get fresh accounts to lvl 30 because they cant queue together without it.

In fact if they have such good friends that they would all do that for the one guy... then I say they deserve it because they must be a hella nice person.

You are very naive my friend. Would you happen to have a Nigerian prince currently in touch with you too?

  1. boosters
  2. didn't know nice mattered in MMR
  3. Plenty of assholes have friends. Most of the people commenting should remember high school and college. Heck WoW has entire guilds gearing out 1 dude that leaves at 2am for the better guild.

Yes.... they must be nice folks.

Umirinmahgains6 votes

"You want a real, fair, meaningful competitive experience? Go play a different game."

While I'm not a fan of dynamic queue because it took team builder away from me, I have a fun challenge to the people in this thread that think dynamic queue's style of match making is something new to ranked play.

Name 1 competitive esports game that has team-based ranked play where solo players and grouped players cannot intermingle.

CS-GO, Halo, COD, Rainbow 6 Siege, Starcraft (has 2v2s, 3v3s IIRC), DOTA, etc. Every single one of these games has ranked play where solo players can be matched with groups. It is the industry standard to do this type of matchmaking. So when you say that this type of matchmaking makes individual elo worthless, you are flat out wrong. If you actually stop to consider the mountain of data on the subject it is clearly effective. It works across multiple games on multiple platforms. This method has always resulted in the best rising to the top. So I ask you OP, what other game? Because there is no other game that doesn't use this same method.

Kouhey3 votes

Lemme just tell you this, dota2 has two separate mmr for premade and solo, do you get it now?

Jorencice5 votes

{quoted}

It won't. It cannot be. You're shoving premades and solo players onto the same ladder, and by doing this you have made each player's elo WORTHLESS. A silver level player can EASILY get carried to diamond if he has 3-4 pals to carry him there. And if he plays games with his now-diamond mmr he will RUIN the game for 4 other people. If you don't think that's a problem, you (looking at you riot) are an idiot.

Each player's mmr no longer matters as of s6. There's too many variables now. You can't look at 2 player's mmr and justifiably say who is the better solo queue player. One could have higher mmr than the other just by getting carriee by his friends. Dynamique queue therefore has made mmr meaningless. It means nothing.

How do we make dynamique and true ladder experience? Quite simply, you can't. By its very nature you're combining several different queues into one mmr. Which is unbelievably stupid. 'But now you can play ranked with your frandssss'. NO. THERE IS NO RANKED ANYMORE. IF THE LADDER IS MEANINGLESS, IT IS NOT RANKED.

So basically this is riot's logic: we want to allow you to play woth your friends (something you could already do in normal games) but they wanted it to be ranked experience (which we also already had with teambuilder). But they wanted it to be easy for the player. You could queue as 1, 2, 3, 4, even 5 players all in the same ladder, all with the same mmr. Yea? Well, in doing so, ranked has been destroyed. Now there are just 2 versions of normal draft queue, one just happens to have meaningless divisions attached to with some meaningless rewards.

There is no ranked play anymore. You want a real, fair, meaningful competitive experience? Go play a different game.

Poor baby.

Know someone who hit challenger last season.

He also hit challenger this season.

So yea. Stop complaining that you can't win.

Kedren Aderac13 votes

It's not about high elo players.

They can climb just fine as always.

It's about low elo players getting boosted and destroying ranked integrity in the process.

DrCyanide5 votes

It's about low elo players getting boosted and destroying ranked integrity in the process.

If you've got a problem with boosted players, remove smurfing. It's impossible to boost these players if you can't make smurf accounts, and removing smurfs makes lower elo games more fair.

I love how often the "Bronze/Silver player got carried to Diamond by 4 friends!" argument comes up. How many Bronze/Silver players even know 4 Diamond players? How many Diamond players would be willing to boost someone to their elo? In situations where the above exists, how many Bronze/Silver level players are stupid enough to think they should play Ranked without their friends? You've got a list of possible abusers that's smaller than the number of people in Challenger, yet somehow that invalidates ranked...

Urgonnalearn2day2 votes

{quoted}

If you've got a problem with boosted players, remove smurfing. It's impossible to boost these players if you can't make smurf accounts, and removing smurfs makes lower elo games more fair.

I love how often the "Bronze/Silver player got carried to Diamond by 4 friends!" argument comes up. How many Bronze/Silver players even know 4 Diamond players? How many Diamond players would be willing to boost someone to their elo? In situations where the above exists, how many Bronze/Silver level players are stupid enough to think they should play Ranked without their friends? You've got a list of possible abusers that's smaller than the number of people in Challenger, yet somehow that invalidates ranked...

I know plenty of people who got boosted to mid silver and gold.

Oh boy.

PS- boosting is bigger than you think. Do you think the dozens of boosting sites are living off 100 people? 1000? 10000?

Xonra2 votes

{quoted}

I know plenty of people who got boosted to mid silver and gold.

Oh boy.

PS- boosting is bigger than you think. Do you think the dozens of boosting sites are living off 100 people? 1000? 10000?

It's funny how clueless people are to how big a deal boosting is, and while I don't want to be one of those "conspiracy" guys, the one regions that is the biggest culprit of boosting is China by far. They have people with full time jobs boosting in LoL. I mean...XWX (XiaoWeiXiao) from TiP that got banned for elo boosting) completely stopped playing in a competitive sense because he actually makes more money now from boosting than playing.

He could actually be on a team right now since he was banned from competitive games until February of this year, but he has actually turned down a few offers. Though he is technically playing in the LSPL, he is still known to be boosting a bit more openly now (Riot NA doesn't handle the competitive rulings in China and the LSPL is about the equivalent of the challenger league. or the closest to it).

Bearricane3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kedren Aderac,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f758yE3Y,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-04-04T14:08:02.666+0000)

It's not about high elo players.

They can climb just fine as always.

It's about low elo players getting boosted and destroying ranked integrity in the process.

BOOSTED ANIMALS

Joquan2 votes

It's way more important for the high elo players than the low elo.

With long queue times 30+ min, it's possible for a D2 to be playing with masters and challengers.

Hell, even challengers get full solo vs LCS teams, it's unbalanced up there.

Players such as Gross Gore who were stuck in masters for a long time got top 50 challenger due to DQ. As soon as he stopped DQ? Diamond 2-3.

Nagma is back5 votes

every high elo player hate this systeme

Banuvan5 votes

Rito don't care. Even the sticky that was up there is gone. You have three choices now. Play dynamic queue, play ARAM, or quit playing. Rito says this is best and they won't listen to anybody but themselves so those are your options.

SuicideJ4 votes

The entire Elo system is worthless, mostly because there isn't other than win and go up or lose and go down. Nothing in the match effects this decision. You could play amazingly and go 34/3/12 and lose and still go up. The MMR is a joke. You can't do crap with it. Ask Riot for the system specifics, you will get so much silence you could choke on it. There ISN'T a Ranked system. I wish they had one that made sense, but fanboys will shut down progress every time.

Malicious Fury4 votes

I've been waiting for a true solo queue since forever. I don't want solo/dual. I want solo.

Old Man Teeto3 votes

I expected this to have something to do with actual Ladders.

That you use to reach gutters, paint roofs, hand chandeliers, replace light bulbs.

Was disappointed.

Elwe The Jungler2 votes

Sorry to disappoint you, but I do love Dynamic Queue solely because now I can guarantee the role I feel comfortable on the team almost always. It has been a strong motivator for me to keep playing rankeds as of late. Yes, it does have its downsides, but I'm sure I do not miss the days when I should pray to not face stupid raging on picks and bans and when I had to play a role that doesn't fit my playstyle, which ended up in a lost lane most of the time followed by more raging and trash talking.

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