People should stop quoting statistics as a basis for buffs / nerfs

HalcyonDweller··5 votes·492 views

People need to stop quoting statistics as a basis for buffs and nerfs.

I'm not saying you're wrong to ask for a champion to be changed. Plenty of champions with high or low winrates do actually need nerfs or buffs. I just think you should show people why the champion needs changes. You should analyze the champion, and try to identify the parts of their kit that are problematic. Maybe even suggest ideas to fix them.

The problem with statistics is that they are so variable, with different values from different sites covering different levels of play. It's a cop out that doesn't even hold up under scrutiny. It's too easy to make a vast generalization and prove very little, yet farm upvotes from people who are frustrated with the champion. If you're going to use the power of everyone's frustration with that champion, at least do something useful with it.

C'mon people, don't be lazy. Analyze the problem.

Statistics support claims, but they can't be the sole basis for one. You can look at statistics and say, "hmm something is amiss..." but then you've got to build your argument, with reasoning and analysis. Otherwise what's the point? Nobody who can change things will listen or care because you haven't actually identified the core of the problem.

56 Comments

THE RlVER KlNG2 votes

If you have a high winrate you should have a lower winrate bringing you down. Champions with large pickrares and large winrates are too strong because they are picked over other choices and doing much better than them even when new or inexperienced players are on them. Conversely, champions with smaller pickrates should generally have higher winrates that are inflated by their mains. If an underpicked champions is performing poorly than that means their niche isn't even strong enough to contend with overpicked generalists and are thus underpowered. I'm not saying statistics tell you everything, but they are almost always definite indicators for (un)balance.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

This is a great point, statistics can be great indicators for a variety of things.

However, my main point is that statistics should not be used as standalone basis for an assertion. Posters should take it a step further and analyze the problems because that is what will be most useful to reach a conclusion about the best action to take.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

HalcyonDweller2 votes

{quoted}

Statistics support claims, but they can't be the sole basis for one. You can look at statistics and say, "hmm something is amiss..." but then you've got to build your argument, with reasoning and analysis.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

HalcyonDweller2 votes

{quoted}

with reasoning and analysis.

I never said to use feelings to argue.

Also if you don't identify potential problems in the kit then how does anybody know where to start with changes?

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

Tobias Brackner1 votes

It doesn't really matter where the changes start

You know nothing of balance. Make a game if you want to argue this.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

Tobias Brackner1 votes

Way to through out a random insult when backed into a corner.

Keep it up, you might actually bully people into agreeing with you.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

Tobias Brackner1 votes

Yeah, you're just a troll.

I hope you learn how to actually understand shit before you talk about it.

Feel free to say one last insult and call yourself the winner. I'm through with you.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

HalcyonDweller1 votes

C'mon dude you're just playing the flame game. I had expected better given your well reasoned comments prior to Tobias joining the conversation.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Wouldn't it be the most minimal to not even respond? You know the other person is being unreasonable, why engage at all?

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

HalcyonDweller1 votes

It's possible and even easy to mistake a person who disagrees with you for a troll. I get that it's fun to piss people off who we feel deserve it, however I don't think that's a good route to take because of the possibility of antagonizing normal people as well.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

His comments weren't well-reasoned. They just were polite and used sentence structure that one might find in a reasonable argument.

It's the difference between saying:

2+2 is 5.

and

It stands to reason that when a person combines the number two and the number two as one, then the resulting amount shall be 5.

One certainly sounds more reasonable but is still incorrect.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

People being reasonable is not the same thing as being right. I never said that he was right. Only that he believed he was right.

If somebody tells you 2 + 2 = 5, which method will be more likely to elicit a positive response and teach them better, dismissing them with arrogance, or engaging them helpfully?

Look at my discussion with Magewick. We got somewhere with it and reached some level of understanding.

Treating others like they are stupid is the first step towards pissing them off and making them completely unwilling to believe you.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/reasonable

I see a long winded conversation where two people get to stroke themselves for how many words they can put down on the page. I see wasted time all for the sake of one person's delicate feelings when they get called on their bullshit.

And you keep on being "treating others like they are stupid." If I thought he was stupid then I wouldn't have told him to make a game. Stop jumping to conclusions.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kWTJVL11,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000020001,timestamp=2017-06-07T21:36:38.525+0000)

And you keep on being "treating others like they are stupid." If I thought he was stupid then I wouldn't have told him to make a game. Stop jumping to conclusions.

When you dismiss someone as not knowing what they are talking about and do not address the content of their argument you are going to put them off. Did you honestly expect a different response?

Acting high and mighty as if you wield perfect judgement over what is right and what is wrong will never earn respect or understanding. All it does it piss people off. If the only reason you come onto the forums is to pick fights then ok I guess, you accomplish that goal nicely by doing that.

I see a long winded conversation where two people get to stroke themselves for how many words they can put down on the page.

I'm trying really hard to respect you but with each personal attack and rude implication you make about me I'm losing faith in you.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

When you dismiss someone as not knowing what they are talking about and do not address the content of their argument you are going to put them off

I did address the content of his argument. The content revealed his lack of knowledge and I provided advice for him to gain the knowledge he lacks.

Acting high and mighty as if you wield perfect judgement over what is right and what is wrong will never earn respect or understanding.

Uuuuuuh, way to completely ignore that I've been backing up all of my claims. You are the one jumping to conclusions while ignoring evidence. We have an entire conversation to prove that fact.

I'm trying really hard to respect you but with each personal attack and rude implication you make about me I'm losing faith in you.

Then I give you mad props because in case you can't tell my respect for you has plummeted with every post you make that blatantly ignores my statements. In fact you can actually track through my posts how my insults have grown more common the more you post things that demonstrate you have not read my words at all. In fact it would appear the only thing you are capable of reading are insults directed at you while everything else is vaguely understood and you proceed to jump to a conclusion.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kWTJVL11,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000020003,timestamp=2017-06-07T22:38:02.453+0000)

I did address the content of his argument. The content revealed his lack of knowledge and I provided advice for him to gain the knowledge he lacks.

This is not the way to convince another that they are wrong. They aren't going to understand why they are wrong if you do not explain it. And telling someone that they are wrong and just to go figure it out for themselves does not count. That's too low effort. Put out low effort, receive low effort back. It even explains why they would respond with insults.

Then I give you mad props because in case you can't tell my respect for you has plummeted with every post you make that blatantly ignores my statements. In fact you can actually track through my posts how my insults have grown more common the more you post things that demonstrate you have not read my words at all. In fact it would appear the only thing you are capable of reading are insults directed at you while everything else is vaguely understood and you proceed to jump to a conclusion.

Repeatedly hammering me with insults is not helpful to the discussion. It simply distracts further from your point and makes it harder for me to focus on anything else you have to say.

Uuuuuuh, way to completely ignore that I've been backing up all of my claims. You are the one jumping to conclusions while ignoring evidence. We have an entire conversation to prove that fact.

You keep missing the fact that I'm talking about how you talked to Magewick. Not how you're talking to me, although your surety and conviction sure are the same for both. You dismissed the opposition and continued on with an air of arrogance and the surety that your way is right and there's nothing the other side could possibly have to say that could be of value. My point is that this is not the way to argue anything, because nobody respects or will listen to someone acting like that.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

You've actually started to insult Magewick back. This is not helping. By aggravating them you only make them less willing to listen or discuss.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

If you want to talk kind to a troll then feel free to keep on talking to him.

He already demonstrated that he knows nothing about what he's talking about and that he's willing to defend his ignorance.

He has no interest in discussion, only in desperately clinging to be correct. If you want to work with that then feel free, but don't expect me to.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kWTJVL11,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2017-06-06T20:11:56.957+0000)

He already demonstrated that he knows nothing about what he's talking about and that he's willing to defend his ignorance.

That is your opinion. What is more likely is that they believe what they are saying and simply do not think that my claim is correct. If I want them to understand my belief then I have to treat them with the same respect and understanding that I want from them.

He has no interest in discussion, only in desperately clinging to be correct. If you want to work with that then feel free, but don't expect me to.

Your enthusiasm is appreciated, but misplaced. People are not trolls simply for disagreeing with us. And making such a claim only serves to derail the discussion and start a flame war.

If you agree with me and want to prove my post correct then it would be more effective to focus on supporting the argument rather than dismissing the opposition as irrational and unable-to-be-reasoned with.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

Homie, look where I jumped in. He made baseless claims that would easily disproved by making the most cursory effort to make a game. He responded with my correct analysis and advice with insults.

People are not trolls simply for disagreeing with us.

WHAT THE FLYING FUCK ARE YOU SAYING????

I CALLED HIM A TROLL WHEN HE STARTED RELYING ENTIRELY ON INSULTS.

PAY ATTENTION TO THE GODDAMN CONVERSATION.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Edit: moved as we have run out of room to reply.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kWTJVL11,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-06T20:30:19.931+0000)

Homie, look where I jumped in. He made baseless claims that would easily disproved by making the most cursory effort to make a game. He responded with my correct analysis and advice with insults.

You did phrase your first comment in a way that was more likely to elicit a negative response...

You know nothing of balance. Make a game if you want to argue this.

You came out guns blazing with a very blunt and rude statement. It is rather difficult to assess a person's total game balance knowledge from one conversation. Such a claim is actually a sweeping generalization about the other person based on a very small sample size of their words.

WHAT THE FLYING FUCK ARE YOU SAYING????

I CALLED HIM A TROLL WHEN HE STARTED RELYING ENTIRELY ON INSULTS.

PAY ATTENTION TO THE GODDAMN CONVERSATION.

Alright, my bad. However, I'd like to point out though that he did not insult you until after you had insulted him. Not saying he's right for doing it, but if you expect people to be reasonable and listen to you then you ought not start a discussion with them by insulting them.

Somebody does not understand, this frustrates you, so you respond with insults and all-caps. In a way you both are doing the same thing.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

I phrased my first comment to describe accurately what he displayed with his statement. He couldn't handle that and so resorted to insults. I don't need to assess their total game balance knowledge from a conversation. Saying "it doesn't matter where the changes start" in terms of balancing a character is like saying that if a car is broken "it doesn't matter where the changes start" you just start changing stuff. That is the dumbest thing and only someone who knows nothing of game balance would say that.

He insulted me the moment I pointed out he had no idea what he was talking about. He lashed out because he couldn't handle the fact that he knows nothing about what he is talking about and so immediately went to insults. And yeah, we are doing the same thing if you completely ignore context.

He lashed out because someone was calling him on his bullshit.

I lashed out because someone was talking about me while completely ignoring the context of the conversation. I also lashed out because this happens A LOT on these boards and I'm getting sick and tired of it. Thank you for apologizing.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kWTJVL11,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2017-06-06T20:58:00.453+0000)

I phrased my first comment to describe accurately what he displayed with his statement. He couldn't handle that and so resorted to insults. I don't need to assess their total game balance knowledge from a conversation. Saying "it doesn't matter where the changes start" in terms of balancing a character is like saying that if a car is broken "it doesn't matter where the changes start" you just start changing stuff. That is the dumbest thing...

I will agree with your assessment so far. It is silly and unreasonable of them to make such a claim. However that does not necessarily mean they are a silly and unreasonable person all the time. And I don't believe that resorting to snapping at them for not knowing better does anything to help the situation.

...and only someone who knows nothing of game balance would say that.

This is not as certain, it could be argued for or against. I've seen both reasonable and unreasonable people make such mistakes. Sometimes we open our mouths before we understand the point. That's not a crime, simply a mistake.

He insulted me the moment I pointed out he had no idea what he was talking about.

The moment you asserted that he was stupid you mean? Because that is how most people would have perceived your first comment.

He lashed out because he couldn't handle the fact that he knows nothing about what he is talking about and so immediately went to insults. And yeah, we are doing the same thing if you completely ignore context.

He lashed out because someone was calling him on his bullshit.

I lashed out because someone was talking about me while completely ignoring the context of the conversation. I also lashed out because this happens A LOT on these boards and I'm getting sick and tired of it.

<shrug> Lashing out is lashing out... reasons do not really change that. And the result of lashing out is usually just more derailed conversation and less reasonable discussions. IMO it's not a worthwhile use of time or effort.

If you find it frustrating and don't want to take the time to reason with them, then you can save yourself a lot of time and frustration by not engaging with them in the first place.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

it could be argued for or against.

And they would be wrong. You can argue against anything.

The moment you asserted that he was stupid you mean?

What the flying fuck? People are stupid if they know nothing of game balance????? What kind of fucking crazy world do you live in?

then you can save yourself a lot of time and frustration by not engaging with them in the first place.

Nah, then they keep on posting literally incorrect things that make no sense. Then other people will find their nonsense "reasonable" and start engaging with them. Then we have whole conversations and people coming to conclusions that barely fix the core problem and open up a nest of different problems all because people were talking in an echochamber circlejerk of nonsense. Then those people start whining about why Riot won't listen to their terrible ideas.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

You misunderstood me.

it could be argued for or against.

And they would be wrong. You can argue against anything.

My point was that you made an assumption. A very blunt and rude assumption.

The moment you asserted that he was stupid you mean?

What the flying fuck? People are stupid if they know nothing of game balance????? What kind of fucking crazy world do you live in?

The normal world. A world where people get upset when you tell them rudely that they know nothing. What world are you living in? One where you have layers and layers of assumptions to protect you from having to acknowledge that you're talking to real humans when you post on the boards?

then you can save yourself a lot of time and frustration by not engaging with them in the first place.

Nah, then they keep on posting literally incorrect things that make no sense. Then other people will find their nonsense "reasonable" and start engaging with them. Then we have whole conversations and people coming to conclusions that barely fix the core problem and open up a nest of different problems all because people were talking in an echochamber circlejerk of nonsense. Then those people start whining about why Riot won't listen to their terrible ideas.

I don't really get what you mean by this. I'm opposed to your methods of argument because I've seen how such arrogance usually works out. And it's usually to the detriment of discussion.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

I didn't make an assumption. I made a correct conclusion.

A world where people get upset when you tell them rudely that they know nothing they know nothing

NOTHING OF GAME DESIGN NOTHING OF GAME DESIGN NOTHING OF GAME DESIGN ARE YOU INCAPABLE OF READING? I LITERALLY SAID THIS AND YOU KEEP ON COMING TO RANDOM CONCLUSIONS THAT ARE EASILY DISPROVED IF YOU ACTUALLY READ THE WORDS THAT I SAID! DO YOU BELIEVE THE WORLD REVOLVES AROUND GAME DESIGN KNOWLEDGE? DID YOU JUST IGNORE THE LAST TWO WORDS OF A SENTENCE? ARE YOU SO FOCUSED ON BEING CORRECT THAT YOU SUB-CONSCIOUSLY IGNORE CONTRARY EVIDENCE THAT IS LITERALLY IN YOUR FACE?

I don't really get what you mean by this

What I mean is that when people aren't called on their bullshit then they keep on believing that their bullshit is true long enough for other people to start believing their bullshit. Such as people who demonstrate the inability to read a whole sentence and understand what it means.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kWTJVL11,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-07T21:41:27.073+0000)

I didn't make an assumption. I made a correct conclusion.

It's a conclusion you reached of your own opinions, it's a fallacious sweeping conclusion that leaves out a lot of factors when being decided upon.

NOTHING OF GAME DESIGN NOTHING OF GAME DESIGN NOTHING OF GAME DESIGN ARE YOU INCAPABLE OF READING? I LITERALLY SAID THIS AND YOU KEEP ON COMING TO RANDOM CONCLUSIONS THAT ARE EASILY DISPROVED IF YOU ACTUALLY READ THE WORDS THAT I SAID! DO YOU BELIEVE THE WORLD REVOLVES AROUND GAME DESIGN KNOWLEDGE? DID YOU JUST IGNORE THE LAST TWO WORDS OF A SENTENCE? ARE YOU SO FOCUSED ON BEING CORRECT THAT YOU SUB-CONSCIOUSLY IGNORE CONTRARY EVIDENCE THAT IS LITERALLY IN YOUR FACE?

I know what you said. You said he didn't know what he was talking about. My point is that you did it bluntly, and without addressing their argument at all. All you used was an attack of character to dismiss them as unknowledgeable and unworthy instead of disproving their argument.

What I mean is that when people aren't called on their bullshit then they keep on believing that their bullshit is true long enough for other people to start believing their bullshit. Such as people who demonstrate the inability to read a whole sentence and understand what it means.

Dang dude, are you sure you meant to sound so arrogant? Lay off the personal attacks, wouldya?

Calling people on their bullshit rudely will not make them listen to you or change their belief. Take a look at the rest of Magewick's comments, they didn't change their mind at all after you 'called their bullshit.' On the other hand, after some discussion they began to understand my point of view because I engaged with them about it instead of just dismissing them.

if you don't want to be dismissed in argument then you too must avoid dismissing others. To command respect you must treat others with respect. There are many ways of saying this, it was a lesson taught in gradeschool, or even kindergarten for some of us.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

It's not a conclusion based on my own opinions. Once again you blatantly ignore my statement explaining how I came to that conclusion.

No you don't know what I said, and if that was your point then you would have just said your point instead of wasting time like this. You are changing your argument when I called you on your bullshit. I'm pretty sure you've done this before.

All you used was an attack of character

ALL I USED WAS AN ATTACK OF CHARACTER? DID YOU MISS THE PART WHERE I BACK UP MY ARGUMENT AFTER YOU DISAGREED WITH IT?

Yeah he didn't change his mind when I called him on his bullshit. He got super defensive and relied on insults so I disengaged with him the moment I knew he was just a troll incapable of forming an argument.

Last I checked your discussion didn't change his mind, you hit the post limit. As I previously stated, you guys were just jerkin each other off with making long-winded arguments where the content you actually provide is dwarfed by the words you put down on the page.

it was a lesson taught in gradeschool, or even kindergarten for some of us.

And I'm glad to see you aren't so high-and-mighty to engage in your own hypocrisy. [slayer-jinx-wink]

HalcyonDweller1 votes

EDIT: Moved as we have run out of room.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Moved here since we hit the post limit.

[{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kWTJVL11,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-07T22:08:17.921+0000)

It's not a conclusion based on my own opinions. Once again you blatantly ignore my statement explaining how I came to that conclusion.

So let me get this straight: He made an incorrect claim about one thing involving game balance, so you use that to support an assertion that they know nothing about game balance? they might not know what's right in this case, but that doesn't make it true for all cases they have discussed game balance. The way you said it was as a sweeping generalization applying to them as a person and not to this one instance of argument.

No you don't know what I said, and if that was your point then you would have just said your point instead of wasting time like this. You are changing your argument when I called you on your bullshit. I'm pretty sure you've done this before.

When I miscommunication something, that's not the same thing as my idea being bullshit, that's me representing it poorly. As I begin to see how we misunderstand each other I rephrase my argument to better represent what I'm trying to communicate. The more ways I phrase it the more of it gets represented and eventually you will understand what I mean. Or at least that's the idea. But it looks like you're only here to pick fights.

ALL I USED WAS AN ATTACK OF CHARACTER? DID YOU MISS THE PART WHERE I BACK UP MY ARGUMENT AFTER YOU DISAGREED WITH IT?

No what you said was, 'you know nothing about game balance, go try making a game before you make claims like this.' I'm talking about your initial response to Magewick, not our apparent argument with each other....

Yeah he didn't change his mind when I called him on his bullshit. He got super defensive and relied on insults so I disengaged with him the moment I knew he was just a troll incapable of forming an argument.

You chose to trade a few insults with them before stopping. Also I don't really see mudslinging as being 'incapable of forming an argument' it's more an issue of a person not being mature enough to avoid fighting fire with fire. You kind of did the same thing. That doesn't mean you're incapable of forming an argument, just that you are quick to fight back against a perceived threat.

Last I checked your discussion didn't change his mind, you hit the post limit. As I previously stated, you guys were just jerkin each other off with making long-winded arguments where the content you actually provide is dwarfed by the words you put down on the page.

We stopped when we reached an understanding. Sure if finding common ground and beginning to understand each other is jerking one another off then call me a circlejerker! :) I'd rather understand and be understood than pummel the other side into submission. That's the gladiators form of debate, and is unhelpful to convince others or solve problems.

And I'm glad to see you aren't so high-and-mighty to engage in your own hypocrisy.

Thanks! I try :) It's hard to remain patient when someone repeatedly disregards your points and instead clings desperately to a high horse.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

It has taken literal hours for you to finally come to argue content over vapid claims.

Only now have you finally decided that you should actually look at the words said and not your own conclusions based on vague impressions.

You wasted too much time. I'm done with you.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

I've been arguing the same points this whole time it's just that you didn't see it until I acquiesced to your way of arguing and insults.

With the way you kept ignoring my valid paragraphs and only responding to the ones that were easy to insult me for, I'm left with the feeling that you've read less of my comments than you claim I have of yours.

Now that my points are making sense to you and I've made it clear why what you're doing is wrong you're just going to dismiss me and back out? Alright then. Seeya!

[slayer-jinx-catface]

HalcyonDweller1 votes

How to nerf a champion is still very important though.

Different changes will affect their gameplay differently. Minute nuances can drastically impact how satisfying the champion is to play or how frustrating it is to play against.

And just straight buffing/nerfing characters is not always the answer, it is important to maintain their power budget so that changing them does not launch them into dominance or bury them in inadequacy.

Edit (comment age 14 minutes): Take the Maokai rework for example. They amped up his saplings and made them too powerful for an ability that does not leave opponents many avenues of counterplay. I personally love Maokai, and the way his saplings chase people is awesome and funny. But giving the ability more damage must be balanced by either taking power from the rest of his kit or by giving opponents better methods of playing against it.

The only thing that quoting statistics and farming upvotes accomplishes is that it establishes that there is a problem. If a champion has been consistently complained about on the boards already then this is unnecessary since it has already been established.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

HalcyonDweller1 votes

In some cases Riot has gone about it the wrong way though, and ended up making changes that simply leave the champion unviable.

This is why it is important to analyze and discuss the problem, because if you help to identify what the real problem is, and if somebody gets Rioter attention (such as in Meddler's Gameplay Thoughts posts) then Riot is less likely to make changes which have wrong or unintended consequences.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Isn't it better to aim for the correct balance changes in the first place rather than over do it and then have to partially revert the changes?

Quoting a statistic and making a definitive claim is just so low effort and for the most part unhelpful. It would be better to discuss both the statistic and the balance issues.

By discussing the problems, we as players have a chance to contribute to the process in a meaningful way... as opposed to just adding to the pile of circle-jerk threads that have already asserted that there is a problem.

The other problem I have with such low effort posts is that they are usually poorly reasoned, and aggressive in their stance. These sorts of posts are likely discouraging to Rioters, and are likely part of the reason they do not read or engage on the boards as much as they would otherwise.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

HalcyonDweller1 votes

I'm not talking about stat changes. I'm talking primarily about mechanics that frustrate players.

For example Maokai Saplings, Caitlyn Traps, Syndra Ultimate, etc.

Some things can be changed with stats, others require first identifying which parts of the kits are problematic and how.

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