Is Riot ever going to work on range vs melee lanes?

FalconPawwwwnch·Jan 10, 2015·7 votes·1,067 views

Melee vs melee is fine. Ranged vs ranged is fine.

Melee vs ranged is an absolute mess; there are almost no risks to taking a ranged champion in a lane, while melee champions have a lot of risks. That's why the only melee champions taken in lanes are ones with either no mana, waveclear, ranged farming, sustain (or some combination of those).

Is anything meaningful going to be done about this? I mean I don't know how much longer we need to yell to get Riot's attention; this has been an issue forever.

Maybe making it so ranged champions take minion aggro the second they rightclick a champion instead of when the attack connects, so minions actually are a threat.

15 Comments

SeargentAnusJan 10, 20152 votes

Ranged vs Melee is balanced. Melee tends to actually have a giant advantage in lane if they know what they're doing.

AltricadJan 10, 20152 votes

Ranged, deserves a sort of compensation. Playing a ranged champ requires you to stay on your toes and AVOID getting close to the melee.

Basically, these guys Jayce Ryze Gnar Kennen Nidalee NEED TO BE AS SQUISHY AS -> Ezreal

In other words, if Axe Dude Darius catches you, you DIE. No questions asked

Now, before people disagree I think a PERFECT lane bully would be Teemo

Yes, we all hate him. but in a serious note, teemo has 0 gapclosers/escapes. Ever seen a teemo get summoner 3 ? it's funny, because he's has nothing to help him at that point.

Now, Riot loves "counterplay" and this means, that if Fiora Riven MonkeyKing XinZhao Pantheon , (melees with gapclosers and damage), get to a ranged champion, THEY MUST DIE, due to their squisheness. In other words, "counters" to ranged in top lane. Does this mean, that the above now become dominant again? No, buffing the base health/armor and armor per level of these guys DrMundo Malphite Shyvana Darius Trundle Renekton Alistar Nautilus Maokai ensures, that melees with gapclosers don't become dominant.

In other words, make top lane a trinity.

Ranged beats Tanks Tanks Beat Damage melee Damage Melee beats Ranged

PrinceOfStormsJan 10, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Ranged, deserves a sort of compensation. Playing a ranged champ requires you to stay on your toes and AVOID getting close to the melee.

Basically, these guys NEED TO BE AS SQUISHY AS ->

In other words, if Axe Dude catches you, you DIE. No questions asked

Now, before people disagree I think a PERFECT lane bully would be

Yes, we all hate him. but in a serious note, teemo has 0 gapclosers/escapes. Ever seen a teemo get ? it's funny, because he's has nothing to help him at that point.

Now, Riot loves "counterplay" and this means, that if , (melees with gapclosers and damage), get to a ranged champion, THEY MUST DIE, due to their squisheness. In other words, "counters" to ranged in top lane. Does this mean, that the above now become dominant again? No, buffing the base health/armor and armor per level of these guys ensures, that melees with gapclosers don't become dominant.

In other words, make top lane a trinity.

Ranged beats Tanks Tanks Beat Damage melee Damage Melee beats Ranged

If melee landing on a range equals death, then the melee should have zero gapclosers. None at all. Conversely, the range shouldn't have any easily applicable, brainless CC (a la Ashe)

Take Nidalee for example. In a hypothetical scenario, if I'm playing Nidalee , and you're playing Darius , what you're saying is that entering melee range equals death for me.

Nidalee needs to enter melee range to use half her kit. And what if I'm playing AD nidalee? AD nidalee gets nearly all of her damage from her Cat form, which is Melee.

Or take Elise. Much like Nidalee, she's a range in her human form and a melee in her spider form.

How would you balance these champions? Treating them like ranged champions under your theory would get them nerfed into the ground, unable to use half their kits because the second they go in to do any damage whatsoever, they blow up.

Treating them like Melee champions would cause further problems because they can also use ranged abilities.

Treating them like Ranged in one form and Melee in the other would cause these champions to become the meta in toplane, because their ranged form would deal with tanks, and their melee form would deal with melee assassins or other ranged, depending on the champion (Elise would deal with melee assassins, Nidalee would deal with other ranged)

AltricadJan 10, 20151 votes

I'd say for Elise and Nidalee Make it so that they gain bonus resistances in their alternate melee forms. For example, they could both gain 10/20/30 ( HYPOTHETICAL) armor or maybe some health. The reason being, lane bully themselves aren't un-healthy. It's only when they don't pay ANY compensation.

I've seen too many AD nidalees poke me to death whenever I play Darius and even when I manage to pull them, they HARDLY take damage. I don't want them nerfed to oblivion but maybe squisheness equal to this guy .> Teemo

You're punished if you screw up and get pulled.

EDIT: And Ashe is hardly a problem. If you meant Quinn in top, then yeah. But Riot themselves said they're gonna change Quinn eventually so, ( and she has a low pick rate too).

PrinceOfStormsJan 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'd say for and Make it so that they gain bonus resistances in their alternate melee forms. For example, they could both gain 10/20/30 ( HYPOTHETICAL) armor or maybe some health. The reason being, lane bully themselves aren't un-healthy. It's only when they don't pay ANY compensation.

I've seen too many AD nidalees poke me to death whenever I play and even when I manage to pull them, they HARDLY take damage. I don't want them nerfed to oblivion but maybe squisheness equal to this guy .>

You're punished if you screw up and get pulled.

EDIT: And is hardly a problem. If you meant in top, then yeah. But Riot themselves said they're gonna change Quinn eventually so, ( and she has a low pick rate too).

Wasn't saying that Ashe was a problem, only that her AA-based slow is an example of brainless CC.

Also, Elise actually HAD bonus armor and MR in her spider form on release. Riot nerfed her promptly.

Conversely, if you're saying that ranged champions should get deleted if Darius lands a pull, Darius should get annihilated if he misses a pull (hypothetical change: his base damage is reduced by 50%, but landing a pull gives him a buff that increases his damage to where it is now, maybe slightly higher). This gives him counterplay instead of "Oh I'm in melee range, I'm dead now" and also allows other melee champions to successfully engage him, by baiting out and dodging a pull, and then going in for the kill.

In addition, Teemo has a couple parts of his kit that compensate for his squishiness, most notably the slow on his mushrooms and the sprint on his W that give him escape potential.

There are also further problems with balancing tanks vs. bruisers, in that one or the other will suck. Both should bring damage, so what ends up being the deciding factor between which is good is that either the tanks are livelords, or the bruisers can delete someone like an assassin. If a bruiser cannot delete someone, or doesn't have a hefty amount of defense, then they will fall into disuse. Similarly, if a tank cannot live through a burst rotation, then the extra defense that a tank actually has is irrelevant and people will move towards bruisers, which would have more damage and mobility.

AltricadJan 10, 20151 votes

I think we're both on the same line. There was one more thread just made but, apparently Bruisers like Irelia XinZhao have MORE Hp than pure tanks at level 1. Honestly, Morello was right when he said bruisers were mistakes. Either they're too strong or too weak. But something along the lines of more counterplay has to be done. We're not gonna get anywhere if we just keep debating what changes to take.

But Riot, removing Elise's base stats in spider form ALONG with the recent nerfs are ridiculous! It's like they don't wanna see her being picked again

Flying BuntcakeJan 10, 20151 votes

I feel like they can't really change the existing melee champions against ranged champions, but they should think of this a little harder in designing new melees, maybe. ( they probably already think of this ._.)

I guess its all about how skillful you are with said melee champ, and what items you get.

A Wise FoolJan 10, 20151 votes

It is already fair. Ranged has poke, melee has kill pressure. At least with equal skill

Kuroi86Jan 10, 20151 votes

Which kinds of melee are you referring to?

Bruisers in lane have bully potential, you've just got to be smart about applying pressure at the right times.

If you mean melee carries, then you shouldn't have early pressure, the point is for you to have an insane late game with a poor early game in trade, so you won't be going crazy in lane, you're not meant to go crazy in lane.

N3mO06Jan 10, 20151 votes

No man, base stats of a melee champ are higher then a ranged champ. This is a kind of balance. The problem is that a ranged champ with high mobility can harras a melee even under tower without taking a single hit of tower( vayne, gnar, kalista). Maybe it would be ok if the tower would reduce the damage in the first few minutes of play from all ranged aa, or would have a bigger agro range for a ranged champ, should be fair, it is not right that the towers have the same range for both melee and for a ranged, at least for the early stages of the game

5G8Nri0B54Jan 10, 20151 votes

Melee champions have absolutely zero problems wrecking the ranged Urgot.

AnkhrJan 10, 20151 votes

This is like saying right handed people are an absolute mess to left handed people.

Rock RockburghJan 10, 20151 votes

This could be balanced with two words, but Riot will never do it because it would be a HUGE change to the game.

Those words? "Turn Speed."

GinnyJan 10, 20151 votes

Many melee champions have a gap closer or ranged CC of some type.

Aatrox Q; Akali R; Alistar W; Amumu Q; Blitzcrank Q, W; Braum Q, R; Chogath Q, W; Darius E; Diana R; DrMundo Q; Evelynn W; Fiora Q; Fizz Q, E, R; Galio Q, W, R; Gangplank Q, E; Garen Q; Gnar (melee) E; Gragas Q, E, R; Hecarim E, R; Irelia Q; JarvanIV Q, E, R; Jax Q; Jayce (melee) Q; Kassadin E, R; Katarina W, E; Kayle Q, E; Khazix W, E, R; LeeSin Q, W; Leona E, R; Malphite Q, R; Maokai Q, W, E; MasterYi Q, R; Nasus W; Nautilus Q, R; Nidalee (melee) W; Nocturne Q, E, R; Nunu W, E, R; Olaf Q, R; Pantheon W, R; Poppy W, E; Rammus Q; RekSai W, E, R; Renekton W, E; Rengar E, R, going in bushes; Riven Q, E; Rumble Q; Sejuani Q, R; Shaco Q, E; Shen E; Shyvana W; Singed W, R; Sion Q, E, R; Skarner E, R-ish; Talon W, E, R; Taric E; Trundle W, E; Tryndamere E, W; Udyr E; Q, R; Volibear Q; Warwick E, R; MonkeyKing E; XinZhao E, R; Yasuo Q, E; Yorick Q, W; Zac Q, E; Zed W, E (conditional), R;

Exceptions: Mordekaiser , who still has three ranged abilities.

Of course, that's not to say that there's not a disadvantage for melee champions in melee versus ranged lanes.

The disadvantage is really dependent on specific match-ups. It all depends on who's against who. Melee champions are innately tankier than ranged ones in an effort to compensate for the lower attack range, but I reiterate: Melee vs. Ranged match-ups are, like any other match-up, defined by specific champions and their summoner's ability to play them.