Someone tell me what's the logic behind removing omen slow and Frozen Mallet but not red buff slow

FalconPawwwwnch··23 votes·3,700 views

Because I don't get it.

Omen slow and Red buff slow both have no counterplay. One costed 3k gold. One is free. One slows and deals damage. One only slowed. The one that helped melees more was removed with no compensation. The one that helped ranged champions wasn't touched at all until multiple patches later (preseason 5) and still is going to exist unlike Omen slow.

Don't even get me started on Frozen Mallet. Massively nerfed in season 3, build path removed in season 3, now planning on being removed (according to Xypherous). Meanwhile ranged champions make any melee champion useless without any cost or cooldown except for the melee champions with no counterplay anyway like Maokai.

There's a reason why melee mobility creep is so damn high; the ones that aren't mobile get deleted from teamfights the instant a ranged AD gets a red buff, and are only useful as splitpushers. Then when those same champions have tools that can compete with red buff slow like targetted CC and gap closers people complain about THOSE but not about the nonexistent counterplay to red buff slow. You want to take a huge direction to fixing mobility creep? Remove the slow from red buff, at least on ranged autoattacks. Even removing it from melee champions is a good idea; it'll make CC tanks actually usable again instead of being outjungled by someone like Kha'Zix who only has 1 slow in his kit.

74 Comments

AetherKingdom15 votes

Omen had counterplay. Furor enchantment boots

Caezium3 votes

... True. But no one acknowledged this.

shppy7 votes

Yeah, but ADcs can't be expected to adapt, Riot's gotta just nerf everything else that would encourage ADc adaptation and force everyone else to adapt to the ADcs instead.

No ADc bias at all, nope.

AmightyT8 votes

Mallet has always been a super good must have or super duper situational so I cant say im sad to see it go, but randuins has counterplay and is very much core on alot of champions.

HateDaddy5 votes

Mallet has always been a super good must have or super duper situational so I cant say im sad to see it go, but randuins has counterplay and is very much core on alot of champions.

FMallet isn't even a problem

In most cases, a melee champions problem isn't sticking to a target - it's getting in range of them in the first place. As far as it not having counterplay, yeah well, Zhonyas has a ton of counterplay, too.

Squarefighter7 votes

it'll make CC tanks actually usable again instead of being outjungled by someone like Kha'Zix who only has 1 slow in his kit.

Actually he has two

Caezium1 votes

Well 2(passive and W), but he can slow again after every ult use because of how his passive works.

Digitality6 votes

I'd prefer a step back towards Season 2 when ADCs needed more protection from their team to operate at 100% efficiency.

OblongOtter4 votes

Well frozen mallet isn't needed in the game. Everyone should either be full damage or full tank. Clearly we don't need there to be items that give a good bit of health AND AD. That would be ludicrous. item 3116 item 3027 item 3151

HateDaddy2 votes

Well frozen mallet isn't needed in the game. Everyone should either be full damage or full tank. Clearly we don't need there to be items that give a good bit of health AND AD. That would be ludicrous. item 3116 item 3027 item 3151

lol

like every AP item in the game offers both some form of resistances and damage. The ones that don't are items that are 100% commited to utility or insane damage spikes (think rabadons, lich bane or DFG).

Skias2 votes

Then you give those items to Fizz Diana or Akali when they are the slightest bit ahead and its toot toot here comes the pain train. Last stop, your nexus.

Lajinn53 votes

Well frozen mallet isn't needed in the game. Everyone should either be full damage or full tank. Clearly we don't need there to be items that give a good bit of health AND AD. That would be ludicrous. item 3116 item 3027 item 3151

Everybody knows that AP itemization is utterly ridiculous when compared to any other class in terms of how good it is

MyGhettoFantasy5 votes

There is a reason for that. AP items give a lot of defense because AP champs rely on CDs and combos. They don't offer DPS. They offer burst. When their burst is on CD, they aren't doing a lot, unlike an ADC that has massive DPS.

An AP champ that cannot survive a team fight to lay on a second rotation better have erased the enemy DPS with the first rotation or they didn't contribute enough.

Champion Skin1 votes

Yeah AD will always have the advantage of always having some use through Auto attacks even if all abilities are on cooldown

OblongOtter2 votes

I'm curious, did someone downvote this because they didn't pick up on the sarcasm? I'm going to assume they just read "frozen mallet isn't needed in the game" and got all upset about it and downvoted immediately.

darkdill3 votes

The problem with Frozen Mallet is that it is a counterplay-killer. If you get tapped by it, you cannot run, kite, etc. You are FORCED to duel the attacker or die (and sometimes both).

It'd be more excusable if it required you to get hit 3 times and then applied a power slow, but Riot doesn't seem to like that idea either.

And truth be told, I'd like Randuin's Omen more if it didn't slow your attack speed, but instead caused the wielder to take reduced damage from basic attacks or from crit strikes. Oftentimes, getting a Randuin hasn't done SQUAT for me against a Vayne.

FalconPawwwwnch9 votes

Okay, and what exactly is any different from red buff? You can't get away from a ranged AD that hits you with red buff unless you're hella mobile thus enforcing mobility creep.

darkdill4 votes

Your team could always steal the red buff or gank them when they try to take it.

HateDaddy5 votes

Your team could always steal the red buff or gank them when they try to take it.

lol

Caezium3 votes

Well... It's possible. Just... If the enemy team ahead that's like giving them a free Ace, or if they have the right comp it's a free Ace too. (Rumble especially with a J4 would make it a suicide mission for example)

There should be a bit more counterplay than that.

Drakexionyx1 votes

Not to mention that if you successfully steal it suddenly it's your team that is OP and the other that have the mismatch without any counter play. I personally agree that a bonus cc effect for champions who already have minimal inbuilt cc in their kits DELIBERATELY to balance their already high mobility and damage (like Kha Zix for example, whose strength in the jungle should be his quick camp clearing not ganking as well) not to mention that it devalues Ashe's Q slow toggle that her entire kit is balanced around (and for which she has appropriate trade-offs designed).

Doogmi11 votes

Red buff has a timer, and can be denied/stolen and deals damage. Once you have a frozen mallet, the rest of the match is perma slow.

Champion Skin11 votes

However you pay for it with less stats as it is a rather expensive item so you should be able to duel them and if the slow really is that bad there is always the option of swiftness boots

Skias4 votes

Red Buff pretty much doesn't offer any interesting play either. It applies a perma-slow that is pretty much zero counter play on auto attacking champions or useless to everyone else. I don't see much difference. It's free so the trade off of cost makes little difference. Because of the gold cost, Frozen Mallet is less abusive then Red Buff.

Drakexionyx1 votes

And the fact that Frozen Mallet takes up an item slot that is farm more effectively used for an Item with more damage and/or tank stats as well also makes it less abusive than red buff. Just an addition to the point you were making, which I agree with 100%.

Skias1 votes

Yeah definitely. I would be in favor of red buff giving like 5% attack speed or something instead.

AetherKingdom3 votes

Red buff has a timer, and can be denied/stolen and deals damage. Once you have a frozen mallet, the rest of the match is perma slow.

Who gives a shit. That's like saying trinity force is op because "Once you have a trinity force, the rest of the match is perma speed."

Doogmi3 votes

? Lol never said frozen mallet was op, there was a question as to the differences of the frozen mallet and red buff.

AetherKingdom1 votes

? Lol never said frozen mallet was op, there was a question as to the differences of the frozen mallet and red buff.

sry current quoting system is misleading

Doogmi1 votes

Np

HateDaddy3 votes

It would be a nice start ya

Consider that and the power of support peel now, playing immobile melees is basically a death sentence.

Skias1 votes

Poor Skarner.

Baron Perenolde3 votes

They should just make the red buff slow weaker for ranged then

Arveanor4 votes

Pretty sure that's already a thing, isn't it?

Incognonymous3 votes

Omen's slow and Frozen Mallet actually allowed melees to stick to Ranged ADCs, meaning they ran counter to Riot's plan for ranged champs to be better in every conceivable way. Red CAN do the same for melees (Red buff Xin plz mercy), but it also allows for Ranged ADCs to basically kill anyone with no threat of reprisal. Well, even more so than normal.

Strawberrycocoa3 votes

They're removing Frozen Mallet? ADC Master Race wins again...

wrathBUNNICU2 votes

Or you could just get boots of swiftness, reduce the effect of the slow.....

metaworldpeace102 votes

What needs to happen is the fighter rework. Melee vs Ranged interaction has needed attention for 2 full seasons. Riot hasn't really addressed the rework from a balance perspective or a communication perspective. The more new champion released.. the more mobile they come. For every champion released that's mobile, an immobile melee champion gets left in the dust. I think this discussion goes far beyond whether or not atma's or frozen mallet should be removed.

MrSlowDie2 votes

What needs to happen is the fighter rework. Melee vs Ranged interaction has needed attention for 2 full seasons. Riot hasn't really addressed the rework from a balance perspective or a communication perspective. The more new champion released.. the more mobile they come. For every champion released that's mobile, an immobile melee champion gets left in the dust. I think this discussion goes far beyond whether or not atma's or frozen mallet should be removed.

Fighter ?? do you mean this fighter ??

Fizz Talon Thresh Nidalee Rengar Zed Irelia Jayce LeeSin Rumble Yasuo Ryze

we need TANK rework, not fighter.

metaworldpeace102 votes

What needs to happen is the fighter rework. Melee vs Ranged interaction has needed attention for 2 full seasons. Riot hasn't really addressed the rework from a balance perspective or a communication perspective. The more new champion released.. the more mobile they come. For every champion released that's mobile, an immobile melee champion gets left in the dust. I think this discussion goes far beyond whether or not atma's or frozen mallet should be removed.

Fighter ?? do you mean this fighter ??

Fizz Talon Thresh Nidalee Rengar Zed Irelia Jayce LeeSin Rumble Yasuo Ryze

we need TANK rework, not fighter.

What? half of these champions you mentioned are Assassins NOT fighters..

Orbv3 votes

I think they need to distinguish the fighters from this group:

Darius DrMundo Garen Gangplank Gragas Hecarim Malphite Nautilus Nunu Renekton Skarner Trundle Udyr Volibear Yorick Zac

Whose a tank? What makes them a tank? Then why are they used as high damage sources too??

MrSlowDie2 votes

fighter is fighter, whether it's their primary / secondary, tank is tank, they are pretty much like a brick, whether it's their primary / secondary,

But I think it's easier to say "FIghter-y or Tanky"

Fighter-y assassin and assassin-y fighter are in good position, There are Mage-y fighter and marksman-y fighter, and in okay posiiton

but Tank-y X and X-y tank are rarely seen, or not viable, or not fit the meta, even mundo has 0% WR in world

SmokingPuffin1 votes

Fighter-y assassin and assassin-y fighter are in good position,

Seems false.

Not doing well: Diana Nocturne Pantheon Poppy Tryndamere XinZhao MasterYi Doing okay: Fiora Riven Vi Nidalee Rengar Doing great: Irelia LeeSin

Looks to me like this group of champions is struggling.

but Tank-y X and X-y tank are rarely seen,

I'm not really sold on this either.

Rammus and Amumu are the highest win rate champs today. Top bans for s4 worlds were Alistar Maokai Ryze, and top win rates for champs picked at least 10 times were Alistar Rengar Twitch Irelia, which is a mostly tanky lineup.

MrSlowDie1 votes

Fighter-y assassin and assassin-y fighter are in good position,

Seems false.

Not doing well: Diana Nocturne Pantheon Poppy Tryndamere XinZhao MasterYi Doing okay: Fiora Riven Vi Nidalee Rengar Doing great: Irelia LeeSin

Looks to me like this group of champions is struggling.

but Tank-y X and X-y tank are rarely seen,

I'm not really sold on this either.

Rammus and Amumu are the highest win rate champs today. Top bans for s4 worlds were Alistar Maokai Ryze, and top win rates for champs picked at least 10 times were Alistar Rengar Twitch Irelia, which is a mostly tanky lineup.

what ? panth and trynd doing okay atm don't forget this too

Fizz Khazix Talon Zed Yasuo (Riot even have to nerf him to the lowest WR)

don't make me re-mention those champs

and what else can you mention aside from Alistar Maokai in the s4 world ?? I saw many fighter and fighter-y, even w/o data, I am sure rumble, yasuo, lee sin, rengar, thresh, ryze, zed, had a good P/B rate

ryze is fighter-y mage, rengar is fighter-y assassin, irelia is assassin-y fighter, twitch is assassin-y marksman. The only Tank in top WR in world you mentioned is Alistar.

note : yes amumu and rammus are god, in yolo Q at least

Orbv1 votes

I agree with most, but I don't consider Thresh a fighter. He's tanky and does damage, but in extended trades he doesn't do much. I think he's just a tanky support.

Champion Skin1 votes

The fighters use damage The tanks use CC

You ignore mundo? He will bash your skull in --> he is a fighter ~~ (Mundo's only CC is a slow so he needs damage or else you could just ignore him)~~ You ignore Nautilus? He will keep CC'ing you and be disruptive --> Tank

Though there are some in the middle who has less CC and more damage Like Zac he has more CC then mundo but less damage And Zac have less CC then Nautilus but more damage

Zac is a fighter and a Tank? maybe somewhere in the middle?

Messaiga2 votes

I am of the opinion that they should get rid of Frozen Mallet, but they need to create an item to fill FM's niche in a way that is healthy for the game. The game also needs some better defense itemization as well as some more options for fighters. Before they can do this though, they really need to decide what they want a fighter to be (and what separates a fighter from a tank).

From my perspective, a fighter is a melee champion that lacks burst but deals their damage over time. A fighter should have at most 1 hard CC (if not a hard CC, then lots of slows), but due to a lack of crowd control should generally have decent to above-average mobility.

Some fighters are tankier, but as a result deal less DPS since they have more time to put out their damage (think Renekton, Trundle, Shyvana, Mundo). Some fighters have higher DPS allowing them to quickly dispatch targets, but they cannot tank as much damage (think Jax, Wukong, Rumble, Vi). Then there are a couple of fighters who take whatever aspects of a fighter to an extreme but generally have some type of major vulnerability at a point in the game (Sion and Tryndamere are good examples of this).

Once they distinguish what they want fighters to become, they can fix the class as a whole and the itemization along with it. Though ADC's and Supports being very potent right now is a factor as to why many fighters aren't considered viable, they have to fix that separately.

Ulquiorra9952 votes

Omen and FM - Used by bruisers to stick to targets.

Red buff - used mostly by ADCs late who have much easier time applying it than a melee bruiser with FM.

Can't nerf ADCs, sorry.

PatMcGroyn1 votes

It's because, to be honest, Riot doesn't like bruisers. They are slowly being phased out of the game in every position but jungle, by removing their strongest items, by releasing champions with increasing amounts of mobility & CC. I hate seeing it, as a bruiser main, but it's the sad truth.

FalconPawwwwnch1 votes

And of course no answer from a Rioter

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