Do we have to make a petition to get thresh nerfed?

Rexxiee·Jul 24, 2017·36 votes·1,388 views

LIke how can he avoid nerfs so for long while having that absurd combined winrate + pickrate stat for months... Even the small nerf he had on pbe was reverted already because apparently he got a "bug fix" that will reduce his flay cc duration by like less than .1s so they dont want to "overnerf him", i wish i was joking but a rioter literally said that, lmao.

Like jesus, singed was hotfixed for much less, time to stop the favoritism riot and give thresh the nerf he deserves (a real nerf by the way, no a "oh we reduce his ad by 3 and his base hp by 10, hes balanced now").

59 Comments

The Leo CatJul 24, 20176 votes

... because Thresh is a make or break champion?

Like blitzcrank, you're only getting value out of him if you can land his hooks. No Hooks, he's basically a walking target.

PennsJul 24, 201711 votes

Except for his low cd aoe knockback plus slow and his lantern kappa

NielarkenJul 24, 20172 votes

What? Aoe knock back, ally safety net, and pretty much a cage that acts as a nuke with a tacked on slow. You know why thresh is so broken? I will tell you why, because he only need to land one ability and then every other ability can be comboed together. He is far from a make or break champion. Blitz has to pull people to him and leona herself to targets to do that thresh can doing from any point.

I Main SwainJul 24, 20172 votes

not trying to input on whether or not he's op but you literally just described a make or break champion. "he only needs to land one ability and then every other ability can be comboed together". that's a make or break champion. blitz is like that, and leona is semi-like that too.

AimléssJul 24, 20171 votes

I think he just phrased that wrong. Maybe he meant Thresh isn't make or break because he has abilities that will do their job even if he doesn't land his hook like his flay, ultimate and lantern. But if he lands his hook he gets the benefit of getting a 100% combo. With Blitz its more like if he doesn't hit his hook or is right under you he can't land any of his abilities period. That's what separates Thresh from a make or break.

khorneyJul 24, 20171 votes

which is true but all it takes is 1 grab

The Leo CatJul 24, 20172 votes

Not entirely true. Thresh's grabs have a higher chance of going horribly wrong than Blitzcranks.

Blitz completely pulls the enemy towards himself. While Thresh either has to let the enemy go or dive onto him. If you have a team with whimsical tendencies, this can get a good thresh killed a lot.

khorneyJul 24, 20172 votes

why do u think people hate supp. doesnt matter what u do u still lose.

SociopathFriendJul 24, 20172 votes

Ahri One charm Anivia One stun Darius One pull There's a lot of champions that can dump their full combo on you for landing one ability. That's not a bad thing.

Of those same champions Ahri One dash Anivia One AoE slow Darius One single-target slow There's a lot of champions that have another ability that can be used to put you in a bad spot to enable their full combo.

Everyone likes to bitch on Thresh having combo potential and more than one way to set up said combo- neither of these are inherently a bad thing.

RainfallJul 24, 20176 votes

you know a support is completely and utterly broken when people start banning it in bronze and silver.

ModCaliCoastReplayJul 24, 20174 votes

The 50.4% winrate as of this week? The 5.7% pickrate? Even the 12% banrate, while somewhat high doesn't seem that absurd.

http://www.lolking.net/champions/thresh#/overview

I fear not the current incarnation of Thresh. Your mileage may vary.

It would help if you elucidated exactly what you think is wrong with him, like in this current discussion at the Riot level about nerfing/changing Yasuo, whose banrate is an absurd 43.1% - nexus.leagueoflegends.com/2017/06/ask-riot-yasuo-gets-banned/

RexxieeJul 24, 20173 votes

{quoted}

The 50.4% winrate as of this week? The 5.7% pickrate? Even the 12% banrate, while somewhat high doesn't seem that absurd.

http://www.lolking.net/champions/thresh#/overview

I fear not the current incarnation of Thresh. Your mileage may vary.

It would help if you elucidated exactly what you think is wrong with him, like in this current discussion at the Riot level about nerfing/changing Yasuo, whose banrate is an absurd 43.1% - nexus.leagueoflegends.com/2017/06/ask-riot-yasuo-gets-banned/

Yasuo is only getting changed because riot caters to the crying lower elo players too much. He really isnt a problem at all atm.

ModCaliCoastReplayJul 24, 20174 votes

And what is this? What do you describe your own criticism of Thresh as? I don't feel Thresh is a problem at all. Again, explain yourself more clearly.

Chembaron YamadaJul 24, 20176 votes

With your numbers, it doesn't seem like much, have to agree. However, it depends which numbers we can trust.

I personally use Lolalytics instead of Lolking, chosing the same elo like you (diamond+), it shows different results. Winrate: 51,03% Pickrate: 33,59% Banrate: 21,20%

I recall a rioter stating in the past that lolalytics is a reliable source of data, that's why I use it. While 51,03% winrate is ok, his pick and banrate are kinda alarming. Caitlyn got nerfed for similar numbers, I don't understand why Thresh isn't on the radar.

karolmoJul 24, 20172 votes

{quoted}

With your numbers, it doesn't seem like much, have to agree. However, it depends which numbers we can trust.

I personally use Lolalytics instead of Lolking, chosing the same elo like you (diamond+), it shows different results. Winrate: 51,03% Pickrate: 33,59% Banrate: 21,20%

I recall a rioter stating in the past that lolalytics is a reliable source of data, that's why I use it. While 51,03% winrate is ok, his pick and banrate are kinda alarming. Caitlyn got nerfed for similar numbers, I don't understand why Thresh isn't on the radar.

51% winrate doesn't seem impressive TBH. Janna has nearly 55%. Thresh is good if the guy playing him is a god and the enemy support doesn't know how to outplay him.

I like thresh's going in and baiting their carry just to see how i turn their ADC into a squirrel and shield mine for 200 hp and then sit and watch how they get doublekilled.

DeathBot666Jul 24, 20172 votes

I want to agree with you, but it's hard to agree with someone who uses , instead of . for decimals.

HR5OdeMImEJul 24, 20172 votes

Several countries use , instead of .

ModCaliCoastReplayJul 26, 20171 votes

He did not specify High ELO statistics in terms of making the analysis. It's good that you introduced that to the discussion, because it opens the floor up to the discussion that needs to be had. I agree that those numbers may deserve putting him on a radar, but don't agree that they automatically mean nerf city is in order. It would be nice to hear from Plat+ players on this thread and elsewhere as to what they think.

Thresh is a good champion. He's fun to play, hard to kill, and can actually help carry as a support rather than depending entirely on 4 other people - which makes him great for solo queue, so I'm not surprised his pickrate in high ELO is high.

What I don't agree with is nerfing every good champion just because any given good champion is a strong choice in the current meta. I think that rebalances happen more often than they need to - it frustrates, and hurts the ability of players who've spent a lot of time mastering current compositions to perform strongly. I don't play Thresh, but I'm utterly sad that I lost my favorite Sejuani and Heimer playstyles this year, and feel for any Thresh players who don't want a too-quick decision to nerf/rebalance without the strongest of reasons.

Just because a champion is popular doesn't mean they're necessarily broken. If he were up near 54%, I might agree that a nerf were in order. Pickrate to me is only indicative of need-to-nerf in the presence of a high banrate/winrate. The high banrate is the red flag out of all of these. Hearing from high ELO players about why his pickrate/banrate are so high is the necessary step.

I Main SwainJul 24, 20174 votes

imho he's fine, he's a high skill cap/skill floor champion. a bad thresh is pretty much useless, but a good thresh is as close as a support can get to solo carrying his team. he's the jack of all trades support essentially. he can tank a little, he can cc a solid amount but not like leona, he can engage well but not like leona or alistar, he can save allies in a tough bind but not quite like bard or soraka (imo at least). its the fact that he can do a lot of things just not as good as champions who have that as their focus, making him the ultimate support if youre good enough with him and if your allies can properly capitalize on your hooks and lanterns and such. it may just be me, it may also be just because i have and still do play a fair amount of thresh, but ive never had a problem with him. even when i get stomped by one i may be frustrated but i can always see where it was the player playing well that got me killed or lost me a kill vs luck or something else aside from skill. i may be wrong, but in my personal opinion he's in a good place. if riot were to do something to him maybe they could increase his q cooldown by a bunch but decrease it if he lands it on a champion?

VorpalKitsuneJul 25, 20173 votes

I very much much agree with you on thresh. If i mess up, he can punish me if he plays right, which can be said for any Support. He does not feel over powered or oppressive to face. As far as the q cooldown, it sounds good in theory, but i think it is to punishing when it is already a decently long cooldown if i recall correctly. Maybe a small cooldown increase with a cd reduction back to normal or a little better if he lands it. I don't play him, but as a person who plays support as my favorite roll, i feel hes in a good spot.

I Main SwainJul 25, 20171 votes

yeah i agree i think he's in a good spot as well, i just mean if he were to be nerfed that i think would be an acceptable nerf.

aqours fanboyJul 25, 20174 votes

It's funny how much we want nerfs for a champ that literally is rendered mute by sidestepping.

BlakiepugJul 26, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=We Love Heresy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kOKABUOO,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2017-07-25T00:34:57.154+0000)

It's funny how much we want nerfs for a champ that literally is rendered mute by sidestepping.

So I guess we are just assuming his W, E, and R are useless then?

aqours fanboyJul 26, 20171 votes

If you keep dodging his Q a Thresh is very limited in options.

So, yeah. Basically.

KloqdqJul 24, 20173 votes

When was Thresh a problem...? Just pick any mage support and you will probably poke him out or just avoid his aggressive plays all together. People are acting like Thresh is busted and overpowered when he feels rather fair. His hit boxes are fair and he has more interaction that some champions. No idea where people are getting the, HIS SO OP, from lately.

BoilTheOilJul 24, 20174 votes

if thresh lands a hook on a target in the early levels they will most likely flash/heal/die its not even worth the risk of trying to poke him unless you are 100% safe

KloqdqJul 24, 20173 votes

He isn't blitzcrank. The hook itself may force targets to flash/heal/die but I've also seen a hook completely kill the thresh+adc in a turn around. Not to mention his hitboxes are probably the most fair compared to other hook champions COUGHNAUTILUSCOUGH

SkorchJul 24, 20175 votes

Can confirm. As a M5 Naut (Not that impressive i know) But i have had my fair share of "Oh shit i missed, better turn around and- wait i am being pulled to them... i landed it?"

LauchmelderJul 24, 20173 votes

A hitbox cleanup needs to happen for this exact reason. Hooks and Grabs are bullshit already, but Nautilus takes the cake.

BlakiepugJul 24, 20171 votes

{quoted}

He isn't blitzcrank. The hook itself may force targets to flash/heal/die but I've also seen a hook completely kill the thresh+adc in a turn around. Not to mention his hitboxes are probably the most fair compared to other hook champions COUGHNAUTILUSCOUGH

For one, Nautilus's hooks can't go through walls like Thresh's can. And also, you are complaining about a champion with the lowest support win rate being unfair.

KloqdqJul 24, 20174 votes

I am just comparing hooks in general. I honestly don't see any reason why people have a problem with thresh since he is probably the fairest of any support to play against. THERE IS ROOM TO OUTPLAY HIM. It isn't Zyra before plant nerfs which was oppressive and anti-fun. Thresh isn't in a spot where he is overbearing or too strong.

ModCaliCoastReplayJul 26, 20171 votes

I played a Thresh today who hooked himself right through a wall into obliteration by me and my support in a botlane push. I am not convinced it's a busted ability by default. When you're chasing someone who is legit running away without support it's a no-brainer, in other situations it takes skill and really good situational awareness to figure out whether or not to pull the trigger on full chain activation and diving in. Yes, a really good Thresh can make you feel like there's nothing you can do...but that's the result of really good skill on the support player, and part of the point of spending a long time getting good with him. I feel that way about maybe 10-15% of the Threshes I play against at best - I also feel like they've earned it, since it's very hard to do that with him. If I were putting together a list of champions that need a rework, he'd be very low on it.

Now I am trash tier compared to the reason that this discussion exists in the first place (Diamond+ ELO, apparently), so maybe I shouldn't be talking - but remember, rebalances affect trash tier as well. As someone who is already confirmed to lose a Swain comp I absolutely love next year, in addition to losing Sej and Heimer comps I loved this year, I feel for the Thresh players who have to fear the chopping block because of discussions like this. When you rebalance a champ you affect everyone, and I feel like it happens way too often. I certainly wish a lot of my favorite champions that I spent months mastering hadn't been nerfed or reworked into oblivion in past seasons (S3 Ahri, S4 Kayle particularly). It puts those who've put the time into mastering the champion really out of luck, and sometimes the remaster goes WAY too far in the opposite direction - I mean, when's the last time Ahri or Kayle were really good champions since the reworks I'm talking about? It's been years.

BlakiepugJul 26, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I played a Thresh today who hooked himself right through a wall into obliteration by me and my support in a botlane push. I am not convinced it's a busted ability by default. When you're chasing someone who is legit running away without support it's a no-brainer, in other situations it takes skill and really good situational awareness to figure out whether or not to pull the trigger on full chain activation and diving in. Yes, a really good Thresh can make you feel like there's nothing you can do...but that's the result of really good skill on the support player, and part of the point of spending a long time getting good with him. I feel that way about maybe 10-15% of the Threshes I play against at best - I also feel like they've earned it, since it's very hard to do that with him. If I were putting together a list of champions that need a rework, he'd be very low on it.

Now I am trash tier compared to the reason that this discussion exists in the first place (Diamond+ ELO, apparently), so maybe I shouldn't be talking - but remember, rebalances affect trash tier as well. As someone who is already confirmed to lose a Swain comp I absolutely love next year, in addition to losing Sej and Heimer comps I loved this year, I feel for the Thresh players who have to fear the chopping block because of discussions like this. When you rebalance a champ you affect everyone, and I feel like it happens way too often. I certainly wish a lot of my favorite champions that I spent months mastering hadn't been nerfed or reworked into oblivion in past seasons (S3 Ahri, S4 Kayle particularly). It puts those who've put the time into mastering the champion really out of luck, and sometimes the remaster goes WAY too far in the opposite direction - I mean, when's the last time Ahri or Kayle were really good champions since the reworks I'm talking about? It's been years.

The issue is that Thresh's skill ceiling is too low. The argument you are making could really be applied to any champion. Imagine I'm a Caitlyn and I use my E as a gap closer to try and catch someone but then all of a sudden I am blown up because I just went headfirst into 4 or 5 enemies. This doesn't mean anything outside of the fact that I'm bad at Caitlyn and we can't balance the game around poor decision making like this. You have to consider how well a champion performs when played by someone who is good at the champion and just how many players are excelling with the champion. Currently Thresh is too good in the hands of a decent player and his skill gap isn't wide enough to warrant that.

No one is asking for a Thresh rework, simply some nerfs to put him in check. Ahri is also really good currently so I'm not so sure what you're talking about. She was even so strong as to need nerfs a few months ago.

BlakiepugJul 24, 20171 votes

{quoted}

if thresh lands a hook on a target in the early levels they will most likely flash/heal/die its not even worth the risk of trying to poke him unless you are 100% safe

Yeah, I feel like the stun duration is a little too long on his hook and hope that is where they shave seconds off when they inevitably (hopefully) nerf him.

I Main SwainJul 25, 20172 votes

ok as someone who plays a lot of thresh, id like to know what happens in your elo (i myself am in trash tier lmao) that even at the start of the game a thresh hook will usually result in killing them even if they use flash and heal, because in my experience early game hooks you land about half the time would be iffy at best to go in on. i cant tell you how many times ive gone in on a thresh hook (or someone else has gone in against me) and weve turned it against them. may just be me but i rarely see an early game thresh able to secure kills so easily.

Magical ZoeJul 24, 20171 votes

Thresh has been meta and amazing since his creation. Thresh may not be busted, but his winrate entails that he needs some kind of change to his kit.

KloqdqJul 24, 20173 votes

I strongly disagree. I think thresh is fine, but other supports need help. Buff other supports and don't just nerf thresh when he is legit in a perfect spot. Thresh has clear strengths and weaknesses that both players on either side can interact with and use. I just think other supports are siting in a worse spot.

Magical ZoeJul 24, 20172 votes

Thresh hasn't been nerfed nor changed to be lowered since 4.13. Other supports aren't weaker, Thresh is just grossly overloaded. I mean, CertainlyT created him...along with his other design failures.

KloqdqJul 24, 20173 votes

Honestly I don't see it. Thresh has poor mana, longer cooldown, lower base stats, loads of potential counterplay, etc. The one thing I would change out of everything is his damage on Flay's passive. That is it. I honestly don't see a problem with anything else in his kit because it isn't a problem.

Umbra ZJul 24, 20173 votes

As a thresh player, I don't see what the deal is, his q is a skillshot hit or miss, dodge it or eat it, his e q and r are to stop dives and peel right? Like half the other supports in the game do too? His hook has the longest windup too and if you're trying to kill his adc try standing on the lantern... He has counterplay so whats the issue here??

DanjengJul 24, 20171 votes

Cho'Gath also has counterplay, in that he can be easily kited, and his main form of disruption, Q is a delayed ability that can be walked out of. Doesn't excuse the fact that Cho'Gath is quite strong and could use nerfs.

BlueBilberryJul 24, 20173 votes

Thus far, it seems that you are advocating two things on the forums: (1) nerf tanks and (2) don't do anything to lethality/duskblade. How interesting that you are now advocating a nerf on one of the few tanks that tends to tame assassins and lethality using adcs.

Kariu RenaJul 24, 20172 votes

gameplay and bronze is always behind on meta. Wait a few more months and thresh thread will pop up

Ben SwoIoJul 24, 20172 votes

What nerfs are you asking for? What would you suggest be done to him that wouldn't make him completely useless? I'm honestly curious as to what people think needs to be fixed. Hook length? Hook hit box? Flay damage?

http://www.lolking.net/champions/janna#/overview http://www.lolking.net/champions/thresh#/overview

http://lolalytics.com/champion/Janna/ http://lolalytics.com/champion/Thresh/

The difference is the pick rate, but Janna has a higher win rate easily. Maybe people just find Janna to be flat out boring (I personally do), which is why her pick rate is low. But she's extremely easy to use and provides_ so much_ utility and peel for the team, comfortably getting scores like 0/2/30. I like champs like Thresh. I've played him since I started this game with a genuine interest in the champ, not because he's "op". I've personally gone against many Thresh players using Morgana and had a pretty easy time in the match. Again, I'm really curious as to what people are suggesting that needs to be nerfed on Thresh without crippling him as a champ and screwing over Thresh mains.

VekknaJul 24, 20174 votes

Some combination of base damage, free AP, scaling, or utility.

By scaling, I'm referring to how Thresh scales with CDR. If Blitz hits 45% CDR, his Q is an 8.8 second cooldown. If Thresh lands a hook at 45% CDR, his Q is a 3.6 second cooldown that starts on windup. So 3.6 seconds minus .5 second windup minus 1.5 second stun duration. That's a net cooldown of 1.6 seconds between the end of the stun and his next Q cast, which is completely absurd.

But, really, the thing about Thresh is that you could nerf literally anything about him without making him bad. The generalist support can work, but not if he's A-tier or S-tier in engage, peel, picks, team fights, damage, and durability. At that point, he's just overpowered.

Personally, I would like to see his passive reworked into % bonus armor and AP. At least make him build those stats rather than handing them out permanently for free.

BlakiepugJul 24, 20171 votes

{quoted}

What nerfs are you asking for? What would you suggest be done to him that wouldn't make him completely useless? I'm honestly curious as to what people think needs to be fixed. Hook length? Hook hit box? Flay damage?

http://www.lolking.net/champions/janna#/overview http://www.lolking.net/champions/thresh#/overview

http://lolalytics.com/champion/Janna/ http://lolalytics.com/champion/Thresh/

The difference is the pick rate, but Janna has a higher win rate easily. Maybe people just find Janna to be flat out boring (I personally do), which is why her pick rate is low. But she's extremely easy to use and provides_ so much_ utility and peel for the team, comfortably getting scores like 0/2/30. I like champs like Thresh. I've played him since I started this game with a genuine interest in the champ, not because he's "op". I've personally gone against many Thresh players using and had a pretty easy time in the match. Again, I'm really curious as to what people are suggesting that needs to be nerfed on Thresh without crippling him as a champ and screwing over Thresh mains.

I personally think his hook cd needs to either be longer or have a shorter stun duration. His defensive options are too strong for him to have a picking tool on rapid fire. This would also help separate the good Thresh players from the mediocre by actually punishing him for missing his hook in the same way a champion like Blitzcrank is.

I think it really falls down to the fact that we need to crack down on one of the following: his safety/peel capability, his pick capability, or his cc-chain machine. He is simply too good in all three categories right now. His kit is fantastic for preventing dives, as well as creating dives for his own team. Plus on top of that, this dude can keep you cc'd longer than a Nautilus.