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For everyone wanting Sterak's Gage to not be viable on ADCs

ValyrianBlade··4 votes·1,765 views

What defensive item do you want them to build against strong enemy AD champions then?

item 3026 : If you get caught and die the first time, you're going to die again after the revive unless your team goes HAM right before it happens (never gonna happen in solo queue)

item 3102 : Maybe works on an AP assassin, but it's not going to do anything vs physical damage

item 3143 : You have what, 150 armor then? After item 3071 item 3036 item 3142 item 3156 you're taking true damage anyways. The AD assassin doesn't really care about the AS debuff. It's not terrible, but still not great.

item 3022 : Doesn't do much when they have item 3009 or dashes

Like seriously, what option do ADCs have? item 3053 item 3072 are really the only two items that can help ADCs survive against a lot of the current popular champions. It isn't being abused, it's just a good item that happens to support their needs.

ADCs have excellent offensive itemization, but their defensive options are severely limited, and item 3053 works on them as well as it works on anyone else...

EDIT: I'm just going to put it here since everyone is saying the same thing. YOU all say that ADCs are supposed to be glass cannon, not build any defensive options, and get immediately killed if they're out of position. YOU are all wrong, and it's sad...

ADCs have ALWAYS built at least 1 defensive item. That item almost always was Guardian Angel, however occasionally it would be Banshees Veil or very rarely Randuin's Omen. It's not suddenly imbalanced that they have access to a defensive item rather than an offensive item in their build - literally ANY champion in the game can build 6 offensive items if they choose to, their effectiveness just changes depending on optimizing their build. ADCs optimal builds will always include a defensive item in solo queue. Perhaps in organized pro play they can get away without one due to exceptional communication. In solo queue, you'll deal more damage with 1 defensive item as you'll survive the fight longer and be able to deal more damage.

The fact that the main response is that ADCs shouldn't build a defensive item sort of proves that Gage is fine for ADCs.

34 Comments

Chicken Bot7 votes

thats the whole point of adcs, to be squishy and to be glass cannons

Wenderwall1 votes

With ADC and AP assassins around Tank can't peel for you.

And with tanks such as e.g. Shen /Volibear with item 3068 melee adcs will have a tough time hitting them, without sustenance they'll die in 2-3 seconds.

Chicken Bot2 votes

if you don't know how to play AP or ADC then yeah, they wil kill you

Wenderwall1 votes

Melee adcs have to stand with-in the item 3068 range so any CC will not stop it's attack. I'm talking from where item 3053 is 2nd or 3rd item. At this point no one is fed so tank vs melee adc still have about same base damages, no armor pen.

Chicken Bot1 votes

clearly a bronze scrub, sunfire cape is pretty weak and it has only 400 range, so no you have to be in sunfire cape range to attack the tank

Wenderwall1 votes

Can you share a 1 vs 1 with melee adcs/assassins vs Shen (item 3068 as first item) in early levels? It'll be educational and will help a noob move into whatever (gold, plat) you seem to belong to.

Chicken Bot1 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgMMxTofZ5A

doing this not just on range champs but also on melee champs alone will allow you to out duel pretty much anyone at your elo

you should also know that this tecnique isn't only for offensive use, doing defensively is also very good, ASHE for example imagine is a super strong adc at your elo becuase it's much easier to kite with her AND you can engage for your team or use it for self peel if theres an enemy champ getting in your face to often

Wenderwall1 votes

Damage at lvl 6 is different than at lvl 12/14/18 where adc has enough items to melt a tank even when going 1 vs 1. At lvl6/8 a tank will have sunfire, while adc will have IE. if going 1 vs 1 with them.. tank will kill melee adc, well adcs are squishy. Now with item 3053 melee adc will survive .. may not be able to melt tanks but just barely survive.

Stutter step... is good for peel, kite like you said. And if i'm interpreting it right your suggestion is to keep poking tanks.

Chicken Bot1 votes

if i had an account in NA i would let you get to level 6 and have the sunfire cape you think its so good and i at same level would have ie and i would show you just how weak sunfire cape is.

tanks get sunfire cape for the wave clear not for the damage to champs

ValyrianBlade1 votes

No defensive item is meant for ADCs. ADCs still always built 1 defensive item though. The 6th offensive item offers less damage than the first defensive item once you consider the increased time spent in the fight.

Guy Fox Teemo3 votes

Your not suppose to have a good safe reliable defensive item. You SHOULD be vulnerable if you get caught and you SHOULD die.

Thats the point of glass cannon, deal a butt fuck ton of damage but if hey manage to get caught they better out play the shit out of them or die trying. Not just "Oh I got a big shield I'm gonna walk out"

Alsek3 votes

...except that not all marksman are supposed to be glass cannons at all times? Glass cannon isn't always a good idea? Itemization choices are good?

Guy Fox Teemo3 votes

Except they are suppose to be glass cannons at all times? That's the point of their kit, they shouldn't have options to do A LOT of damage and be safe, as ADCS.

Alsek2 votes

It's a direct trade off? Not sure why there's confusion here. You're filling a slot with a less offense oriented item you are literally no-longer a glass cannon by definition.

IcyPepper1 votes

If you want to build tanky, feel free. I think the point people are trying to make that ADC's shouldn't need to build only one item to survive their natural counters (burst) and survive their mistakes (bad positioning, getting caught out, etc).

Like, if you want to go bruiser go ahead. I hear Graves and a few others can do that just fine. But if you only build one defensive item, you're still going to be relatively squishy.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

So you're basically saying Sterak's is OP as a sole defensive item.

When it offers % total hp bonus. Which means it's even stronger on people building HP (although admittedly weaker on people with loads of resistances since it doesn't proc as reliably if you're mitigating too much damage).

Perhaps you're right and that's why it's being nerfed. That's not a problem with ADCs using it though, that's a problem with the shield being too useful.

IcyPepper1 votes

You know, perhaps. Even if the shield is decaying, it's pretty strong.

Abyssphere1 votes

{quoted}

...except that not all marksman are supposed to be glass cannons at all times? Glass cannon isn't always a good idea? Itemization choices are good?

They are supposed to be glass cannon at all times. That's the only balancing point of the role. Late game ADCs burst as hard as mages/assassins while being impossible to compete with in terms of sustained damage. They are extremely difficult to take out via sustained damage because they buy excessive amounts of lifesteal which means that someone jumping on an ADC late game but failing to take them out instantly is usually giving them a free kill. They are more resistant to crowd control than melee ADCs simply by virtue of being tougher to get to both thanks to their range and the peel offered to them by nearby allies (diving carries don't have that).

If you can't burst an ADC there is no functional way to beat them because they win in sustained combat and cannot be reliably locked down unless your team is only good at doing that. If ADCs become impossible to burst then they become late game gods without a single weakness.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

  1. With how easily most assassins can get on an in-position ADC, the point isn't valid. Without teammates offering exceptional peel and having pink wards nearby at all times (which is a stretch in solo queue at any elo below Master) the Rengar/Talon/Zed/etc... has no problem jumping on them. Many AP assassins are in the same boat - Kassadin/Akali/LeBlanc/etc... can all jump on your face from a significant distance and over walls (especially if using flash too) and can kill the ADC on the back line with tanks a mere 3 teemos ahead of them before the tanks react. A "balanced" assassin would at least use skillshots to destroy the ADC (think old Ahri [you could dodge charm, or QSS the charm and dodge the orb's return], or most mages) but it seems Riot has designed all assassins to be point-and-click or about as close as it gets... seriously, list the assassins who's damage you can reasonably dodge (i.e. missile speads under 1000 if not targeted or point blank [Zed is on your face, it doesn't matter how slow his shuriken is, it's going to hit you from melee range]).

  2. Which is why ADCs have never built glass cannon. IDK what happened in S5, but when I started in Season 4, literally every ADC guide on the web had a Guardian's Angel as the generic item and Banshee's Veil was listed if it was against something like LeBlanc. The argument was always "you'll do more damage if you can survive, so the 6th item should be defensive)."

Variks the Loyal2 votes

Steraks wasn't meant for ADCs. It was meant for Bruisers who found themselves dying to ambient AoE damage during teamfights.

ADCs aren't supposed to have defenses. That they can use Banshee's Veil is a luxury. No, your Support is your defense. You're a squishy glass cannon who dies at the lightest wind blow. That's how it should be.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

I didn't say it was meant for them.

I said it works as well on them as it does anyone else.

Banshee's Veil wasn't meant for ADCs, yet LeBlanc mains didn't cry that it was OP when ADCs built it to counter her burst (at least in season 4 when LB was really strong).

No defensive item is meant for ADCs. ADCs still always built 1 defensive item though. The 6th offensive item offers less damage than the first defensive item once you consider the increased time spent in the fight.

Skia Asteri2 votes

They have lifesteal so they can heal up if they are not bursted out, so any item that makes bursting them impractical (does not take much as reaching them to even try can be quite hard depending on team comps and how well they / their team play) while letting them continue dealing sustained damage breaks the class.

Bonipherus2 votes

item 3812 is your best (offensive) option against a burst assassin as it brings a portion of their damage over time which then allows you to heal up before you'd die.

item 3046 can also save your life.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

15% as a DoT or 12% damage reduction are both nothing in comparison to a flat HP boost and a 30% total max health shield.

In most cases the 400HP shield from Bloodthirster is better than either option as well. Especially PD, whose problem is that you're often not attacking the assassin who jumped on your face from nowhere and blew you up. If you were attacking him already, you'd have known where he was and avoided the assassination.

Death's Dance may be better, but against AD assassins if you turn their 105% burst in to 90% burst, you're left with 10% health taking 15% damage over 3 seconds with an AD champion using auto attacks on you in your face. You'll just die in a couple seconds anyways, the only advantage is that most assassins will then die in their attempt to kill you rather than get away. Which is better at least, but if your team is trading an assassin for the ADC you're coming out ahead.

ThePartyLeader1 votes

Obviously you build zhonyas just like Garen.

Abyssphere1 votes

Build Death's Dance if you want to survive AD. The problem with Sterak's is that it's much better against AP characters than it is against AD. I understand that ADCs want a way to survive AD assassins but they shouldn't get to invalidate burst mages at the same time.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

Death's Dance isn't really an answer. It's only 15% delayed damage. A lot of assassins have a lot more potential than 100-0 if even remotely ahead.

Sterak's Gage is no stronger defensively than Banshee's Veil against burst mages really. The only 'benefit' is that you can't pop Sterak's with an ally's weak spell before bursting them. Which probably speaks to a weakness in BV equally as much as a strength in Sterak's. Your effective health with BV is about as high as a proc'd Sterak's would offer, but you also get the spell shield on top of that.

However, Sterak's is much stronger than Randuin's Omen defensively against AD assassins.

mogonk1 votes

ADCs aren't supposed to have strong defensive options, it's the only thing that ever made them remotely balanced.

The Voids Call1 votes

Every time i play an AP champion i ask the same question.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

AP defensive itemization sort of sucks too, as Zhonya's is their only option vs AD assassins and it doesn't really do much unless you time the active extremely well.

The difference is that the boards have been up in arms over getting AP champions better defensive itemization in constant comparisons to Maw.

The boards have also been up in arms over preventing ADCs from using Sterak's Gage.

They're going in the opposite direction, which isn't cool. Sterak's may have been made for Bruisers, but no defensive item is made for ADCs - ADCs simply just choose the best one available in the situation.

Nekusen1 votes

if only lifesteal existed....

the only counter to ADCs is burst, take that away and they are unkillable.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

They can't lifesteal if they're under hard CC. Thornmail counters lifesteal (in the sense that you'll take damage pretty much equal to what you're recovering). That's 2 more counters to ADCs beyond burst.

Nekusen1 votes

thats not a counter, and certainly not in the state thornmail is. you are still dealing more damage, thornmail is only a tank item and still doesn't do enough damage to be considered a counter.

"hard cc" is basically a counter to everything.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

Let's assume the person with Thornmail has a total of 300 armor (after base armor + 100 from thornmail, that's only about 120 from other items).

UNIQUE: Reflects 15% of the physical damage taken (+ 25% bonus armor) from basic attacks and on-hit effects back to its source as magic damage (Calculated before any resistances or reductions are taken into account).

So 25% of 300 is 75.

Let's assume that the ADC has the 7% armor pen mastery, the 45% bonus armor pen item, and 10 flat armor pen: 300 x .93 = 279 after % armor pen 279 - 73 = 206, so 206 x .45 = 92, so 279 - 92 = 188 after % bonus armor pen 10 flat pen --> 178 armor after all pen applied.

So the ADC is dealing 100/(100+178) = 36% damage.

Let's just use 400AD as an example.

If the ADC has a bloodthirster and doran's blade, that's 23% lifesteal.

400 x .36 x .23 = 33 life healed per attack 400 x .15 + 75 = 135 damage applied from thornmail per attack, if we assume 50 MR that gets reduced to 85 magic damage.

Healing 33 per attack while taking 85 damage per attack - it nets out strongly in thornmail's favor.

Yes, the ADC is steal dealing 144 damage per attack, but the person with thornmail should still be dealing damage from their abilities as well.

As my point - thornmail does indeed counter lifesteal.

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