Is karma still in line for a vgu?

Death by Glamour·Dec 14, 2017·6 votes·986 views

Just wondering

40 Comments

SailorPsychoDec 14, 20176 votes

She's already HAD a VGU -_-

Death by GlamourDec 14, 20173 votes

In what season 3?

Doesnt mean that she does not require another update.

Nut on my ButtDec 14, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pink Leg Warmers,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kFh4FFbM,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-12-14T23:41:49.187+0000)

In what season 3?

Doesnt mean that she does not require another update.

She is not getting a VGU. If anything she might get something on the level of what Zyra and Morg just had.

SSmotzerDec 15, 20172 votes

You mean minor gameplay tweaks to keep them relevant before their full relaunch?

Nut on my ButtDec 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

You mean minor gameplay tweaks to keep them relevant before their full relaunch?

Zyra has not been stated for relaunch.

SSmotzerDec 15, 20171 votes

And Riot hasn't said when they will relaunch Morgana, but they will. Besides Zyra is one of those champions who's lore has no place in the world and her kit is redundant.

OleandervineDec 16, 20171 votes

Her lore has a place in the world. It connects her to the vastly underused Kumungu Jungle, in which she was the last of a line of magical carnivorous plants who became a pod person copy of a mage she ate. Ivern, released last year, acknowledges that the Kumungu Jungle is still relevant in their current universe, as he has several lines in which he brings it up. Zyra doesn't have to be from Noxus, Demacia, Ionia, Shurima, Targon, the Freljord, or Piltover in order to have a place in the world. The Kumungu Jungle is enough for her, as she's pretty much a free roaming monster.

SSmotzerDec 16, 20171 votes

The only things lore relavent to the Kumungu Jungle are Nidalee and Zyra, both of which need reworks and lore updates. "Kumungu" being in Ivern's lines is little more than an Easter egg to past lore. Plenty of champions have lines that reference old quotes and lore than isn't relevant anymore. As far as official canon is concerned there is no such thing as the Kumungu Jungle.

Nidalee and Zyra will have connections to the Vastayan jungles, because there is an offshoot of Vastayans that includes shapeshiferers like Nidalee, Zyra, and even Shyvana.

Besides, her being a parasitic rose in her lore doesn't translate at all into her kit, so her new kit would either incorporate it into, or remove it from her lore to make room for a champion based around being a parasite.

OleandervineDec 16, 20171 votes

There is no such place as the Vastayan jungles, because the Vastaya are a general subspecies as a whole, and not a nation or location. If there is a major jungle from which champions would originate, it is Kumungu.

Ivern mentioning the Kumungu isn't an Easter egg to old lore, because Riot doesn't do that. It makes no sense to have a champion talk about something that is nonexistent in the lore, especially for someone as new as Ivern. By Ivern's release, they had a firm understanding of the lore, so they would have chosen to not have lines referencing Kumungu if they were removing it.

Lastly, Nidalee has not been confirmed to be Vastayan origin, and Shyvana has not been mentioned in connection with the Vastaya either. Assuming they are Vastaya at this point is very wrong. Zyra, on that same note, isn't Vastaya. Vastaya are animal shapeshifters, and Zyra is not an animal. She is a plant that consumed a human and then used it's wild magic to reform itself into the image of that human. That isn't Vastaya. And she isn't a parasite either. She flat out ate someone and copied them, she's not being a parasite in any way.

SSmotzerDec 16, 20171 votes

From their evolutionary tree, they are related, but not directly connected to Vastayans. As indicated by the leaf that has fallen from the tree.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/5/51/Vastaya_Lore_11.png

At least 2 champions fit the definition of a shapeshifter, Nidalee and Shyvana.

There are still a couple of voice lines referencing Galio as a gargoyle, which he no longer is. Gangplank starts off doing his classic laugh before coughing and clearing his throat.

Besides, just because something called the "Kumungu Affair" is canon, doesn't mean it is still what it used to be, and the only thing that is guaranteed to survive a lore update on Zyra is that she is a plant woman. It all depends if Riot wants to make her parasitic nature part of her kit or not.

OleandervineDec 16, 20172 votes

Shyvana isn't a shapeshifter. She is the child of a dragon. That s vastly different. Her magic comes from her direct, draconic heritage, and isn't the same as the Vastaya. There are no tribes of Shyvanas. She's one of a kind, and therefore, not Vastaya. Nidalee, also as far as we know, is also one of a line, and we are unsure of how she relates to the Vastaya.

And Zyra is not a parasite. a parasite is like a tick or mosquito, that needs a host to survive and feed on. Zyra doesn't have a host. She basically made a copy of a person she ate out of herself. She's a copy, not a parasite.

SSmotzerDec 16, 20171 votes

...So that leaf that says shape shifters.... I guess it's for children of humans who committed bestiality.... Okay... Weird... But okay.... I think...

I'm pretty sure she didn't liquefy the woman and rebuild her from scratch. From what I read she planted her roots in the girls brain, and then overflowed it with her own consciousness, before repairing the damage she did to the body with plant matter. Although, again, this lore is not canon, and it's only like a paragraph long.

BeatzBoyFTWDec 16, 20171 votes

Why even? Her current kit isn't even that unhealthy or blind gameplay style like old Yorick or Urgot.

Death by GlamourDec 16, 20171 votes

do you even karma?

BeatzBoyFTWDec 16, 20171 votes

No, but she's definitely not on toxic levels like old Yorick spamming his WE whenever he's near someone.

Death by GlamourDec 16, 20172 votes

thats not the issue

its with her gameplay revolving around spaming R E

SSmotzerDec 16, 20171 votes

It is just in a weird place, having a free ultimate ability at the start does sound cool, until you realize the ultimate isn't as powerful as it could be. Besides, Karma is all about peace and balance, why would her ultimate weaponize her abilities? I think her kit should be changed to reflect who she is, not just be a health and skillful mage kit.

I would like too see her become more of a give and take champion, and maybe have a Zenyatta type ultimate, allowing the thing on her back to have some impact on her design besides just aesthetics.

SSmotzerDec 15, 20172 votes

And so did Ryze... in 2011... 2015... and 2016....

SailorPsychoDec 15, 20172 votes

Uh no. Ryze had smaller Gameplay updates in 2011 & 2015, a Full VGU in 2016 https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/202294884-Champion-Update-Schedule

SSmotzerDec 15, 20171 votes

What?

Ryze has had 3 different models, 4 different passives, and 2 different ults. Saying his visuals and gameplay has only changed once is just ignorant.

SugataYoLoShindoDec 15, 20173 votes

That would describe you for sure.

Release Ryze https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/f/f1/Ryze_Render_old.png/revision/latest?cb=20170921235343

"Second" Ryze https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/f/fa/Ryze_Render_old2.png/revision/latest?cb=20170326214025

They are the same model with very small changes mostly in just textures.

Current Ryze https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-sgd4iV7IEZA/V3LogE80XaI/AAAAAAAAQ-Y/u1cUdcarg_AZFYNC6w0BdpHof5q9Cw_bQCLcB/s1600/ryze0joke.jpg

His visuals only changed majorly once.

And I said the previous were gameplay updates and linked to Riots list of when they were and they even say it there..

SSmotzerDec 15, 20171 votes

Okay, I think I get what you're saying. Thank you for clearing that up for me. She doesn't need a vgu because she already got one during her relaunch. All she needs now is a gameplay update, and a new voice over.

SugataYoLoShindoDec 15, 20172 votes

Her voice is fine. She'll be getting work done to her in the future as Riot already said in one of their things. So yes, she doesn't need a VGU.

SSmotzerDec 16, 20171 votes

Yes, her voice is fine, but compared to Riot's current standards though, it gets an F. When I can count on both of my hands all of her lines for attacking or moving, it fails.

Yes, but Riot has already said that smaller reworks will be far less frequent, except for exceptions of major gameplay issues, like with Aatrox. So unless her rework is extremely minor, Riot will wait until they record more lines for her and maybe update her animations, before altering her kit, like what they did with Maokai, who, let's be honest, could still use some time in the animation department.

WinterkillDec 15, 20173 votes

Karma received a VGU in season 2. The VGU was advertised as relaunch and it failed on every level. Karma is a champion that no one in the Development team wants to talk about. To me they just had a bunch of Developers working on her who didn't care about her community and the champion. The VGU/relaunch was rushed, lazily done, and not very creative. Then Riot Games gives Ricklessabandon the opportunity to work on her and he removes her shield bomb. Ever since the VGU Karma has remained nothing more than one of Riot Games most number buffed champions and a champion that is only relevant when her shields are over-buffed.

Players that don't care can sit here and say whatever they want. Karma is only relevant in LoL when shield enhancing items are OP and her R+E is over-buffed. There is nothing in her current kit that makes Karma anything but a shield bot. The Developers took away and refuse to give back anything in her old kit, art, and theme. The Development team is very stubborn and out of touch with reality.

IxtaliKingDec 15, 20171 votes

The sad thing is, I have no real confidence in her upcoming rework either.

WinterkillDec 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The sad thing is, I have no real confidence in her upcoming rework either.

Unfortunately I do not think they are going to do anything but completely change her R+W into something that no one wants and add another incentive for her to use her shields.

IxtaliKingDec 16, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Unfortunately I do not think they are going to do anything but completely change her R+W into something that no one wants and add another incentive for her to use her shields.

I think you might be right :(

SSmotzerDec 16, 20171 votes

I think they would just give her a new ultimate all together. I think having an ult that kind of combines Bard's, Taric's, and Kindred's ultimate would be cool. She could start floating and that thing on her back could spread out around her before causing everything around her to not take damage, maybe even silencing and disarming everyone, for a few seconds. Make her the ultimate interrupter.

The rest of her kit is fine I guess. Her old ultimate could be made into a new passive. After several seconds her next ability gains bonus effects. It would essentially be the same as she is now, but with a big new stop everything ultimate.

IxtaliKingDec 17, 20171 votes

I doubt they would do anything nearly that drastic to her, I'm sure they wouldn't want risk pissing off the entire Karma community.

SSmotzerDec 17, 20171 votes

They did that to the classic Karma community when they updated her into a bland mage in her first relaunch. I just hope they give her something that specifically Karma.

Riot has complained about champions with non-impactful ultimates in the past, and how hard they are to balance against champions with powerful ultimates. This could be a chance to make Karma balanceable again.

IxtaliKingDec 17, 20171 votes

Karma's first rework was exactly what you said, a relaunch. Meddler has already stated that her upcoming changes are on the smaller side, so they won't be that drastic.

Also, Karma is supposed to be defined by her Mantras. Giving her a whole new ultimate would be a very risky gamble.

The best we can hope for at this point is that Riot finds a way to take what the community loved from old Karma and integrate it back into new Karma. Anything else would be a divisive gamble potentially splitting up her community further.

SSmotzerDec 17, 20171 votes

By in the "smaller side," he means it's just her gameplay they are focusing on, unless her new kit requires new animations, visuals, or audio.

I think Riot is only concerned about making Karma more fun to play. Right now she is very cookie cutter in terms of her kit. She doesn't really have anything original on her kit. Even her ultimate that buffs her other abilities is something she shares with Hiemi, but his ultimate is a lot more impactful. Right now Karma doesn't have a big flashy ability, or a technical combo to pull off. All champions who have a non-impactful ultimate has a combo to rely on for big plays, except for Karma, and that is something Riot is changing. So they are either going to spend a lot of time altering every single one of her abilities to have combo potential, or they are going to give her a real ultimate ability.

IxtaliKingDec 17, 20171 votes

By in the "smaller side," he means it's just her gameplay they are focusing on, unless her new kit requires new animations, visuals, or audio.

Meddler's words were "small mechanical changes" - if I remember correctly. A statement which seems to deliberately curb expectations. Probably not a good idea to try too hard to interpret what Rioters say, beyond what they actually state. Unless they're teasing, of course.

I think Riot is only concerned about making Karma more fun to play.

Could be part of it, but judging by Karma's patch history I'd say Riot is aiming to make Karma healthier and give her a legitimate place in the game. If that isn't their focus for her update now, it ought to be.

She doesn't really have anything original on her kit.

This is true, but she used to. This is why it would be wise to bring back updated versions of her old mechanics. They were unique and loved by her community. Meddler also expressed interest in what the community wanted to see returned, with no guarantee it would happen. Her shield bomb was most requested.

Even her ultimate that buffs her other abilities is something she shares with Hiemi, but his ultimate is a lot more impactful.

This is just one of the reasons her 5.10 update was a bad idea. It's also one of the reasons her 3.5 rework was received so poorly. Mantra used to give her double sided abilities, now it just gives them a cheap boost.

Right now Karma doesn't have a big flashy ability, or a technical combo to pull off.

I agree about the technical combo part, since Karma is the "Enlightened One" she probably should based around unlocking different combos with her Mantra.

All champions who have a non-impactful ultimate has a combo to rely on for big plays, except for Karma, and that is something Riot is changing.

Karma does have quite an impactful ult. I think any ability that can 100-0 like her RQ, can definitely be called 'impactful'. Also, her RE before the nerfs used to be an obscenely large AoE shield - very impactful in pro games.

So they are either going to spend a lot of time altering every single one of her abilities to have combo potential, or they are going to give her a real ultimate ability.

Has a Rioter actually said this, or is it what you think they're going to do?

ModKnightsKemplarDec 14, 20172 votes

Nope. You can check out the Champion Update Schedule at any time to get the latest info: https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/202294884-Champion-Update-Schedule

Swain and Irelia VGUs, then Aatrox GU. We don't have any announcements about what's coming after that.

There are a lot of champions that need work, but Riot doesn't have the staff to update all of them at once. If you made a thread that made a strong argument about why Karma should get an update next, that might be a good way to see if you can make it happen.

SSmotzerDec 16, 20171 votes

But she is getting an update.

SSmotzerDec 15, 20172 votes

Every single champion is due for a VGU eventually.

With every step to better graphics, more and more champions need to be updated to keep up. One day even the likes of Ornn and Zoe will be on the chopping block for VGU.

HupsisDec 15, 20172 votes

Not a VGU but a gameplay update next year.

SSmotzerDec 15, 20172 votes

Her visuals and audio don't meet Riot's current standards and her gameplay is in a weird place. Also there is nothing about Karma on Riot's planned reworks.

Her and Trundle were relaunched before Riot set their new standards, so it won't be for years but they will get the full update treatment, again, eventually.

HupsisDec 15, 20171 votes

After she gets a lore update her VO could need some additions. Her character model isn't that bad but could be improved with texture adjustments and new animations. I'm quite sure she's not gonna receive another full graphical overhaul.