Veigar Changes

CupcakeTrap··2 votes·2,783 views
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http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/148/b/5/drawing_veigar_wallpaper_1920x1080_by_demonzzdesigns-d51fkxc.jpg

I just saw the preliminary Veigar changes on Surrender@20. I have to say, overall, I'm very pleased, especially compared to how it could have been. I haven't played him yet, but these changes are at the very least not obviously awful. (The stun change is worrisome, though. Despite the range buff, it's going to be a lot harder for him to catch fleeing targets with it, and he can no longer 1v1, e.g. fight back against tower dives.)

A vital part of Veigar's identity has always been about catching people out and 100-0ing them in the blink of an eye, so when we were looking to remove DFG, Veigar was sitting at the top of the list of characters affected by the removal. When looking at a lot of these characters, we found that the full 100-0 combo wasn't something we wanted to support and decided to re-focus them around other aspects of their kits (i.e. making Ahri more about her movement than the 1-shot combo).

Reading this, I was like, oh, you monsters, it's all true, you're going to totally scrap his concept. But then:

But for Veigar, this approach seemed off. He is the quintessential burst mage and we wanted to find a way to let him continue to function as such in a world without DFG.

… th-that's fine, Riot. Go ahead. Sure. Let him stay a burst mage. If you want. Just know that if the tables were turned, he would show you no mercy.


http://i.imgur.com/NGQ4Bo6.png

Q - Baleful Strike Changed to a skill shot that stops on the second unit hit Grants 1 AP for each unit killed Range increased to 850 from 650 Cooldown changed to 7/6.5/6/5.5/5 from 8/7/6/5/4

I love line skillshots, so this is fine with me. Actually, this is even better, because it can be used to check bushes and otherwise hit targets without vision. I was worried that it would be useless in lane, because the hyper-mobile assassin mid would shred him to ribbons before he could get close enough to land it (sometimes it's important to get juuuust close enough to throw the Q and then run), but then I noticed they increased the range.

I do find it a little curious that its cooldown at max level is actually higher than before. I also think it's odd that there's no damage or AP ratio buff, given that these are DFG compensation buffs. (That, and skillshots are usually supposed to be allowed to have more damage than targeted abilities.) Then again, his Q was always pretty hard-hitting. And if it can hit two targets, then in theory it could hit two Champions, effectively doubling the damage.

It's also worth noting, I suppose, that his Q is now like his W, in that it's a pretty much guaranteed hit on anyone who's stunned. Maybe that's why they didn't change the damage. On the other hand, remember that DFG was a 15% max health hit and a +20% damage debuff.

http://i.imgur.com/PFX8Gp8.png

R - Primordial Burst AP Ratio reduced to 1.0 from 1.2 (Ratio on enemy's AP unchanged) Mana Cost flattened to 125 at all ranks from 125/175/225 Cooldown reduced to 120/100/80 from 130/110/90

I have to say, I was expecting a damage buff to compensate for the loss of DFG, which added a ton of power to this ability. They say it's because the new Q lets him farm more easily, but remember that DFG was a 15% max health hit right away, and a +20% damage debuff. One of my main concerns about these new abilities is that Veigar's damage has not been directly buffed (well, some cooldown changes), and indeed has been cut. DFG was basically a second ult.

http://i.imgur.com/spZ5Wzx.png

E - Event Horizon Has a 0.75 second delay with a warning particle before the walls appear Mana Cost decreased to 80/85/90/95/100 from 80/90/100/110/120 Cooldown reduced to 18/17/16/15/14 from 20/19/18/17/16 Range increased to 700 from 650

I actually think this is the most significant change. On the one hand, I completely agree that the E was awkward as a weirdly-shaped skillshot that was amazing if you landed it with the edge but very weak if you didn't. That was always one of the worst parts of my Veigar play: I'm just not great at hitting with the edge. I've gotten better, but I find it hard to squint at the screen and land the edge precisely when the pressure is on. I think it's much more thematic this way, and probably more interesting ("interesting" :3 ) for the enemy.

That said, this basically eliminates his ability to fight 1v1. Veigar's 1v1 before was "if you're squishy enough, and I'm fed enough, and I hit you with the edge, I can probably blow you up. If not, I'm dead." Now, it's just "I'm dead."

EDIT: While reading GummyBearWookiee's observation that it's now useless for (e.g.) stopping Kat, it occurred to me that my main problem with this new E is that it takes .75s for it to have ANY effect. A lot can happen to a tiny yordle in .75s. On live, if you miss your stun, you're going to get pounced on and destroyed, or just blown to pieces by autoattacks or spells. What if it, say, silenced people near the edges before stunning them? What if it silenced people at the center of the "black hole"?

http://i.imgur.com/IDumGLK.png

W - Dark Matter Mana Cost reduced to 70/75/80/85/90 from 70/80/90/100/110 Cooldown reduced to 10/9.5/9/8.5/8 from 10 at all ranks

Basically the same. A little more ability to use W repeatedly during teamfights, which I think is great; I feel like it's a good place for really strong Veigar Summoners to show their skills by landing stunless meteors on multiple targets.

9 Comments

Nucleophilic atk4 votes

His changes where straight nerfs.

Cosmic Warper2 votes

I actually really like the change to his Q. Nice farming tool and allow for poke since it's 850 range and allows Veigar to whittle down his targets before a fight. The W change is all around very nice. The E change sounds great. It now looks like a balanced skill. More range, but more delay. Ultimate change is good but i wish that they made it more dynamic. I know this isn't a rework, but changing his ult and passive would be nice too, especially since his passive is probably the most boring passive in the game.

CupcakeTrap2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cosmic Warper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kFdzTPIv,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-02-13T16:40:13.383+0000)

I know this isn't a rework, but changing his ult and passive would be nice too, especially since his passive is probably the most boring passive in the game.

I hear you. (Also, you have an appropriate Veigar Summoner name. You must have been destined to fight together from the day you entered the Institute and that somewhat neurotic spellbook assigned your Summoner name. At least you didn't end up like poor Jennel Haverstam from Piltover, now a.k.a. xXxNoSc0peSl4y3rxXx. Nobody can even pronounce that.)

On the other hand, be careful what you wish for: a total Veigar rework would have been exciting at first, but I think ultimately a poor decision. I really like the fundamentals of Veigar's kit. I think these changes build on those foundations, rather than tearing them up and starting over. I like that they respected Coronach's original design, and the kit that many thousands of players have come to love. (Or fear. :3 )

I do agree on the passive. It's a super-boring passive that basically just indirectly buffs his mana. The most interesting thing about it is that it scales with his mp5, meaning that it gives him a curved rather than linear mp5/gold graph, arguably adding further to his "carry-like mage". (I know it's popular to call mages "AP carries", but I find that problematic; intrinsic to ADCs is that they gain power with gold according to a higher-order function, and if they get fed they're the most devastating class. Mages peak midgame. Veigar's odd in that he also holds on somewhat in lategame, in exchange for a weak early game.)

GummyBearWookiee2 votes

The change to the Q is interesting. It allows you to farm AP and poke at the same time with a well placed shot similar to Miss Fortune's Double UP. It's sad that the insta-stun is gone...but at the same time most everyone would agree that it was just ridiculous.

The Q change will be an odd one to get used to...mostly because previously most people did not Q farm with Veigar early and only saved it for cannon minions unless they got the second blue buff. Now farming early is a much more viable option with the potential doublestacking and stacking/harass shot. I'll have to see how his stun plays out in game...but I'm disappointed at the moment as now it just seems like a flash bait and his hard counter to snowball champs like Katarina just got HUGELY lessened as they can now just Shunpo in/away with absolutely no fear at all. Veigar was one of the last true 1 on 1 counters to her IMO.

CupcakeTrap1 votes

{quoted}

It's sad that the insta-stun is gone...but at the same time most everyone would agree that it was just ridiculous.

I have to agree. It was frustrating for enemies, and from a Veigar perspective felt like it was also this weird skillshot that was frustrating to place, but didn't LOOK frustrating to place. Basically, enemies thought it was insanely OP and super-easy to use, while Veigar players found it awkward to use.

{quoted}

The Q change will be an odd one to get used to...mostly because previously most people did not Q farm with Veigar early and only saved it for cannon minions unless they got the second blue buff. Now farming early is a much more viable option with the potential doublestacking and stacking/harass shot.

Yeah. Deciding between harassing and farming was a big part of his old early game. But it wasn't a great part, because honestly, it was hard to do either. A two-hit skillshot seems to make it possible for really strong Veigar players to have their cupcakes and eat them too.

{quoted}

I'll have to see how his stun plays out in game...but I'm disappointed at the moment as now it just seems like a flash bait and his hard counter to snowball champs like Katarina just got HUGELY lessened as they can now just Shunpo in/away with absolutely no fear at all. Veigar was one of the last true 1 on 1 counters to her IMO.

I agree. The loss of the insta-stun potential is huge.

What if it, say, silenced enemies first, then stunned them? It's a magical black hole, after all.

Centuros2 votes

My only question is, did he lose the AP on kill that his Q had before? If so, that is a HUGE nerf.

Also, I believe his Event Horizon should drag anyone who leaves the area after it is up back to the center and stun them. It IS named after the inescapable radius of a black hole, and he has enough problems with people flashing out of it if you miss on live.

CupcakeTrap1 votes

{quoted}

My only question is, did he lose the AP on kill that his Q had before? If so, that is a HUGE nerf.

Also, I believe his Event Horizon should drag anyone who leaves the area after it is up back to the center and stun them. It IS named after the inescapable radius of a black hole, and he has enough problems with people flashing out of it if you miss on live.

On Champion kill, you mean? No indication that it has. I agree that would be a serious nerf; +5 AP is basically +100g.

GummyBearWookiee1 votes

{quoted}

My only question is, did he lose the AP on kill that his Q had before? If so, that is a HUGE nerf.

Also, I believe his Event Horizon should drag anyone who leaves the area after it is up back to the center and stun them. It IS named after the inescapable radius of a black hole, and he has enough problems with people flashing out of it if you miss on live.

No...not only did he not lose his AP on kill...he can now gain it twice if both enemies hit by his Q are killed. That's why they did the mini-nerf to his ult...because trying out the changes...people were stacking AP faster with him allowing him super kill potential too early in the game.

f00G3MxfPP1 votes

I like the q changes but those that think it's strictly a buff have not seen enough q's flying through the air eventually hitting an opponent that flashed away.

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