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Champions with non windowed offense are an issue

Moody P·Jan 30, 2019·4 votes·2,110 views

Champions like Vayne, Jax, Yasuo* Mundo, Cho'Gath etc. Who do not have a reasonable window on their offense are an issue. There are more than this but not many.

When you look at most carries, especially recent ones, just about all of them have a condition to unlock it or have a meaningful cooldown on it. Fiora has to hit vitals, Darius has to stack his passive, etc. Most marksman have cooldowns on their button steroids that matter quite a lot.

The champions I've listed above do not have that. Most of them have either completely passive damage steroids that are always on, or have cooldown that is negligible enough to not really be considered. Mundo and Cho'Gath have button tap steroids that get to 100% up time later on. Vayne is mostly only as limited by how many times she can attack one person. Jax has no meaningful gating to his offense, only his defense. And so on.

Essentially these champions tip fights in their favor by virtue of just existing. Their win condition is simply to outlast or deny your power ups; they have all of the counter play tools for you in their hand but you are not given the same courtesy. This is IMO a frustration point that isn't talked about enough. Its an interaction that does not fit into the current League philosophy and is one I think strongly deserves to be looked at.

* I'm tempted to give Yasuo a pass because while his direct damage may not have a real limit, he is at least conditioned on needing minion waves or a knockup to reliably close a gap.

24 Comments

BoatwhistleJan 30, 20191 votes

Dont give yasuo a pass, he embodies all you just said.

kingDeDeDariusJan 31, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Dont give yasuo a pass, he embodies all you just said.

Yeah he deserves to be listed here. Stupid double crit passive

Soul DealerJan 30, 20191 votes

Let’s not put Jax in here. He has already been nerfed twice in 3 months just leave him alone already

Frog goes mooJan 30, 20192 votes

nah. Keep those nerfs coming.

kingDeDeDariusJan 31, 20191 votes

{quoted}

nah. Keep those nerfs coming.

Agreed lol

Frog goes mooJan 30, 20191 votes

I agree with most of what you say other than the chogath. He's pretty simple for me to handle and I play ivern. If you're 1v1ing him, he's going to slap you, but if you have good peel and cc you can rely on a carry to mow him down.

kingDeDeDariusJan 31, 20191 votes

I think MoodyP has a pretty solid post here

Moody PJan 31, 20191 votes

as usual

kingDeDeDariusJan 31, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k8zk4fO7,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-01-31T01:39:32.232+0000)

as usual

Well it's not everyday... ;)

KFCeytronJan 31, 20191 votes

I like how everyone screams bloody murder about front-loaded burst killing them in 0.1 seconds, and then also screams bloody murder about relying on steady, consistent damage to "outlast" opponents. Damn right the latter doesn't fit into the Hail of Blades Stormrazor Duskblade Double Up Rapid Fire Lich Bane Lunar Rush "current League philosophy"; that's why it's good.

Moody PJan 31, 20191 votes

I like how you make up a weird false equivalence because you can't contest the post but felt the need to make a snarky reply anyway

/>getting passively stat checked is suddenly good even though I've been told champs needed VGUs for far less offensive designs

alright hehe xd

KFCeytronJan 31, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k8zk4fO7,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-01-31T02:09:21.574+0000)

I like how you make up a weird false equivalence because you can't contest the post but felt the need to make a snarky reply anyway

/>getting passively stat checked is suddenly good even though I've been told champs needed VGUs for far less offensive designs

alright hehe xd

Weird false equivalence? You're complaining about champions with non-burst steroids in a meta where even an ADC can stack burst mechanics and assassinate someone. It's backwards, kind of like the slash in your /> there. "Outlasting" means there's time for counterplay.

Moody PJan 31, 20191 votes

non-burst and windowed are not mutually exclusive. having a point in time where you may be weaker does not mean you are not a DPS champion. likewise just because you have a le permanent steroid doesn't mean you can't nuke

champs who have no window to hit back shouldn't exist in the same game as champs who give ample room to fight back

calling jax and cho'gath non burst ?XD

KFCeytronJan 31, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k8zk4fO7,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-31T02:24:14.131+0000)

non-burst and windowed are not mutually exclusive. having a point in time where you may be weaker does not mean you are not a DPS champion. likewise just because you have a le permanent steroid doesn't mean you can't nuke

champs who have no window to hit back shouldn't exist in the same game as champs who give ample room to fight back

calling jax and cho'gath non burst ?XD

Isn't this whole complaint about being killed over a long period of time by non-burst? You went on about outlasting or denying powerups. That's the healthiest pattern in the game, because burst turns into an unbalanceable binary mess where a champion can either get a kill before the target can react or they can't get the kill at all and just die. That's why assassins are generally problematic.

How is there no window to attack Cho? Dodge his Q and possibly his W, and you have several seconds before he can make an impact.

Jax isn't a burst champion. He has very high sustained DPS, and in this meta he doesn't need to sustain it for very long (but still a bit longer than an actual burst champion).

Mundo is a problem, but it's because of his Q and ult, not because of a high-uptime AD steroid.

kingDeDeDariusJan 31, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Isn't this whole complaint about being killed over a long period of time by non-burst? You went on about outlasting or denying powerups. That's the healthiest pattern in the game, because burst turns into an unbalanceable binary mess where a champion can either get a kill before the target can react or they can't get the kill at all and just die. That's why assassins are generally problematic.

How is there no window to attack Cho? Dodge his Q and possibly his W, and you have several seconds before he can make an impact.

Jax isn't a burst champion. He has very high sustained DPS, and in this meta he doesn't need to sustain it for very long (but still a bit longer than an actual burst champion).

Mundo is a problem, but it's because of his Q and ult, not because of a high-uptime AD steroid.

Wrong on at least one count. Jax is every bit a dose AND a burst champ. Have you never seen him jump on a fed adc or assassin and absolutely annihilate them in about 1-2 secs? He does it all the time. He even shreds juggernauts like my poor darius. But the point is, as OP states, windows of opportunity. When is Jax weak? After he blows helicopter of course, except he's not really that weak and that's only if HE messes up, he otherwise passively beats the crap out of anyone with jumping range in most matchups besides champs like illaoi. Jax and vayne. Sustained dps is fine, but completely suffocating opponents due to a kit and not due to player decisions and playstyle is not ok. Take darius. Massive ad buff...after 5 stacks and only until the stacks are down. Has no mobikity and can only heal IF he lands a mediocre range q. He has tools to help him do that, but only if enemy is already in range of pull. Without ghost/flash (which anyone can take) or deadmans plate (subpar tank stats) or righteous glory (good for chasedowns, but scales poorly for fighting and not good on defensive) he can't force himself in range of enemy or escape. Jax and vayne can initiate, Jax and vayne can escape/self peel, both have otherwise good mobility, both insane damage, one can juke anything with her q, the other has tanky stats in ult and damage reduction/auto attack blocker stun on E. Both have insane and ungated damage that requires no true strategy other than hit the enemy as often as possible and kill them with burst per second. Neither has to aim anything to land it (if vayne doesn't hit you into wall with condemn, it's still good peel and MUCH better than darius missing Q). Both can AVOID damage. The only tankiness a champ like dar gets is by healing it up after taking it on a very dodge able ability. If champs like dar can have so much inherent counterplay, so can champs like vayne or Jax. That's really the issue here after all. Counterplay and champs who lacks anything other than "meh cc or ban them" because that applies to anybody but tanks, not just Squishies. If a tank eats cc, it's probably a good thing for team, if a jugfernaut or bruiser does, they will be kited tlor chain ccd to Oblivion, if an adc does, dead, if an assassin gets cc'd...they will probably escape if they survive. The problem is vayne is incredibly hard to cc because of liw cost and low CD tumblers, and Jax has both ability to jump out of harm's way AND tank damage. Champs like Darius or trundle, etc have to be able to eat a crap ton of damage to even merely function, and in this meta that can't be counted on without in-kit defensive steroids

KFCeytronJan 31, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Wrong on at least one count. Jax is every bit a dose AND a burst champ. Have you never seen him jump on a fed adc or assassin and absolutely annihilate them in about 1-2 secs? He does it all the time. He even shreds juggernauts like my poor darius. But the point is, as OP states, windows of opportunity. When is Jax weak? After he blows helicopter of course, except he's not really that weak and that's only if HE messes up, he otherwise passively beats the crap out of anyone with jumping range in most matchups besides champs like illaoi. Jax and vayne. Sustained dps is fine, but completely suffocating opponents due to a kit and not due to player decisions and playstyle is not ok. Take darius. Massive ad buff...after 5 stacks and only until the stacks are down. Has no mobikity and can only heal IF he lands a mediocre range q. He has tools to help him do that, but only if enemy is already in range of pull. Without ghost/flash (which anyone can take) or deadmans plate (subpar tank stats) or righteous glory (good for chasedowns, but scales poorly for fighting and not good on defensive) he can't force himself in range of enemy or escape. Jax and vayne can initiate, Jax and vayne can escape/self peel, both have otherwise good mobility, both insane damage, one can juke anything with her q, the other has tanky stats in ult and damage reduction/auto attack blocker stun on E. Both have insane and ungated damage that requires no true strategy other than hit the enemy as often as possible and kill them with burst per second. Neither has to aim anything to land it (if vayne doesn't hit you into wall with condemn, it's still good peel and MUCH better than darius missing Q). Both can AVOID damage. The only tankiness a champ like dar gets is by healing it up after taking it on a very dodge able ability. If champs like dar can have so much inherent counterplay, so can champs like vayne or Jax. That's really the issue here after all. Counterplay and champs who lacks anything other than "meh cc or ban them" because that applies to anybody but tanks, not just Squishies. If a tank eats cc, it's probably a good thing for team, if a jugfernaut or bruiser does, they will be kited tlor chain ccd to Oblivion, if an adc does, dead, if an assassin gets cc'd...they will probably escape if they survive. The problem is vayne is incredibly hard to cc because of liw cost and low CD tumblers, and Jax has both ability to jump out of harm's way AND tank damage. Champs like Darius or trundle, etc have to be able to eat a crap ton of damage to even merely function, and in this meta that can't be counted on without in-kit defensive steroids

Like I said, Jax kills squishies quickly, but that's not difficult in this meta, and 1-2 seconds is more time than some others would take. The concept of steady DPS rather than burst is healthier for the game, because burst builds need to have enough power to kill someone during that burst or they're useless (assassins, and pretty much any carry these days). An extended fight means more time to play and react, which is a good thing. If Jax's windows of weakness are too small, that's not an inherent issue with his design; he could just get some longer CDs, require more passive stacks, that sort of thing.

Vayne's Tumble is unrelated to her always-on DPS steroid. She has no poke outside her auto range, so she needs Tumble to avoid skillshots when approaching and remaining in that range. The only other marksman with no poke outside her auto range is Trist, and her auto range increases with level.

kingDeDeDariusJan 31, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Weird false equivalence? You're complaining about champions with non-burst steroids in a meta where even an ADC can stack burst mechanics and assassinate someone. It's backwards, kind of like the slash in your /> there. "Outlasting" means there's time for counterplay.

Neither are healthy when done wrong. How's that? Too much instaburst across the board is bad. Too many free and 100% uptime steroids is also bad.

KFCeytronJan 31, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Neither are healthy when done wrong. How's that? Too much instaburst across the board is bad. Too many free and 100% uptime steroids is also bad.

I think 100% uptime steroids, assuming they are balanced to have less DPS than burst steroids while the burst is active, are healthier for the game. Things move a bit more slowly, and there's no pressure to get a kill within a strict time limit or be useless. Not only that, but burst steroids warp everything else around them. If a champion has a 3-second burst window followed by 10 seconds of being a lot weaker, not only do they have to get a kill in those 3 seconds, but the sustained damage champs they face now also have to be able to get a kill in that 3-second window before the burst champ disengages.

GigglesOJan 31, 20191 votes

I would argue windowed defense is the issue. It makes tanks inconsistent. They should be steady but not super strong.

Moody PJan 31, 20191 votes

I would say windowed defense is fine but tanks are too good at defending "everything" because their defenses are very general, like shields, resist bonuses will usually give the tank armor and mr, etc.

it's an easy way to give tanks a skill check but I don't like how ability slots keep getting wasted on a "get tanky" spell and the other 3 are crowd control. Initiator tanks are especially bad about this I feel

GigglesOJan 31, 20191 votes

I feel like that skill check floor is too low in general though.

So even though the champions you talk about are always up, they are always up and have extra(s). Meanwhile the tanks need theirs up to even baseline the damage dealers right now.

iPooUnicornsJan 31, 20191 votes

Elise Jayce Nidalee Udyr Karma ?

Moody PJan 31, 20191 votes

udyr yes but can you explain the other 4 for me

iPooUnicornsJan 31, 20191 votes

They don't have traditional ultimates, instead they have form swap or in Karma's case, low cd ability empowerment. Their cds are low enough that they always have tools for situations that arise (save Elise rappel before points / cdr)

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