Why was Azir nerfed on the PBE?

Nausicäa ·Nov 5, 2014·8 votes·16,052 views

Azir Conquering Sands (Q) Sand Soldier damage increased to 75/105/135/165/195 from 60/90/120/150/180 Arise (W) AP ratios decreased to .6 from .7 Shifting Sands (E) shield value increased to 80/120/160/200/240 from 60/100/140/180/220

These changes amount to an overall nerf. Gaining 15 base dmg on Q a 6 second CD ability with max CDR while losing upwards of 65 damage late game on W his main damage source is a pretty significant reduction in damage.

Seems a bit ridiculous to nerf a champion whos currently underpowered.

58 Comments

Meep ManNov 5, 20147 votes

Azir is incredibly powerful, two soldier basic attacks deal more damage than most Mage spells in the game middle and late game.

TeumesianNov 6, 20144 votes

Dude Azir is lower tier. I don't know what game you have been playing. He requires a lot of time to ramp up and needs a lot of time in a team fight to have any affect. Almost every control mage/dps mage is better than him; Ori, Syndra, and Xerath all fulfill a similar goal in a much more efficient manor. His one saving grace is his ult, and that still has a lot of bugs, even with all the patches.

Knight SoIaire Nov 6, 20143 votes

honestly man if i would be you i wouldnt post that

azir early is lower tier indeed but azir is god tier late where he uses no mana has no cooldowns and outdamawes every mage

the guy above you said about mid to late game and you just flap your mouth and miss the point

KilaneNov 16, 20141 votes

Uh...he runs out of mana very quickly and can't sustain if he has no blue. Unless you go fo grail instead of morello then his mana sustain is a bit better. But that makes his power spike comes much later as the ap value is 20 less.

To catch up in teamfight every time from across the map, you need to use wqe sporadically and time it well and each already cost 160 mana. Do it only twice costs 320 already.

And if there is no one to root enemies in place so that he can keep using W+aa then he does only his auto attack dmg and that's like non existence.

The can just bypass his soldier and he's a goner.

Knight SoIaire Nov 16, 20141 votes

i personaly find myself having loads of it

Meep ManDec 8, 20141 votes

I usually get an Athene's or Morello since it would give me 25% attack speed and some AP while solving any mana issues he has.

KilaneDec 10, 20141 votes

I usually go for Morello to, but he still runs out of mana pretty quickly compare to other AP.

RiotMeddlerNov 6, 20147 votes

The goal of these changes is to buff Azir's early game and reduce his late game strength, theory being that Azir currently gets shut down too hard sometimes early, but is an absolute monster late game. Having a distinct power curve's no bad thing, we do feel it's currently a bit too extreme though, hence we're testing these changes to tweak it a bit.

TeumesianNov 6, 20141 votes

You guys on the balance team probably are more educated than me on this matter, but I would make it so soldiers do less damage if there is more on the field, e.g. if you have 1 soldier, he has a 25% scaling, if you have 2 soldiers they have a 15% scaling each, if you have 3 they have a 12.5 scaling each. Of course those numbers are just made up, but you understand the concept. That way he still gets rewarded for having more soldiers (if you notice the numbers the overall scaling does increase per soldier) but he doesn't have the issue of being way to strong late game and way to weak early game.

Robot Beat RallyNov 6, 20142 votes

[deleted]

ShurleNov 6, 20142 votes

Buy Chalice and Ionian Boots, CDR is important on him.

When safe, place W so you can get one auto off. Avoid minion retaliation. Then use Q and go for another auto... Its pretty decent damage.

Do NOT get Nashors, he doesn't benefit from the on-hit effect. With a Doran's Ring start and careful and accurate Qs, you'll get decent harass off and not lose too much mana. He isn't awful early game, or at least at my skill level I haven't found him to be too weak. He has good poke.

And don't use your E unless you know you'll get the kill. And try to save at least one soldier for escaping.

Wehrmacht BunnyNov 6, 20141 votes

The goal of these changes is to buff Azir's early game and reduce his late game strength, theory being that Azir currently gets shut down too hard sometimes early, but is an absolute monster late game. Having a distinct power curve's no bad thing, we do feel it's currently a bit too extreme though, hence we're testing these changes to tweak it a bit.

Wait..............You guys are nerfing his late game effectivness, and buffing his early game? Why not just buff his early game and leave his late game. He's hard enough as it is to get kills, with all the bugs and completely relying on his Q. Not to mention, once he falls behind he is left behind.

CuixNov 6, 20141 votes

My initial inclination is that this hit to his W is too harsh, but he does seem to have some potentially ridiculous damage from what the pros say.

exe3Nov 7, 20141 votes

Is there any chance at all that you can change his W casting so that if it's cast outside max range he walks over so he can cast the soldier where you wanted it to be cast instead of just at max cast range?

KilaneNov 16, 20142 votes

If you gonna do that then

his cooldown on q and e are way too long in early game (and late game even)
his optimal escape costs way too much
his mana sustain early is non existent and his dmg is very minor.
he can't chase and follow up gank whatsoever unless they got rooted in place in the early stage of the game. Something should be done about this.
fix the bug on w aa.
his q projectile is actually quite slow, make it faster.

I would be willing to ramp down his soldier ap ratio to 0.5 if you solve all those factor

and also

make his base dmg of w dmg +ap ratio so that his total dmg deals around 75-85 dmg per hit so that he can cs like adc in bot lane.

And for godsake, his winrate is like at 42-45%. There is no need to nerf his dmg source and give a puny little buf on other area. His lvl 1 still suck!

PotatoMineNov 19, 20141 votes

I'll test it myself on the PBE seeing as I do play Azir a good amount, then give a more experienced driven response at a later date. But I don't think the 20 extra HP is not going to change much. I'd rather see a lower cool down on it(I like myself some mobility) but if your going for a small increase in power with this one then it does that. It will not have much effect on how he is played, but will give him a little more power in a place I do agree he could use more in. I like the idea behind the solders and Q changes.

Are these the right numbers? IDK, that's what testing is for.

Edit: Wording

Duke AnaxNov 19, 20142 votes

Meddler how can you guys even know whether any of his plays are too strong/weak, when his kit has never even worked once since he was released?

Those buff/nerf could be completely misplaced once his bugs are fixed.

jaylinnùwúNov 6, 20145 votes

The main problem still holding Azir back is the amount of crippling bugs regarding his soldiers. They finally seem to have fixed some issues with his ult and its detection on enemy heroes and gap closers, but his soldiers still stop responding and attacking at that crucial moment you really need them to.(Mostly happens when you throw them into bushes and you are not in one)

ILoveTiramisuNov 5, 20143 votes

nerf? I see more buff than nerf.

Nausicäa Nov 5, 20148 votes

nerf? I see more buff than nerf.

W is his main damage source. You're losing 10 damage per 100 ap per auto attack of a soldier.

You're gaining 15 base damage on Q which has a 6 second CD at 40% CDR.

How exactly do you see a buff here?

ILoveTiramisuNov 5, 20145 votes

It's called balance. They buffs early game and nerf late game.

Raja ChachkiNov 16, 20141 votes

Ya cuz for real Azir lategame to stronk. He can kill enemies in their fountain....with ease sometimes(if they're a good Azir).

LilRoosterDec 8, 20141 votes

If you consider 15 mins early game then his early game is nerfed

DEmperor95Nov 6, 20141 votes

Q has a 3.6 second CD at 40% CDR actually, not 6 seconds.

Hex the FenFenNov 5, 20143 votes

Nerf, buff, I don't care. Azir is a very strong champion with A LOT of good base early game damage and a crap ton of safety. Y'all thought Zyra was too safe and OP? Are you kidding me? Zyra had a CC she had to rely on in order to do her burst and sustain damage. Azir is annoyingly safe and very strong. So i feel the changes to him are pretty welcomed by most. The reason we do not see many Azirs in game is probably because he is buggy and frustrating to play.

Nausicäa Nov 5, 20145 votes

Azir is a very strong champion with A LOT of good base early game damage and a crap ton of safety.

Uh Azir's early game is pretty bad and weak, you clearly dont know what you're talking about.

Hex the FenFenNov 5, 20141 votes

But he really isn't....since most mid laners are either melee or close range auto attackers now-a-days, he truly shines as a poke champion, and his poke HURTS, because of the amount he can do and the way it is executed. Azir is powerful, I guess you just haven't seen a good one yet? Or maybe a lot of people with a different playstyle? Or runes?

Nausicäa Nov 5, 20143 votes

But he really isn't....since most mid laners are either melee or close range auto attackers now-a-days False

You play normals, you dont even play ranked and if you did you'd likely be bronze, sorry it seems a bit ridiculous for you to be making assertions about balance.

Hex the FenFenNov 6, 20142 votes

I'm Silver 5, way to be salty. And I know plenty about balance, it is you who does not, calm yourself. Rank also means nothing. Since the Ranked aspect of LoL is not just based on skill but your allies as well.

YEE boiNov 6, 20141 votes

yes the real reason people are in silver is because of their teammates

KilaneNov 16, 20141 votes

Question, you can only up your soldier 1st level and each hit, it deals around 50 + ap ratio = ~60-80 magic dmg. If you manage to bypass the soldier, he deals only his physical aa dmg and that would only be 50 physical dmg.

The soldier att speed depend on your champ attack speed and usually he starts at 0.65.

How is that dmg good early?

It's like you cost 40 mana to do normal adc dmg at extra range.

bL7Nov 6, 20141 votes

The goal of these changes is to buff Azir's early game and reduce his late game strength, theory being that Azir currently gets shut down too hard sometimes early, but is an absolute monster late game.

^ From a Riot employee himself.

http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/39865857

Dat lolking tho.

Don't post on gameplay/balance boards 'till you know what you're talking about. Nobody respects someone who a gives clearly wrong assessment.

Kowe The EwokNov 6, 20143 votes

The best Azir buff would simply be increasing the projectile speed of his Q. I continiously have enemy champions outrun my Q in a straight line when my soldiers are too far away.

This is all buffing he needs, no damage or shield changes.

ZaikyoNov 16, 20143 votes

People are going to call him underpowered until LCS time, when Bjergson goes bigbird all over everyone. Then it will outcries for nerfs. Cycle of nerfs and buffs continues, people formerly known as summoners.

ZarxisNov 5, 20142 votes

All I want Riot to do with Azir is fix his bugs (soldiers sometimes still fail to attack and/or animate when attacking, right clicking anywhere near destroyed turrets sometimes causes Azir to activate his passive) and change his W and Q functionality. W throws out soldiers in the direction of your cursor. I want Azir to walk towards where I specify a soldier should be placed, and then place the soldier once he's within W range of that location. Doesn't Heimerdinger walk to within placement range of the location where your cursor was when you pressed Q? Q forces Azir to walk to a location that will put him at a range that will allow him to throw at least one soldier to your cursor. It should throw the soldier as far as possible in the direction of your cursor instead of forcing Azir to move. Does Heimerdinger move to a location where he can throw his W to exactly where your mouse cursor is? I'm fairly sure he simply fires his W in the direction of your cursor.

Nausicäa Nov 5, 20141 votes

All I want Riot to do with Azir is fix his bugs (soldiers sometimes still fail to attack and/or animate when attacking, right clicking anywhere near destroyed turrets sometimes causes Azir to activate his passive) and change his W and Q functionality. W throws out soldiers in the direction of your cursor. I want Azir to walk towards where I specify a soldier should be placed, and then place the soldier once he's within W range of that location. Doesn't Heimerdinger walk to within placement range of the location where your cursor was when you pressed Q? Q forces Azir to walk to a location that will put him at a range that will allow him to throw at least one soldier to your cursor. It should throw the soldier as far as possible in the direction of your cursor instead of forcing Azir to move. Does Heimerdinger move to a location where he can throw his W to exactly where your mouse cursor is? I'm fairly sure he simply fires his W in the direction of your cursor.

Ya i agree with you that the implementation of Q in particular is a little bit clunky. Its very hard to know how far your soldiers will travel. You basically have to guess i often find my soldiers coming up short, there should be something in place to make this more intuitive.

Still id like either an explanation for these nerfs or for them to be reverted.

HitsFromTheBombDec 8, 20141 votes

All I want Riot to do with Azir is fix his bugs (soldiers sometimes still fail to attack and/or animate when attacking, right clicking anywhere near destroyed turrets sometimes causes Azir to activate his passive) and change his W and Q functionality. W throws out soldiers in the direction of your cursor. I want Azir to walk towards where I specify a soldier should be placed, and then place the soldier once he's within W range of that location. Doesn't Heimerdinger walk to within placement range of the location where your cursor was when you pressed Q? Q forces Azir to walk to a location that will put him at a range that will allow him to throw at least one soldier to your cursor. It should throw the soldier as far as possible in the direction of your cursor instead of forcing Azir to move. Does Heimerdinger move to a location where he can throw his W to exactly where your mouse cursor is? I'm fairly sure he simply fires his W in the direction of your cursor.

no heimer doesnt work that way , he walks to within range of where you clicked.

Wehrmacht BunnyNov 5, 20142 votes

Shame they are nerfing a champion rarely seen in the game as it is. I am starting to believe that Riot nerfs the underpowered champions but keeps all the OP ones right where they are.

BlackRavenNov 6, 20141 votes

Shame they are nerfing a champion rarely seen in the game as it is. I am starting to believe that Riot nerfs the underpowered champions but keeps all the OP ones right where they are.

but when he was seen, and being played by a decent azir player, he completely shut down any ad that set foot mid. his poke is insane and he is able to destroy enemy champs before they even get sight of him. they nerfed him for a reason and if you actually played vs him you would know that reason.

KilaneNov 16, 20141 votes

By pass his soldiers when he just move them with his q else where. OP ZERO DMG he can do!

AloneInTheCrowdNov 5, 20142 votes

All i see is that his ultimate doesn't do anything right now , how much time it'll take RiTo to fix this we will never know .

Kowe The EwokNov 6, 20142 votes

I would rather keep him as he is....

That's a rather significant nerf traded for a rather ignoreable buff considering which abilities you're maxing / relying most on.

Toshihik0Nov 6, 20142 votes

Oh i see, i just don't get why nerf his late game when 4.19 patch removed his ultimate and added a couple bugs to make him harder to use. Rito logic 3 deep 5 me.

Solidair3Nov 6, 20141 votes

Is he even actually underpowered?

Now that most of his bugs are fixed and people are getting used to him I've been seeing a lot of Azir doing insane damage.

ShurleNov 6, 20142 votes

His bugs are definitely not all fixed though... Ult is worse this patch.

Solidair3Nov 6, 20141 votes

His bugs are definitely not all fixed though... Ult is worse this patch.

Believe me, I know. But the majority of his other bugs are fixed, and I'm sure riot will hotfix his ult.

Wehrmacht BunnyNov 6, 20141 votes

His bugs are definitely not all fixed though... Ult is worse this patch.

Believe me, I know. But the majority of his other bugs are fixed, and I'm sure riot will hotfix his ult.

Not really. His Bugs seem a lot worse this patch. Last patch I was actually able to use the wall to somewhat effectiveness, now it doesn't even faze anyone most of the time. The thing that annoys me the most though, is how his Q from time to time will just go through people and won't even damage them.

I can't believe RIOT released a champion that is still in early Alpha.

MorthidNov 6, 20141 votes

On a typical start with a dorans (15 ap) and Glyph of ability power (1.29 = 10.8) or 3 AP quints (34.95=14.85) Azir W does 50+75%AP at level 1. So just each auto attack with let's say a modest 45 AP after masteries and runes is gonna deal 50+(.745) = 81.5 base damage. Now add in MR at lvl 1 of oh let's 45 which is roughly a 31% reduction in AP damage. So 81.5.31 = 25.29 reduction OR You hit with roughly 56... keep in mind there's no Magic pen yet.

So basically each hit you have with a soldier does 56 damage (likely more) on average.

At level 2 you get Q. Q does 60+50% ability power... or without all the math base is 67.5. After MRAbout 47. So your Q plus just one auto attack does a little over 100 damage. Most mid champs start out with what? Roughly 500-600 health? SO you need only land 3-4 Q+auto attacks to zone someone completely out. Keep in mind you're at a safe distance? I think we were find early game with the exception of being mana starved...which forces you to either go mana regen or go after a Rod of Ages early. This is a nerf overall in my opinion.

championmaggotJan 23, 20151 votes

bad nerf. straight up this is just a bad nerf. Azir was god end game but i guess riot didnt think it was balanced when if you play enough aram youd see just how rampant the imbal;ance is in league. unless you use one of the ten champs that makes riot the most money(all their talk about "strategic diversity" is a joke) youll always be playing over nerfed champs. SAince azir only has one skin he must not be making riot as much money as they hoped so he gets nerfed by riot and shelved by the community meanwhile new ahri and thresh skins you guys. I main as a azir and the nerf that this is makes me want to stop playing lol because all the time and effort i've put into figuring out azir, with all the bugs and doing good with him, and then this bs happens....thanks for the screw job riot my butt hole feels great....probably not the most logical argument but damn I am steamed up over this nerf. Azir is practically useless with the nerf. I used to win 68 % of my azir games now its less then 40%. to me it seems like riot think like this "Azir is winning to often he better get nerfed before we piss off all the people who play blitzcrank." like damn theres some champs that deserve and need a nerf way before azir coughsnidaleecoughs. They haven't even really fixed the bugs azir has had since day one but they still nerf him this hard so as to not upset the established meta(?). The inane ramblings of a disenfranchised azir player.....