@Ghostcrawler, you've been putting off fighters for long enough

FalconPawwwwnch·Jul 28, 2015·68 votes·3,713 views

Since 2012, Riot has reworked Ap itemization twice, support items multiple times, introduced multiple items for tanks, and even reworked ADC itemization. Where is the fighter item rework? The only item you've made for ad fighters in the last 3 years is the new black cleaver.

Frozen Mallet is a sick joke compared to the bordenline overpowered Rylai's in terms of efficiency, Maw is heavily outclassed by Zhonya's in terms of stat efficiency, there's no ad/armor item for melee champions while AP champions have abyssal.

The itemization wasn't always this bad. In fact it used to be extremely good. Fighters used to have the following: An AD/armor item (Atma's) An AS/armor item (Bloodrazor) An AS/MR item (Wit's End)

Do you know what the above 3 have in common? All of them have either been nerfed to the point where 1-2 champions even buy them, or outright removed from the game.

You know why AP bruisers scale way better on average than AD ones? Because Champions like Darius and Garen have to choose between items that give them full damage or tanking abilities, while champions like Singed and Rumble and Diana get insanely efficient AP items that give them tankiness and damage at the same time. Rumble and Singed can end up with close to 500 AP and be just as tanky as someone like Darius because Rylai's/Liandry's/Abyssal/Zhonyas etc.

It's absurd really. This needs to be fixed

56 Comments

LlaniteJul 28, 20155 votes

It's definitely tricky.

Fighter is half-tank half-dps, which makes they jack of all trade. Since they have another expense, they need better gold efficiency, but if their items were buffed, other roles who will go after those and ruin traditional build path. I don't see how this can be done without a way to limited their access.

Critmaster GarenJul 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It's definitely tricky.

Fighter is half-tank half-dps, which makes they jack of all trade. Since they have another expense, they need better gold efficiency, but if their items were buffed, other roles who will go after those and ruin traditional build path. I don't see how this can be done without a way to limited their access.

its not THAT tricky.

we just need more "melee only" offensive items. i actually felt almost insulted, when they made ghostblade (a traditional fighter item) available for ranged ad and then planned on nerfing the item a couple patches later, when they - suprise - realized that some ranged ad are too strong with the item.

i mean it worked pretty well with hydra as a dedicated fighter item, just by restricting it to melees. i honestly dont understand why they didnt build up on that concept when it obviously worked.

LlaniteJul 28, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k1X8fE2R,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2015-07-28T12:11:40.678+0000)

its not THAT tricky.

we just need more "melee only" offensive items. i actually felt almost insulted, when they made ghostblade (a traditional fighter item) available for ranged ad and then planned on nerfing the item a couple patches later, when they - suprise - realized that some ranged ad are too strong with the item.

i mean it worked pretty well with hydra as a dedicated fighter item, just by restricting it to melees. i honestly dont understand why they didnt build up on that concept when it obviously worked.

Then Yi, Tryn and Fiora will start taking it and abuse their already-too-good free stats.

Critmaster GarenJul 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Then Yi, Tryn and Fiora will start taking it and abuse their already-too-good free stats.

depends. those champions already have pretty much optimal build pathes available to them.

i mean only in fioras case it could get a little bit crazy with an ad deathcap, considering how much her % true damage scales off raw ad. she basically only needs 2 stats with ad and cdr. she doesnt even need much armor pen.

but i cant imagine something like pillager being more useful to either of them, than what they already have available.

MessaigaJul 28, 20155 votes

A problem with the fighter class is that it's very diverse (champions range from things to Yi and Fiora, to Renekton/Nasus). This makes it difficult to define a niche that the fighter class is good at. When you think of a tank you think Difficult to kill and powerful CC. When you think of a mage you generally think massive amounts of magic damage, in either an AOE () or focused onto one target ( Malzahar ). Marksman are ranged champions usually designed around maximum possible DPS. Assassins are champions with huge burst damage and great mobility.

The issue of fighters is that they take some qualities of tanks (hard to kill, CC), some qualities of assassins (burst damage, mobility), and a quality of every marksman (DPS). My personal belief on this is that having DPS, Burst, and tanking on one champion is the main issue. Fighters should not have much burst (because they are tanky). Instead, most fighters should be based upon decent DPS, good tankiness, decent mobility, and not very much CC. The better your DPS, the less tanky you should be.

That is not to say other problems do not exist in the fighter class. Many of these champions are very reliant on raw stats to do well (Jax, Trundle, Irelia, Udyr, etc). As Riot has labeled them in the past, "Balls of Stats champions".

My favorite example of a well designed fighter champion would have to be Wukong. Aside from Wukong having fairly strong burst, he's a great example of a fighter. Passive and his R makes his teamfight very good, Q is nice for harass in lane and amplifies his damage through armor shred, E is a simple gap closer + steroid. His W is a very unique thing, as it gives you room to escape through smart movement in the short amount of time you have. At the same time, it could also be used to tank a spell as you flee. It also can allow you to engage sneakily. Lastly, you can fake your usage of it if you're smart enough. This spell alone has so many different uses for different scenarios despite being relatively simple in concept.

A not well designed fighter? I'd say Aatrox. Aatrox is kind of your generic fighter. He has decent dps, decent burst, has built in healing, poke, gap-closer + knock-up, TWO attack speed steroids, and then his revive passive. There is no reason you'd pick him over any other fighter (unless you seek to get ahead in most of your matches and use his toxicity when ahead). If you wanted healing, why not play Trundle, Warwick, Irelia, Mundo, etc? If you wanted initiate why not Wukong, Hecarim, or basically any tank? His splitpushing and dueling is easily outclassed by Tryndamere and Nasus. The only thing unique to him among the fighter class is his revive passive, which admittedly is nice (and allows for otherwise risky tower-dives and such).

The fighter class itself probably needs a massive overhaul (and redefinition). But the amount of time and resources required to do so is immense.

dangopeeJul 28, 20153 votes

Yeah they really need to do something about Mallet cost and build path. Another thing I hate is MR is so useless against sustained %hp magic damage.

Critmaster GarenJul 28, 20153 votes

ive already made the suggestion a couple times to introduce a hatchet item on summoners rift.

ideally in combination with armor, to kindof fill the void the old atmas left. the advantage of hatchet is that its passive works in a way, where you crit about once every 3 seconds, youre already using it to the fullest potenial. since it lasts 3 seconds, you dont have to crit more often over that duration to re apply it.

this means, adc cant abuse the item and get more out of it than fighters who usually build less crit chance with the 10% off triforce and maybe a ghostblade tops.

something like item 3122 + item 1031 + item 1037 and then have a beefed up version of that for a passive. like 120 magic damage over 3 seconds. (in similar range of sunfire cape).

or have the passive damage even scale with bonus hp.

no ad scaling for the passive, so adc wont get anything out of it.

HopeslayerJul 28, 20153 votes

dont forget they removed the AD item that lowers targets healing, which makes it pretty hard to kill a mundo or fed swain they also removed the guaranteed crit on next 3 (?) hits item.

there is only 1 crit item with a decent amount of ad attached to it (IE) on rift that is, they need to bring the crit bleed item to rift.

its funny i remember so many people brown nosing ghostcrawler when he showed up, and yet since then the game is getting worse with each patch, these gangplank / fiora reworks are great examples of ghostcrawlers work. he loves taking unique things and ruining them, or just making everything the same as some other champ.

GP lost his Q applying passive (and a really bad new passive), and his team speed boost ruining his ability to be a decent backup support, Fiora is losing her iconic ultimate and getting some terrible replacement. and lets not forget veigars new HEY LOOK AT THIS BIG EASY TO AVOID THING THAT YOU SHOULD MOVE AWAY FROM change.

if you ever played WoW you would notice how all the classes slowly became morphed together with slightly different abilities instead of being unique picks.

the only rework that wasnt a huge disaster was sion, only because his old kit was just really bad unless you wanted to be an AP sion troll

and why does fiora get a rework before yorick or urgot, how long do yorick and urgot have to not be played before they get some love? sure urgot got a surge of playtime when his shield was scaled off mana, but that surge didnt last long.

Critmaster GarenJul 28, 201519 votes

{quoted}

its funny i remember so many people brown nosing ghostcrawler when he showed up, and yet since then the game is getting worse with each patch, these gangplank / fiora reworks are great examples of ghostcrawlers work. he loves taking unique things and ruining them, or just making everything the same as some other champ.

i have to say, with the exception of the heal on fioras new ultimate (which isnt even bad, its actually pretty strong. just thematically awkward to slap a support ability onto her r) both reworks are exceptionally well done.

if played as a carry (especially critplank), gangplank is without a doubt much stronger than before. and hes more interesting, than running up to his opponent, hit him with a q crit and run away again. he now has waveclear, can even use his barrels as wards, can hit enemies with a q on steroids by shooting at barrels and has unique upgrades for his ult.

HopeslayerJul 28, 20151 votes

its so easy for the enemy to beat GP to the barrel hit with Q delay, and GP being melee on top of that. the increased decay is actually a bad thing sometimes late game

Critmaster GarenJul 28, 20158 votes

{quoted}

its so easy for the enemy to beat GP to the barrel hit with Q delay, and GP being melee on top of that. the increased decay is actually a bad thing sometimes late game

ive seen some gangplanks manage their barrels to crazy effect. they usually just throw a barrel ino a bush or down at their feet, just outside vision of the enemy. and then they throw a barrel directly on top of their opponent, and q the one in front of them to extend the range over to the second barrel.

this chain is usually too fast for the enemy to take the second barrel out before they get hit by the explosion.

barrels can also be destroyed to trigger the rage passive on triforce and give him some extra mobility when running back into lane or between lanes.

ive seen some ad carry/critplanks who managed the barrels well and took a pretty nasty dump on the enemy team.

yea, there is micro management. and now and then an opponent will take a barrel out. but timing them properly, you get a fucking aoe parrley with 60% armor pen out of them.

ArknaJul 28, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k1X8fE2R,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2015-07-28T02:08:10.688+0000)

ive seen some gangplanks manage their barrels to crazy effect. they usually just throw a barrel ino a bush or down at their feet, just outside vision of the enemy. and then they throw a barrel directly on top of their opponent, and q the one in front of them to extend the range over to the second barrel.

this chain is usually too fast for the enemy to take the second barrel out before they get hit by the explosion.

barrels can also be destroyed to trigger the rage passive on triforce and give him some extra mobility when running back into lane or between lanes.

ive seen some ad carry/critplanks who managed the barrels well and took a pretty nasty dump on the enemy team.

yea, there is micro management. and now and then an opponent will take a barrel out. but timing them properly, you get a fucking aoe parrley with 60% armor pen out of them.

Don't forget that it resets his passive.

Spicy RiceJul 28, 20154 votes

I like how people talk about how his passive is shitty, yet they forget it does 20 + 10xGangplanks level + 120% bonus ad in TRUE DAMAGE over 1.5 secs. With 0 bonus ad, at level 18, its already doing 200 true damage and gets reset when you pop a barrel. Now imagine a gangplank with 200 bonus ad. His passive alone will do 440 True damage over 1.5 secs

Hard4HamstersJul 28, 20153 votes

I wonder if they'll bring back the Randuin's rework that was on the PBE a few months ago. In all honesty it favored some champions more than others, but it was definitely more fighter centric than Tank centric as an item when it was available. The active allowed you to "steal" attack speed from champions that were in the AOE slow (the slow was flat instead of scaling off of bonus armor/mr as well), so it mostly favored champions like Irelia JarvanIV Jax Shyvana RekSai but it was definitely more favorable on these fighters than many of the tanks you see who use the item. It wouldn't really help more caster oriented fighters like Pantheon Renekton Garen as much though. I think it was a step in the right direction as far as fighter itemization though.

Not to mention that the new BC is actually a really good AD fighter item as it provides ample CDR, AD, and Health as well as armor shred that is useful in supporting your team and amplifying your own damage. We see some champions thriving with this new item: MonkeyKing Darius Garen Urgot Yorick though for some, the old BC was maybe a better investment for the ability to hold onto Brutalizer for the early game.

These are steps in the right direction, but I do think that more variety in itemization should be explored.

I will say this though. AD fighters don't really need more than one damage item in most situations. Building AD is more efficient than building AP as it affects AA's and abilities alike whereas in most situations, AP only affects abilities. AP bruiser itemization did get a lot better with this overhaul of AP items, but before that it was very weak, and I still don't think it's in a great spot.

With Rumble, Singed, and Diana, you are looking at the champions themselves as to why they are moderately tanky while building AP. Diana has a shield that scales well off of AP and doesn't have heavy mana problems, allowing her to rush Abyssal and Zhonya's early. This coupled with her naturally high hp and armor, make her appear very tanky as she can build AP and resists at the same time, making her a very strong midgame champion. The same is very much true for Rumble as he has no mana and he scales very well with penetration allowing him to build Haunting Guise and the other mentioned items without really sacrificing on damage. Singed hp scales off of mana, making RoA the most efficient item for him. So he gets the most HP for his buck along with a good amount of AP. He can build Liandry's and Rylai's because he receives free resists with his ult.

Looking at other champions you might consider: Chogath, Swain, Vlad, Ryze all have access to great use of RoA or have extra stats in the case of Chogath and Vlad and great sustain/spellvamp in their kits to make them seem tankier, but they are usually just a lot of HP without many resists so are easily blown up if they get caught.

We can look at AD champions and see similar things in some of them where you can see why they can build the way they do. Riven for example is like Diana or Rumble in that she has a shield that scales off of AD which is what you want to build as a fighter. You have Gnar who during his Mega form has a lot of HP, AD, and resists coming in like Singed's insanity potion; allowing him to build Black Cleaver, Frozen Mallet, and Maw without losing out on a lot of tankiness. Fiora, who was more of a Carry, was like Vlad or Ryze with all of the lifesteal and hp regen she gains (this has been since changed with her rework). Garen has 20% bonus resists AND 30% damage reduction on his W allowing him to build very heavily in offense and not be lacking in tankiness (he can be kited like crazy though). Triforce users like Hec, Irelia, or Jax usually can make do with that one damage item and still be really tanky thanks to aspects of their kit and the additional items they end up building.

I DO think that Ad fighter itemization needs to be better optimized with Frozen Mallet being one of the things I feel need a complete rework especially now that slow stacking is no longer possible. I also think that AP fighter/offtank itemization still needs work as in most situations, it's either better to build full tank or full AP and those who can be tanky while building a lot of AP items are exceptions, just like there are exceptions to AD fighters who can amass a lot of AD items and still be fairly tanky. There is a big difference in AD fighters and AP fighters as AP champions usually can't build one AP item and go tank afterwards like AD champions can build one AD item and still be effective when building full tank afterwards.

Sorry for the long post. Peace.

Critmaster GarenJul 28, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=MyNamesAmsToki ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k1X8fE2R,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2015-07-28T02:39:00.489+0000)

I wonder if they'll bring back the Randuin's rework that was on the PBE a few months ago. In all honesty it favored some champions more than others, but it was definitely more fighter centric than Tank centric as an item when it was available. The active allowed you to "steal" attack speed from champions that were in the AOE slow (the slow was flat instead of scaling off of bonus armor/mr as well), so it mostly favored champions like but it was definitely more favorable on these fighters than many of the tanks you see who use the item. It wouldn't really help more caster oriented fighters like as much though. I think it was a step in the right direction as far as fighter itemization though.

ive honestly seen that version as a terrible idea, because ranged ad would end up just getting randuins as their one defensive item, and abuse it against the same champions you mentioned.

just slapping attack speed or attack speed steal on randuins would cause them to abuse the as steroid and slow to kite the same champions youre trying to help out. imagine a jinx just using the item against a jax whos trying to fight her. he wouldnt stand a chance.

Hard4HamstersJul 28, 20151 votes

Yeah. I forgot to mention that. I think it was actually scrapped for a reason. It was probably being abused by carries to get a huge steroid. And not just for Marksmen, but for champions such as Master Yi or the aforementioned Irelia, Jax, and Shyvanna.

I think it was a good item in theory and that's why I was wondering if they would revisit it as a possibility to make a defensive item that heavily favored fighters over tanks. I do think there were problems in the Randuin's rework proposed, but I think there was a little bit of gating for ADC's (marksmen) as they would have to get major damage items first and if they were to get Randuin's as their one defensive item, they would be much more vulnerable to Magic damage which has more ability to burst them down quickly.

I don't think your example is very good btw. No offense, but Jax has his Dodge mechanic on his Counterstrike to negate any of the AA's that Jinx would throw at him when it is active, and would result in a stun. He would most likely have a Randuin's at this point too, so he would counter her Randuin's with his own and be faster than her thanks to his Triforce. He also does a lot of mixed damage and an ADC with Randuin's would have very low MR. Jax f***s up ADC's, it's what he does. A better example would be champions that are more prone to kiting such as Garen Udyr Trundle as this item would kite them even better.

Anyway. I agree with you. The Randuin's that was proposed was probably too easy to abuse by champions it was not meant to benefit. And for that reason, it was probably scrapped. But I think it was still a step in the right direction for AD fighter itemization. Peace.

Critmaster GarenJul 28, 20152 votes

how about a fighter item, that starts with 10 tenacity and gains 10 more for each crowd control effect you get hit by? up to something pretty high like 70 or 80 total? and after like 10 seconds not being affected by cc, the buff falls off again.

ive been thinking about how cc works in other games, and especially the problem of locking someone down entirely with cc to the point where youre basically unable to play the game (immobile fighters vs an anivia in the enemy team, or cc heavy teams in general).

and some games work around the issue by putting diminishing returns on crowd control effects, so you cant lock someone down and kite him forever.

an increasing tenacity buff for each cc effect you get hit by would be a way to attach an effect like this to an item.

aaronconlinJul 28, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k1X8fE2R,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-07-28T00:51:36.161+0000)

how about a fighter item, that starts with 10 tenacity and gains 10 more for each crowd control effect you get hit by? up to something pretty high like 70 or 80 total? and after like 10 seconds not being affected by cc, the buff falls off again.

ive been thinking about how cc works in other games, and especially the problem of locking someone down entirely with cc to the point where youre basically unable to play the game (immobile fighters vs an anivia in the enemy team, or cc heavy teams in general).

and some games work around the issue by putting diminishing returns on crowd control effects, so you cant lock someone down and kite him forever.

an increasing tenacity buff for each cc effect you get hit by would be a way to attach an effect like this to an item.

Irelia would be immune to cc

Critmaster GarenJul 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

would be immune to cc

actually since shes already much less affected by cc the difference would simply be less. than for more immobile fighters.

think about it this way. tenacity stacks multiplicative. lets say she gets hit by an ashe until the item would stack up to 70%. those 40% from her passive with 3 people around would barely make a difference at that point.

also, there is the worthwile thought of just giving her a different passive.

ElJanitorFrankJul 29, 20152 votes

Here's a quote from Meddler roughly 20 minutes ago:

So far we're happy with how the AP changes have gone, which bodes well for the fighter/general defense item changes coming soon.

There was other stuff in there I didn't read because I'm a lazy fuck.

XxxLumberJackxxXJul 29, 20152 votes

But fighter items are being overhauled!

Meanwhile ADC items Meanwhile AP items Meanwhile Black Cleaver 2.0 Meanwhile Black CLeaver 3.0

DONT WORRY FIGHTER ITEMS ARE BEING OVERHAULED

Only Play DariusJul 28, 20151 votes

Yea, AD caster/bruiser itemization is shit compared to what the AP's get. Remove Zed 's passive and create an AD version of Deathcap, and fix 90% of the problems in one go.

Critmaster GarenJul 28, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k1X8fE2R,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-07-28T00:58:25.395+0000)

Yea, AD caster/bruiser itemization is shit compared to what the AP's get. Remove 's passive and create an AD version of Deathcap, and fix 90% of the problems in one go.

and completely break ranged adc in the process. well. more than they already are. this would especially be a terrible idea with the upcoming fiora in mind.

FluppetsJul 28, 20153 votes

item 3031

This is the AD version of Deathcap.

IamawalrusJul 28, 20151 votes

That's limited to autoattackers

FluppetsJul 28, 20152 votes

But AD already works for both AD Scaling spells AND auto attacks.

so the 35% from rabadon only works on spells, if u had an AD amplifier ud have extra AA damage AND your AD spells...

The Yetii RiderJul 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

But AD already works for both AD Scaling spells AND auto attacks.

so the 35% from rabadon only works on spells, if u had an AD amplifier ud have extra AA damage AND your AD spells...

Kayle, Teemo, Diana, Sona, Lulu, Ekko, Elise, Rumble, Lich Bane, Nashor's Tooth, Azir. The argument that AP champions can't get their huge steroids on autos doesn't hold up when Riot keeps making champions and items that ignore that restriction.

FluppetsJul 28, 20151 votes

That's literally "the exceptions make up the rule".

The runeglaive abuse cases were champions with AP with full magic damage on Auto Attacks. So if you want to know why there isnt a rabadon for AD, that's why. You cant have full damage scaling items like rabadon on both spells and auto attacks.

The Yetii RiderJul 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

That's literally "the exceptions make up the rule".

The runeglaive abuse cases were champions with AP with full magic damage on Auto Attacks. So if you want to know why there isnt a rabadon for AD, that's why. You cant have full damage scaling items like rabadon on both spells and auto attacks.

Considering there is nothing stopping any AP champion from building Lich Bane and most AP builds end up around twice as high as any given AD build, I'd say that the problem exists on the AP side but not the AD side.

FluppetsJul 28, 20151 votes

At this point I think you're trolling me. Go read my previous reply again, no need to repeat myself.

Kuroi86Jul 29, 20151 votes

Outside of Elise, I dare you to pick any AP champ, build Nashor's and full AP, then proceed to try and 1v1 a full build ADC with the both of you only using auto attacks. Meanwhile I'm going to sit back and laugh my butt off.

The Yetii RiderJul 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Outside of Elise, I dare you to pick any AP champ, build Nashor's and full AP, then proceed to try and 1v1 a full build ADC with the both of you only using auto attacks. Meanwhile I'm going to sit back and laugh my butt off.

Diana and Ekko can both do it easy. Full AP? That includes Zhonyas for 50 armor, and with that 80% AP shield Ekko can laugh off any attacks the ADC has. And if he happens to get low, press R and boom, that damage was gone.

Kuroi86Jul 30, 20151 votes

You seemed to miss the part where I said ONLY USING AUTO ATTACKS...

The Yetii RiderJul 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You seemed to miss the part where I said ONLY USING AUTO ATTACKS...

Right, like any marksman uses only their auto attacks to get kills. Vayne flies around in stealth, Ashe has a free stun, Jinx can snare and poke for more damage than her autos, Tristana has a huge AS steroid...none of them can only get kills with full AD and their autos either. The question is pointless.

Kuroi86Jul 30, 20151 votes

none of them can only get kills with full AD and their autos either. The question is pointless.

Kayle, Teemo, Diana, Sona, Lulu, Ekko, Elise, Rumble, Lich Bane, Nashor's Tooth, Azir. The argument that AP champions can't get their huge steroids on autos doesn't hold up when Riot keeps making champions and items that ignore that restriction.

The point is that you made a claim that anyone that has done their research on will tell you is bs. If it were feasible for an AP champ to match an ADC in DPS then you would see said champ get spammed into oblivion until nerfed to hell and back. AP focuses more around burst than DPS, where as AD allows for both possibilities.
The only champ that used to be able to put out near ADC level DPS was Kayle and that got nerfed right out.

Zair UmbrasJul 28, 20151 votes

Overall, AD itemization isn't too bad, but it does need some items to help out the mana-based champions. The best we have is Manamune and Essence Reaver, both of which are undertuned quite heavily with how Essence only gives mana based on your ATTACK'S damage and gives a % of that based on YOUR MISSING mana, so it does 2-8% based on your missing mana OF your Auto Attack's Damage. While it gives CDR on top of LS, it can't compete with the raw sustain of a BT or the huge damage of a BotRK. Manamune simply takes forever to stack, barely gives any AD, even when you've got it maxed and have other mana items. Unless you're getting over 3k mana as an AD, which isn't going to happen a good majority of the time, it barely gives anything and when you finally have it stacked, it then siphons your mana, doing damage based on your current mana, so on top of being a POOR item as a base Manamune, the Muramana then does a very low amount of damage. Ezreal, at max, gets about 1k mana and with a Mura, he has 2k mana. He does 6% of his current mana, a max of 120 extra damage at the cost of 3% of his mana, which would be 60 mana for 120 damage. On a normal caster though since nearly every AD caster is AoE, like Talon, they wouldn't even be able to USE that proc since it's Single Target only. Which is what really makes it such a... useless item.

Silents429Jul 28, 20151 votes

ad/armor item for melee champions Because Champions like Darius and Garen have to choose between items that give them full damage or tanking abilities

Are you even aware what happens when you combine those two? Garen and Darius vastly out damage any AP bruiser, as most AD bruisers do, giving them items that are hybrids is a breeding ground of problems to occur, especially in the case of Atmas which could allow someone building tank full tank to have damage that rivals the ADC while being unkillable.

The entire point of not having a niche there is to force these champions to choose and that's why it's balanced.

iainB85Jul 28, 20151 votes

Because the concept of a fighter is broken to begin with. Champions who are squishy but deal damage, or are tanky but don't deal damage are easy to balance around. A champion who is supposed to be "tanky enough" but "still do damage" is far harder to balance, if it's even possible.

RetillinJul 28, 20151 votes

But Ghostcrawler only seems to answer questions on his ask.fm. Why should he use the official boards (or even reddit) when he can use a 3rd party site to cherry pick his questions? (Not that cherry picking questions is always a bad thing)

Vistha KaiJul 28, 20151 votes

SoonTM

ErockandrollJul 28, 20151 votes

What do you mean by Fighters? Are we talking Melee ADCs, or AD casters? Are we talking Tanky Bruisers, or swift light fighters?

And lastly, what should fighters Accomplish that is Healthy? Cause last time Fighters were in a good spot. Jax was considered to be a must ban, late game split pusher god. A good chunk of Bruisers are already fair since they have enough catch potential and enough damage to target a squishy.

But wait until the Black Market Brawler's experiment. Their appears to be a fair amount of items that might help fighters.

Critmaster GarenJul 28, 20152 votes

{quoted}

But wait until the Black Market Brawler's experiment. Their appears to be a fair amount of items that might help fighters.

theyre all going to be invalidated by vayne with typhoon claws.

if vayne and kallista arent going to get individual balance treatment, theyre just going to break the mode with that item. no discussion. none of the fighter items ive seen for that mode will remotely compare to that.

vayne might even just go devourer with typhoon claws and build the rest tank for shits and giggles.

i actually found the fighter items for that mode rather disappointing. a lot of the ap items, and the adc items look extremely strong from the start. you can get them by 10 minutes and have a power spike. and then there is flesh eater, which has to be farmed up for 20 minutes until its actually as op as the other items.

and not because it has some particularly interesting effect, but only because it becomes op in cost effectiveness. its basically a cheap bloodthirster with less lifesteal.

rG ThundragJul 29, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k1X8fE2R,comment-id=00110000,timestamp=2015-07-28T16:47:45.136+0000)

theyre all going to be invalidated by vayne with typhoon claws.

if vayne and kallista arent going to get individual balance treatment, theyre just going to break the mode with that item. no discussion. none of the fighter items ive seen for that mode will remotely compare to that.

vayne might even just go devourer with typhoon claws and build the rest tank for shits and giggles.

i actually found the fighter items for that mode rather disappointing. a lot of the ap items, and the adc items look extremely strong from the start. you can get them by 10 minutes and have a power spike. and then there is flesh eater, which has to be farmed up for 20 minutes until its actually as op as the other items.

and not because it has some particularly interesting effect, but only because it becomes op in cost effectiveness. its basically a cheap bloodthirster with less lifesteal.

Typhoon claws and devourer have same name passive they don't stack.

Deadman's plate is incredible as a fighter item and wished it was in the actual game modes

TotN TitanJul 28, 20151 votes

If I was a betting man, I would say that the AP itemization changes were just an introduction before they did an AD itemization change in the pre-season or Season 6. They will do the same thing they did with the needlessly large rod to the BF sword. Big item costs will have smaller breakdowns and Riot will re-evaluate items like Essence Reaver to see where they can better fit into the game and become viable as an item choice. The writing is on the wall, Riot just hasn't released any information on it yet as I am sure they are trying not to create any balancing issues going into Worlds. All of their focus is on that right now, but AD itemization is at the top of their list going into next year.

FluppetsJul 28, 20151 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/6inoy4d3-fighter-rework-remove-critical-strike-chance-on-ranged-champions

You shouldve made a bet.

TotN TitanJul 29, 20151 votes

Damn. That Meddler is always stealing my glory! Glad to hear that they are addressing the situation, though.

HatJul 28, 20151 votes

Fighters can choose from all AD weapons AND tank items. The hard thing is to think of when you are getting wich. If they would just keep adding really strong items with defensive AND offensive stats that would become too easy.

ParessJul 28, 20151 votes

They did created an item which got removed on PBE (Spellbreaker)

It was pretty nice tho

GłacıesJul 29, 20151 votes

The scaling for AP and AD are different though, keep that in mind, but I do agree that is an area that needs looking at. It's tricky though, and will require some work, maybe that will be for preseason 6?

It this sort of thing is messed up/ rushed, it's potentially game breaking. ADC's might end up abusing any changes, so that is a factor to keep in mind, but lots of things have to be taken into consideration. Since everyone in the game has auto attacks scaling off of AD, and auto attacks scale off of as and crit chance... well. Yeah. I think there has to be tweaks done to tank items and damage items, and some new additions wouldn't be bad either.

Kuroi86Jul 29, 20151 votes

Riot is probably in no hurry to rush a fighter meta back into league, they worked so hard to break it's grip that they do NOT want to have to fight against that tidal wave again.