Trinity force fighters stand head and shoulders above the rest

Moody P··12 votes·5,662 views

This item is stupid and is enabling what should be a tanky DPS role to be tanky assassins.. who also have DPS. Back in the old days when divers would just build Triforce as their standalone damage item, MAYBE with a Ravenous Hydra or BORK, and then went full tank, this item made sense. It was a strong powerspike for champions who weren't going to keep buying damage powerspikes. But now, divers are building shit like item 3078 item 3026 item 3053 item 3047 item 3748 item 3065 , still being tanky as hell but doing a fuck-load more damage than they used to and scaling a lot harder into mid/late game.

Fighters who can't buy Trinity Force or aren't as good with it simply can't compete. Even the champions who Black Cleaver was specifically reworked around in season 5 are buying Trinity Force instead right now. Can we do something about this?

35 Comments

TheCodeisCupCake7 votes

I mean, it's not like it's the most expensive item in the game.

Moody P13 votes

Being expensive doesn't excuse being overtuned.

TheCodeisCupCake3 votes

Uh, yes it does.

If you had an item that gives you double what trinity gives but costs 8k gold, that would be fine.

For example, Trinity's upgrade (through Ornn) gives more stats for 1k more gold. Proving that more stats = more gold. If trinity costed 3k gold it would be op because it would give too much for its low cost.

Edit: Nvm, I re-read this and its retarded

Moody P4 votes

No, it doesn't. IE being expensive never made it unacceptable when Riot nerfed it. Same for every other high-price item that turned up being too strong. Bork, the Hydras, Zhonya's, Deathcap.

Trinity Force is too strong and should be addressed. Almost every diver or juggernaut that's sitting in the top of the tier list is a Triforce user, with the only exception I can think of immediately being Kled.

TheCodeisCupCake6 votes

Yeah, because the Black Cleaver is absolute shit right now, the phage passive is too valuable. So wtf do you want me to build? You want me to keep phage without upgrading it. Trinity provides everything a Juggernaut or diver needs.

  • Mana to sustain in a fight (due to weak base mana pools),

  • Hp because hp makes you tanky (duh)

  • CDR due to their abilities being very effectives example, Darius Q is the sole reason he can survive in fights longer than he should (the heal portion) so more Q = more passive stacks + hp.

  • The move speed helps stick to targets, and the attack speed really isn't the biggest thing in the world.

So what I think you hate is The spell blade,its probably what your complaint about but its what makes trinity force, trinity force. Moreover, how do you nerf the spell blade? On Darius (in my case) I will only proc it effectively on my W, probably getting 2-3 spell blade procs in a fight. On the other hand, Irelia abuses the spell blade and its what makes Irelia so strong, without it her win rate would with no exaggeration fucking plummet. So how would you nerf it?

If you remove or nerf the spell blade your gonna need compensation buffs for trinity.

º Lamb calls º1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, because the Black Cleaver is absolute shit right now, the phage passive is too valuable. So wtf do you want me to build? You want me to keep phage without upgrading it. Trinity provides everything a Juggernaut or diver needs.

  • Mana to sustain in a fight (due to weak base mana pools),

  • Hp because hp makes you tanky (duh)

  • CDR due to their abilities being very effectives example, Darius Q is the sole reason he can survive in fights longer than he should (the heal portion) so more Q = more passive stacks + hp.

  • The move speed helps stick to targets, and the attack speed really isn't the biggest thing in the world.

So what I think you hate is The spell blade,its probably what your complaint about but its what makes trinity force, trinity force. Moreover, how do you nerf the spell blade? On Darius (in my case) I will only proc it effectively on my W, probably getting 2-3 spell blade procs in a fight. On the other hand, Irelia abuses the spell blade and its what makes Irelia so strong, without it her win rate would with no exaggeration fucking plummet. So how would you nerf it?

If you remove or nerf the spell blade your gonna need compensation buffs for trinity.

We are at a point where even Garen is abusing Trinity, and realistically he doesn't get to use it much since he Qs and goes right into E. 1 proc unless he gets a second one from a delayed W after E is done.

Thefrostyviking2 votes

Garen can abuse trinity because if his opponent tries to go armor he can just get conqueror and ignore 20% of it and thus still deal good damage to them and delete squishies.

Trinity didnt change, the rest of the game did.

Moody P1 votes

conqueror is awful on garen, the reason he buys triforce is because nobody's buying armor to begin with

BestPudgeNA1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jphYuGuH,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-31T21:25:53.150+0000)

conqueror is awful on garen, the reason he buys triforce is because nobody's buying armor to begin with

Garen builds Cleaver https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Garen/Top/

d9u7c1anh1 votes

{quoted}

Garen builds Cleaver https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Garen/Top/

Garen builds TF if he want to carry, BC if he want to deal with tank or become a spin bot.

DuskDaUmbreon2 votes

Trinity still gives too much for its cost, however.

Yes, it's the most expensive item in League. However, it still gives too much. Ezreal is the least-strong of its abusers right now. When other champions are abusing one of Ezreal's core items better than Ezreal is, that's a problem.

Honestly, though, the issue is less Trinity and more Sheen alone giving way too much power with the people who abuse it. Trinity is overtuned, but Sheen alone makes it nearly impossible to fight some champions.

TheCodeisCupCake8 votes

This issue is, these champions rely on this item to do well. Im gonna pull up some stats here and this is once again, based on my experience of playing as it, against it, or witnessing it or even reading about it:

  • Darius now builds trinity most of the time, Cleaver being rare (as a Darius main cleaver is trash RN), he is at a 49.4% winrate in **gold **(toplane) and this is his highest win rate, every other elo is lower, Diamond for example is 47.2%.

  • Irelia, an infamous trinity abuser is at 50.7% in Diamond, this is her highest win rate, its lower in other every elo.

  • Gangplank, someone who rushes trinity force first is at a 49% win rate in Gold, this is his highest win rate, lower in every other elo.

  • Nasus, is at a 51.4% win rate in BRONZE, lower in every other elo. I don't need to say it but Nasus also almost always rushes Trinity force.

These are all examples of champions who always go trinity, Darius may go cleaver vs 3 or more armor stackers but when was the last time you say 3 armor stackers. Likewise, Nasus may go item 3025 but rarely and his win rate drops 10% with that compared to trinity.

Now, all of these champions are barely sitting on a 50% win rate, 3 of them are lower and only Irelia in Diamond elo reaches higher. Im ignoring Nasus as 51% is in Bronze and silver + drops his win rate by 1% each time. Imagine taking away trinity from them, what happens?

  • In a short understandable way, they are all fucked.
DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

You can compensate them with buffs for nerfing Trinity. You can buff IBG and BC if needed to compensate.

Just pull power out of that god fucking damned triangle and blue knife. Put it somewhere else. Make it scale later, make it synergize with other items. Riot just needs to do something to make it so Trinity abusers don't start winning most trades as soon as they get Sheen, and winning all 1v1s with just Trinity.

TheCodeisCupCake1 votes

On that, we can agree.

Thefrostyviking3 votes

Isnt the main trinity users for lanes irelia and jax though? Irelia would need a shitton of buffs to work without it and jax has proven that he is actually strong even without in both his rageblade and botrk rush episodes.

Both scale a bit slower but are equally or more terrifying later.

GP only uses it because he cant really use anything else, same for nasus mostly i think......armor rush sucks balls vs conqueror.

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

Are Nasus players actually rushing Trinity Force even when they aren't getting fed?

I'd always sit on Sheen and build defensive items to survive the lane.

Of course, that was when I was able to use Armor Penetration runes to compensate for the difference in damage.

Jefftiffy1 votes

{quoted}

Trinity still gives too much for its cost, however.

Yes, it's the most expensive item in League. However, it still gives too much. Ezreal is the least-strong of its abusers right now. When other champions are abusing one of Ezreal's core items better than Ezreal is, that's a problem.

Honestly, though, the issue is less Trinity and more Sheen alone giving way too much power with the people who abuse it. Trinity is overtuned, but Sheen alone makes it nearly impossible to fight some champions.

Who says that it is Ezreal's core item? No one. It was a core item on Irelia Gangplank Jax XinZhao MonkeyKing Urgot Trundle Udyr Poppy Nasus Hecarim Fiora Skarner Vi Yorick Corki KogMaw Lucian for a decent amount of time at some point. It's always been a decent item able to be used by a lot of champions, but lately even manaless champs like Garen Riven Kled Rengar can take it and not feel bad. I think the item may just be too good without the mana even. How to make the mana more useful in the item and not ruin it for everyone else IDK.

Automated Riven1 votes

Umm. Riven/kled cannot take Trinity. It is horseshit on them. Takes way too long to get for garbage returns.

Daddy Ants1 votes

{quoted}

Uh, yes it does.

If you had an item that gives you double what trinity gives but costs 8k gold, that would be fine.

For example, Trinity's upgrade (through Ornn) gives more stats for 1k more gold. Proving that more stats = more gold. If trinity costed 3k gold it would be op because it would give too much for its low cost.

Edit: Nvm, I re-read this and its retarded

It honestly doesn't excuse an item being overtuned.

Colton1472 votes

Corki is forced to build item 3078 to deal any damage.

item 3078 item 3095 item 3020 item 3087 item 3135 item 3072

Corki will need compensation buffs if item 3078 was nerfed.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

To be fair that build is actually disgusting to play against, super high frontload burst that just screws anyone that isnt a tank.

Stormrazor was a mistake, and letting it stack with other such items was even a greater mistake.

BobaFlautist1 votes

So you're telling me that fighters with low-cooldown auto-resets and a substantial amount of aa damage do better than the ones without? Who's even not buying Trinity other than juggernauts and like maybe manaless champs? It's good on everyone, which is I guess it's own problem but not really the same as crowding out picks.

ankoanko191 votes

Maybe dial back the 200% scaling to 150% or 170%. Honestly, as someone who plays Irelia is kind of fucked up how the spellblade deals 188 dmg on its own level 10

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Who the heck has triforce so early unless fed as hell though? Takes me like 15 to farm that much, maybe more.

Less if i get fed but thats its own thing i think......however i also struggle to farm and trade at the same time so there is that.

ankoanko191 votes

That is what I tried to formulate.. That from level 10+ spellblades deals an insane amount of dmg on most champs.

Daddy Ants1 votes

{quoted}

Maybe dial back the 200% scaling to 150% or 170%. Honestly, as someone who plays Irelia is kind of fucked up how the spellblade deals 188 dmg on its own level 10

Dial it back to 175% or 180%

Hemulen Magi1 votes

My conclusion is that tank items should be buffed so that bruisers would be more inclined to pick up more tank items and slightly fewer damage items, while they would also have a harder time demolishing tankier tanks, and squishies would have stronger protection from their tankier frontline. I don't think that high damage fighter build in the original post is overpowered compared to marksmen/assassin itemization per se - it's just that tankier alternative builds could use buffs in my opinion. Also tank items being buffed will increase the value of Black Cleaver's armor shredding.

Edit: I was a bit rude (sorry) so I reworded my post.

Sire Hippington1 votes

I find Titanic hydra to be a bigger issue though, the active is way to much burst. People loose their minds over duskblades 200 damage proc when trinity easily reaches 250-300 and is proced much more frequently, or when titanic thx to the AA-reset gives 100%ad + 40 + 10%hp + on-hits, which on an average bruiser in the late easily reaches 700damage... even earlier in the game, lets say jax takes it as second buy after trinity and completes it at lvl 12, he'd gain 206damage from trinity and 168+40+210+53(1/3 of ult proc) = ~471 from titanic for a total off ~677 damage from non kit damage. And this is calculated from only base+items as stats, no runes involved. But duskblade is busted with it's now 107 damage at lvl 12...

I honstly don#t think trinity is that much to strong given the overall powercreep of the game. It's just outclasseing cleaver atm, and those are the only two hard CDR options bruisers have, and the main reason for it outclassing cleaver is that 150more hp are fully irelevant these days and the %shred is basically usless when you just can take conqueror for truedamage or face a full squishy comp every other game.

However, despite trinity beeing maybe overpowered and titanic beeing actually busted, bruisers are still far from dominateing the game as the overall gamestate just sucks for 'tanky-dps', no matter how tanky you go, you die basically within the first cc-chain in any lategame teamfight. THe only chance for melees is to burst their target befor that happens, which is why bruisers either get absurd burst or are splitpush only. I'd prefer a gamestate where tanky dps can just be that, tanky-dps, rather than somewhat less squishy assasins with no exit, but as things are right now, bruisers rely on trinity and stuff like hydra and steraks to be any relevant.




Tinity tells alot about the powercreep in this game: Old trinity gave:

-30ad -30ap -30%as -15%crit -250hp -250mana -12%ms -a chance to slow 35% for 2sec on-hit(i think it was 30% chance)

  • spellblade for 150%base ad with 2sec cd

for 3900g

Later the slow chance was replaced by the rage speedboost and the spellblade damage has been increased to 200% base ad and got the cost reduced to 3703

Now it costs 3733 in an anviroment with faster gold gain(http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/V5.22) and gives

-25ad -40%as -20%cdr -250hp -250mana -5%ms

  • 20ms for 2 sec on-hit, 60ms on last-hit
  • spellblade with 200% base ad on 1.5sec cd

Now while the rae value off all stats together isn't really higher, old trinity was all over the place with hardly any champ really useing all the stats, and more power was focused on utillity(more ms, the slow proc in the past) while new trinity fits perfect for most of it's users with a high self synergie between the proc and the cdr. And despite old trinity arguablly beeing much weaker in the past for nearly all users compared to now, especially way back with the 150% proc, old trinity still was a strong item duering it's time...

Glory971 votes

Well indeed, an item that has a big powerspike just by itself is very strong in a meta where people can only buy 1-2 items before the game is decided. (I'd prefer if riot turned away from the 100% snowball meta and not start balancing the items arround it)

D4M2X01 votes

hydra steraks cleaver should be for juggernauts and trinity+botrk should be for bruisers and bring back ZEPHYR. right now bruisers are building juggernaut items and juggernauts are building trinity... its overloaded itemization as a whole although trinity/cleaver are fine as they are, everything else needs looking at.

French Courtesan1 votes

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/top/diamond/by-winrate

top 10 has 1 triforce user top 20 has 3, out of all 43 picks 8 use triforce. They stand where? They are what? Too strong? Interesting to be honest, because for item that costs 3700 gold I really expected some over performance on picks like jax and irelia.

Moody P1 votes

Ignoring pick rates, conveniently, which puts triforce users in 8 out of the top 10 in popularity. Almost all of the high winrate champs listed here have pick rates almost 8x lower than what Irelia and Jax are sitting at. Oh, and they're also half of the top 10 ban rates for this lane.

You're right, nothing suspicious at all.

French Courtesan1 votes

Oh champs that are fun are also popular? Who would have guessed.

BestPudgeNA1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jphYuGuH,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-08-31T17:22:54.801+0000)

This item is stupid and is enabling what should be a tanky DPS role to be tanky assassins.. who also have DPS. Back in the old days when divers would just build Triforce as their standalone damage item, MAYBE with a Ravenous Hydra or BORK, and then went full tank, this item made sense. It was a strong powerspike for champions who weren't going to keep buying damage powerspikes. But now, divers are building shit like item 3078 item 3026 item 3053 item 3047 item 3748 item 3065 , still being tanky as hell but doing a fuck-load more damage than they used to and scaling a lot harder into mid/late game.

Fighters who can't buy Trinity Force or aren't as good with it simply can't compete. Even the champions who Black Cleaver was specifically reworked around in season 5 are buying Trinity Force instead right now. Can we do something about this?

The only Cleaver user i can think of that swapped to Triforce is Darius and he did so because with conq he no longer needs Cleaver's armor shred.

Automated Riven1 votes

Garen. (At least in low elo)

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