Why is Aatrox's early game gated so heavily when his mid and late are still lackluster?

Kingsgrave·May 12, 2015·99 votes·5,343 views

There is never a reason to take him over early, mid or late game. These 3 all have aspects of Aatrox's kit and all do everything that he does better.

Why is Aatrox a Risk or Reward Champion with no Reward? Why is Aatrox a Feast or Famine character who only Famines?

low base stats low base damage low base stat growths low base damage growths

forced to hurt himself and get really low to be killed just to have decent AS and Damage that isn't any higher than any other Fighter with damage and AS that isn't conditional.

Is this all because he has a get out of jail free card? Drop the revive passive if its that strangling balance wise and give him a real kit. Pls.

Whats the point of picking him over anyone else?

99 Comments

The Y2J ProblemMay 13, 201517 votes

You know what seriously bugs me about seeing Aatrox posts?

Nothing ever amounts from them.

Seriously, there are so many times that I see an Aa thread and get excited, thinking that maybe just this once that he'll get some attention, in literally any way.

But no.

We got the 20% bloodwell increase thing, which is nice, but it really doesn't fix much. If Riot wanted to target his Passive for positive changes, a change that would've benefited him greater would have been to keep the amount of blood in the Bloodwell after resurrection, so that once he returns from death, he isn't essentially a lemon with no attack speed.

Maybe one day Aa will change for the better, but since his kit is "Feast or Famine", he'll probably stay in the exact same state for a very long time.

And that state is fairly weak.

AbodyHUN666May 13, 20152 votes

I think it's mainly because he was kind of underwhelming on realease. As I he was released in a batch of many similar fighter champions, so he didn't really bring anything new to the game (zac already had his passive too) and Riot didn't get us hyped for him. Also many of his kit elements were used on other champions already, so maybe this is why people dropped him after he got nerfed.

The Y2J ProblemMay 13, 20153 votes

That's true, I remember a bunch of people thought his kit was boring, and really, it sort of is. It's a strange mismatched set consisting of abilities that are very similar to others, such as the revive passive of Anivia/Zac, the knockup of someone like Malphite (although understandably less powerful), the three strike heal of Xin, the three strike extra damage of Jax, and other comparisons.

I'm the sort of person that likes theme more so than kit, most of the time. For instance, I think Rumble has a hilarious kit, one that I would probably really like, but the idea of a raccoon in a shite mech suit isn't exciting to me, making me not want to play him. With Aatrox I feel the opposite, his theme is amazing (Seriously, a Satan-looking bastard with a God of War background? Yes please), but his kit is lackluster.

AbodyHUN666May 15, 20151 votes

Yeah, I'd love AAtrox to have a more war oriented kit, but that kind of rework would take a lot more time than Riot currently has.

JamareeMay 12, 20159 votes

Likely because when it wasn't gated, he didn't die, then came back, and didn't die again. His revival passive on top of the massive amounts of health he can get back is keeping him down and stopping him from getting any real buffs.

KingsgraveMay 12, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Likely because when it wasn't gated, he didn't die, then came back, and didn't die again. His revival passive on top of the massive amounts of health he can get back is keeping him down and stopping him from getting any real buffs.

Its always been gated, the only nerfs he ever got were late game E damage and early passive AS

The5lackerMay 12, 201533 votes

And before those nerfs he was steamrolling people.

Aatrox's kit has too many inherent issues to be allowed to be powerful. He passively outsustains almost every champion in the game when below 50% health (60 (+75% bonus AD) every 3 attacks is an average of 20 (+25% bonus AD) per attack. At level 1. Holy shit.) so he's hard to punish. He's got a resurrection passive that guts his damage potential when he uses it. He's got costs based on maximum health so he's punished for building beef, but he also needs those costs to grant him AS so he's rewarded for building beef. He's got staggeringly poor scaling on his abilities, but he's supposed to be a melee carry.

I get the feeling Aatrox's design was changed a half dozen times in development, and what we've ended up with is a nonsensical mess of a champion with a kit that's constantly fighting itself and numerous archaic design choices that fit neither his theme nor his role. He needs his kit fixed before he can be allowed to be relevant, as right now he's either got the tankiness of a bruiser with the damage of a carry, or neither.

KingsgraveMay 12, 20152 votes

{quoted}

And before those nerfs he was steamrolling people.

Aatrox's kit has too many inherent issues to be allowed to be powerful. He passively outsustains almost every champion in the game when below 50% health (60 (+75% bonus AD) every 3 attacks is an average of 20 (+25% bonus AD) per attack. At level 1. Holy shit.) so he's hard to punish. He's got a resurrection passive that guts his damage potential when he uses it. He's got costs based on maximum health so he's punished for building beef, but he also needs those costs to grant him AS so he's rewarded for building beef. He's got staggeringly poor scaling on his abilities, but he's supposed to be a melee carry.

I get the feeling Aatrox's design was changed a half dozen times in development, and what we've ended up with is a nonsensical mess of a champion with a kit that's constantly fighting itself and numerous archaic design choices that fit neither his theme nor his role. He needs his kit fixed before he can be allowed to be relevant, as right now he's either got the tankiness of a bruiser with the damage of a carry, or neither.

He was also changed on the PBE like 6 times before being released.

WolfBVMay 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

And before those nerfs he was steamrolling people.

Aatrox's kit has too many inherent issues to be allowed to be powerful. He passively outsustains almost every champion in the game when below 50% health (60 (+75% bonus AD) every 3 attacks is an average of 20 (+25% bonus AD) per attack. At level 1. Holy shit.) so he's hard to punish. He's got a resurrection passive that guts his damage potential when he uses it. He's got costs based on maximum health so he's punished for building beef, but he also needs those costs to grant him AS so he's rewarded for building beef. He's got staggeringly poor scaling on his abilities, but he's supposed to be a melee carry.

I get the feeling Aatrox's design was changed a half dozen times in development, and what we've ended up with is a nonsensical mess of a champion with a kit that's constantly fighting itself and numerous archaic design choices that fit neither his theme nor his role. He needs his kit fixed before he can be allowed to be relevant, as right now he's either got the tankiness of a bruiser with the damage of a carry, or neither.

So, he needs a rework? Maybe half a rework like Ashe got or something?

DrakylonMay 12, 20158 votes

I think the low ratios are because he's meant to be an autoattacking carry, since the ratio on his Blood Price is actually not bad. However, the rest of his kit is pretty nonsensical: punished for building HP, but also needs HP to fill his passive and mitigate the cost of his Blood Price (which is flat); damage relies on AD, but Blood Price's cost scales with AD; has a revive passive but is useless after reviving; etc. At least his ult provides a way to fill his passive without paying % HP cost.

ArkenStormMay 12, 20151 votes

that is true, but his ult scaling off of AP is worthless, and his ult is lackluster anyway

LittleBlastMay 13, 20152 votes

I got my first penta on ap aatrox. Dont dis the ult.

ArkenStormMay 13, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I got my first penta on ap aatrox. Dont dis the ult.

yessir.

But building ap only works on the ult and nothing else. its like old sion, except the opposite of broken

RavenMagusMay 13, 20151 votes

His E has an AP ratio too. It's crappy but at least you can poke with it or something?

kJsMay 13, 20151 votes

Aatrox actually fairs much better with AP than AD in ARAM. The ult scales really well with AP and the E has decent enough damage to be a viable harass tool. This is because melee champions already have a hard time AAing minions in ARAM, those that can are either really tanky, or have great mobility. Aatrox suffers from that because his escape is his Q which is a sizeable part of his damage output as well as its valuable CC.

ArkenStormMay 13, 20151 votes

It does? well evidently i need to pay more attention to that. I guess. Regardless, he still needs to be stronger.

StillnameMay 13, 20154 votes

He's a melee carry and melee carries are a little risky if they don't get snowballing so he isn't picked in the LCS and people only play champions that are played in the LCS. Other than that he is pretty reasonable pick if you know how to play him.

The Bearded BardMay 13, 20153 votes

I just wish his kit reflected his lore. He should be a badass support that rallies teammates by example, but he has absolutely nothing that buffs up his team.

His E also sucks, and his ult is pretty lame.

AnonagonMay 13, 20153 votes

Get rid of the revive passive and then he can have decent bases. Then give him a decent ult (one that fits his fucking lore). Now change Blood Price so people actually use it instead of Thirst. Like, make the cost be % based and non-scaling so that damage Aatrox doesn't shit himself trying to use it, reduce the damage ratio a bit, then give it some of the attack range Massacre gives since he won't have it anymore.

Ser GarlandMay 12, 20152 votes

Aatrox has pre 6 sustain built into his kit, no mana and a GA passive. None of those examples have that

KingsgraveMay 12, 201515 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ser Garland,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jlrKQxZi,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-05-12T21:34:49.074+0000)

Aatrox has pre 6 sustain built into his kit, no mana and a GA passive. None of those examples have that

No mana doesnt mean anything when he has to hit something 3 times to get a little bit of health back and all his abilities cost a lot of health

Xin gets just as much sustain as Aatrox does Same with Irelia

RavenMagusMay 13, 20152 votes

Aatrox's sustain is quite a lot higher than those two.

Xin Zhao's starting heal on his W is pretty high, but Xin never levels his W first. In fact, it's almost always leveled last.

Irelia's heal is about the same base value as Aatrox's - well, starts off quite a bit worse but scales up a little more, so they're about equal in base at level 5 ... except that Aatrox's comes with an AD ratio, and Irelia's doesn't have a ratio at all.

This is, of course, ignoring the double proc on Aatrox's heal that makes sure it's incredibly easy to sustain back above half health.

When Aatrox gets ahead, his sustain actually makes him insanely frustrating to play against. I won't claim that getting ahead is the easiest thing in the world for him, and I won't say the guy doesn't have problems - but you've gotta be careful about buffing someone like that.

The Bearded BardMay 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

No mana doesnt mean anything when he has to hit something 3 times to get a little bit of health back and all his abilities cost a lot of health

Xin gets just as much sustain as Aatrox does Same with Irelia

No, neither of them do. Irelia gets 5-26 every attack, so at the most she gets 78 every three attacks, but that's when she has the ability activated at level 5. Xin Zhao gets 30-50 every third auto with an ap ratio he'll never use while being traditionally built. Aatrox gets 20-40 with a 25% bonus AD ratio that triples when he's below 50% health so that becomes 60-120 with a 75% bonus ad ratio.

MLDzXnRRRMay 13, 20152 votes

He can beat any champion as long he can right click and is not cced. Also can get bursted by champions like Riven, Diana etc, because he is squishy. Aatrox needs buffs to his tankiness, if they want to be bruiser. If he is supposed to be melee adc like Trynda, he needs some kind of cc reduction in his kit.

Schoolgirl UrgotMay 13, 20151 votes

The only way I can get him to work is to play him as a melee carry kinda style (kinda like trynd) with this build

item 3284 item 3074 item 3035 item 3142 item 3031 item 3087

If you play it smart and flank around teamfights after CC is blown, you really can just rampage, 2 shotting squishies with around 2.0 attack speed but also retaining some degree of tankiness that high damage auto's + AoE lifesteal gives you. It's also good for picks because you can Q onto to someone and just quite literally one shot them. Great early game with q->blood price, almost guaranteed first blood no matter what the matchup.

Probably wouldn't work well vs the upper echelon of LoL players, but against the great majority, it's worked for me. When I used to play this build, getting penta's was not uncommon, and I am by no means a good player.

TheWoollyMammothMay 13, 20151 votes

You mind giving a build order for this? And idk, hes been working pretty well for me as an offtank after them botrk buffs

Schoolgirl UrgotMay 13, 20152 votes

{quoted}

You mind giving a build order for this? And idk, hes been working pretty well for me as an offtank after them botrk buffs

I like to go brutalizer -> hydra -> LW -> ghostblade -> IE -> shiv

boots whenever you feel they're necessary

kJsMay 13, 20151 votes

Funny thing is, Tryndamere truthfully does everything better than Aatrox even if he lacks a knock-up. Tryndamere also craps on Aatrox past lvl 2 or 3.

The Bíg TicketMay 13, 20151 votes

Aatrox actually outscales all 3 of them. If you build him right he beats all of them.

ThePlasticSporkMay 13, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Danielas Kitten,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jlrKQxZi,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2015-05-13T02:20:49.667+0000)

Aatrox actually outscales all 3 of them. If you build him right he beats all of them.

Not really sure how. Like, sure, maybe he can 1 v 1 them lategame based on the build, but League isn't a 1 v 1 game, even moreso when its lategame. Every single one of those 3 champions is more relevant in a 5 v 5 scenario, which is what matters lategame.

The Bíg TicketMay 13, 20151 votes

Yeah which is why Aatrox sucks in general but in a splitpush scenario he beats all of them. His 5v5 sucks ass yeah which means you should splitpush with him, thats the only thing he is good at. Still, if the enemy has a Tryndamere or Jax you are fucked. Lategame (outside of Bronze/Silver elo) is actually not only decided in pure 5v5 deathmatches.

kJsMay 13, 20151 votes

Yeah, despite the lore connection to Tryndamere, Aatrox gets hard countered by Tryn. The only thing that Tryndamere doesn't have or can't do better against Aatrox is knock people up. Everything else Tryn shits on Aatrox. There is a video comparing their major mechanical similarities in youtube. Tryndamere eventually heals far better because of crit being a main part of his build. Whilst Aatrox's effeciency with crit is not very high. Tryndamere can output damage whilst invulnerable whilst Aatrox can be camped whilst reviving. Tryndamere's shout reduces AD which means he shits on Aatrox he verses against. blah blah blah

TransgressorMay 13, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Danielas Kitten,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jlrKQxZi,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2015-05-13T02:20:49.667+0000)

Aatrox actually outscales all 3 of them. If you build him right he beats all of them.

Impossible, they have way too much utility in their kits to let you keep autoattacking them. And while Aatrox may have his empowered W to do extra damage, they have armor shredding and built in tenacity, not to mention mobility and generaly more overloaded kits.

Don't forget they can build item 3078 too.

The Bíg TicketMay 13, 20151 votes

Lol. Irelia will always build Triforce, Xin Zhao usually too. Its not good on Jarvan so I don' know why he would build it but even then he loses 1v1 to Aatrox. Seriously, your comment shows you have never actually seen these matchups. Try it out in a custom maybe and then come back cause what you are doing atm is just spreading nonsense because you don't have a clue about these matchups.

TransgressorMay 13, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Danielas Kitten,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jlrKQxZi,comment-id=000b00010000,timestamp=2015-05-13T13:56:42.504+0000)

Lol. Irelia will always build Triforce, Xin Zhao usually too. Its not good on Jarvan so I don' know why he would build it but even then he loses 1v1 to Aatrox. Seriously, your comment shows you have never actually seen these matchups. Try it out in a custom maybe and then come back cause what you are doing atm is just spreading nonsense because you don't have a clue about these matchups.

Sigh...

The Bíg TicketMay 13, 20151 votes

So you admit your comment was nonsense?

TransgressorMay 13, 20151 votes

Top kek.

kJsMay 13, 20151 votes

Xin Zhao and Irelia do have a relatively overloaded kit compared to Aatrox who relies heavily on Autoattacks to deal damage. Stuns innately mitigate Aatrox's sustain, being kited around is commonplace with Aatrox. Xin and Irelia have very solid escape/mobility choices that hardly affect their damage output Xin Zhao has far more use in teamfights than Aatrox. Irelia can out tank and out CC when compared to Aatrox with his tank and CC. . . . . . . on and on.

UPfreelyMay 13, 20151 votes

DrMundo Mordekaiser Aatrox Olaf Vladimir notice a trend? if your stuff costs hp, you are doomed to suck

meanwhile Riven Katarina RekSai Gnar Shyvana

TwoDMay 13, 20157 votes

Vladimir suck? wtf?

Champion SkinMay 13, 20151 votes

If he gets even slightly too strong he might get hammered down into the ground because... Vlad is supposedly "toxic" well riot said he was before at least

MeesterMooMay 13, 20151 votes

Nice try buddy.

UPfreelyMay 13, 20152 votes

vlad was a joke i thought u guys would notice lol geuss not.

RakemenMay 13, 20151 votes

Free Gap closer ( like Khazix ), GA, high sustain, DPS. Ofc he's going to have low stats, the best and closest example is XinZhao who has no escape and no GA.

TransgressorMay 13, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Free Gap closer ( like ), GA, high sustain, DPS. Ofc he's going to have low stats, the best and closest example is who has no escape and no GA.

XinZhao => knocup, armor shredding, free healing, reduced cooldowns, extra attack speed, gapcloser with embedded slow, "get the fuck away from me while i get free armor and magic resist for every enemy I cockblocked when I pressed R" ultimate, can build and benefits greatly from item 3078 and is impossible to escape from.

Khazix => massive single target damage on a ridiculusly low cooldown, damaging skillshot that can slow and also heal him from point blank range not to mention upgraded to tripple the effectiveness, a low range gapcloser with average damage that can be upgraded to one of the biggest fucking gapclosers in the game which resets on assist or kill, an ultimate that lets you upgrade his abilities and cast a 1 second invisibility state twice(or thrice) which makes you take reduced damage to boot AND triggers his passive.

Aatrox's Q is on a 16 freaking second cdr at lvl1, costs tons of health, is interuptable and its range is misserably low(kinda like non-upgraded Khazix E range) and it doesn't reset nor gets extra range via an upgrade. Aatrox doesn't shred your armor, his attack speed gets fucked once his passive gets proced which leaves you pretty vulnerable untill you fill it back up which only grants you the extra attack speed untill the GA like effect is back on. He also NEEDS items to do anything usefull, he NEEDS items to suplement his inherent issues.

Your argument is invalid.

RakemenMay 13, 20151 votes

XinZhao shit sustained damage outside of his steroids, Aatrox's sustained damage is far better without using steroids. Aatrox still has a knockup on his Q. Xin's R is rewarded for going onto like 5 people, Aatrox has it on his passive; no need for risk whatsoeveer.

Khazix This guy is an assassin, idk how you compare them in the first place. The idea is, he had to pay for his free mobility ( doesn't need a target ) and is considered suboptimal currently; and so should aatrox granted he has a similar mobility spell and a GA.

Meep ManMay 13, 20151 votes

Have you ever played against a fed, GOOD Aatrox? Once he gets fed, he gets hard to kill. Then when you do kill him, he comes back. Then he is hard to kill again. But guess what? He has a Guardian's Angel. Now thats 3 lives of a drain tank you have to kill. Good luck.

kJsMay 14, 20151 votes

Then you remember he has support Zilean...

McRuthlessMay 14, 20151 votes

IMO the biggest problem with him is the ridiculously long cd on his gap closer (like double any of the other champs you mentioned lategame). His damage is fine and his sustain is great if you can stay on people, but he gets kited far too easily to do anything most of the time.

TwoDMay 14, 20151 votes

aatrox needs buffs