Can we talk about how oppressive Tahm Kench is

FalconPawwwwnch·Oct 23, 2015·47 votes·3,162 views

In what way are you supposed to combat him

He's pretty much just a stat stick that you can't get in melee range of

There's no meaningful gameplay at all, he just outstats you

63 Comments

yukumariOct 23, 201524 votes

True. It's ridiculous that he can start applying stacks as soon as they fall off after he eats you. Plus, if he stuns you with his tongue when you have 3 stacks, it keeps the 3 stacks there. Nothing is consumed for that like wtf?

RetillinOct 23, 20152 votes

This^

(and 32% of max health is stupid)

TahmKench ExpertOct 25, 20151 votes

People really like pointing to that even after they're told that 85% of Tahm's damage is funneled into that spell.

RetillinOct 25, 20151 votes

I have no problem with the damage being that high. If he had to build AP to get to it. The flat high damage is the problem. Like launch Ekko, Tahm can do a lot of dmg without building for it. Raise the AP ratio and lower the flat dmg.

FrozenShogunOct 25, 20151 votes

The difference here is that Ekko was meant to be built as a mage, that's why he needed to be brought down on base and raise his scaling... Tahm is meant to be built tank/support...one of the main aspects of supports are high base, low scaling. Your fix is asking him to be more mage... The damage is fine since he is supposed to be a punishing tank (it still gets negated by magic damage so he doesn't actually do 32% of ur health, he does quite a bit less if you have MR)

RetillinOct 25, 20151 votes

But... that's my point. A tank shouldn't have such high damage, and a mage shouldn't have such high defenses. Shift damage off of Devour to his Q if you need. But allowing a champion to just build tank and do insane amounts of damage (1k to a 3000HP tank) with a cc attached is really Taric levels of outrageous.

Silents429Oct 23, 20154 votes

I don't think he is worthy of the word "Oppressive" even though it's thrown around the internet like free candy, but a few minor nerfs like having his Stun consume the stacks, and if he eats a target they get a small immunity before he can rebuild stacks like Nauts passive.

Minor nerfs to make him more fair to play against.

Hayaishi2Oct 23, 201519 votes

No sorry, too busy getting hit by 32% max HP magic damage.

Anu3isIIOct 23, 20151 votes

Are you playing buddy ? I thought he used the "make your opponent AFK" ability already...

Remlap1223Oct 23, 20152 votes

He was playing, but he got hit by a Morgana snare beforehand.

NebuulOct 23, 201513 votes

I've been maining Kench since he was released. As such, here is how the folks who beat me in lane do it:

Build. Magic. Resistance.

If you are dps (riven, wu, etc), rush hexdrinker. If you are a tank, spirit visage/banshees. Get mercury treads.

Playing vs Tahm is a lot like playing vs zed for mid laners: if you want to win, just accept that you need to rush a relevant defensive item (zhonyas vs zed). Once you have resists, you will beat Tahm in trades because Kench will not have penetration gear. If he does, he won't be tanky enough.

There are other tricks, too! Fight him in minions to block his skill shots and add minion damage. Bait his shield by cc'ing him at 50% life then fake-diving him. Bait his minion spits by moving back-and-forth away from your target minions when you are last-hitting. Get him to waste mana.

Most of the complaints I get after matches about how powerful my character is are from people who blindly build what they always builds to beat ad-centric tanky opponents. For Tahm, realize that no matter what items he buys, his primary damage will always be magic, and it will almost never have penetration. Then you will start winning trades.

RogueWillOct 23, 20154 votes

That doesn't address the fact that his stacks are not consumed when he gets the extra effect.... I don't understand why they are not and that also means teh have no CD whatsoever. How would feel if a braum could apply another stack of Conclusive blow right after you got stunned?

NebuulOct 23, 20151 votes

Instead, Braum does significantly higher damage to you for a period of time. It's a different ability.

Funny enough, I had a late-game support Braum beat me in a duel as jungle Tahm. Why? He had magic resistance and did not care when I devoured him. Plus Braum brings way more to team fights that Tahm ever will.

RogueWillOct 23, 20151 votes

The thing is you can't hope to get into late game if you are against Tahm with a melee champion on lane since you will be zone so hard out to the point you will become useless. You get no farm, no gold no xp just because the sacks doesn't get consumed when he uses one of his special abilities. Tahm should be forced to chose between either devouring you or stunning you instead of being able to do both. I can't think of any other champion based on stacks that his stacks are not consumed after using an empowered ability besides Tahm.

The FastOct 25, 20151 votes

He clearly addressed that in his first post. Build MR.

Also if that were the case, his stun would have to be MUCH longer.

Kitten of EvilOct 23, 201510 votes

Well, I suppose the issue is more that you're having to build defense against a champion who is often played as a support and always built as a tank. A Zed mid is a damage-dealer and assassin, you would expect to maybe have to build a bit of defense against him. But would you build MR against a Soraka? Or a Braum? Probably not.

KuboxOct 23, 20152 votes

Maybe not MR. But vs Braum it might be smart to get Merc Threads. Soraka, mages will often get Morello. Thresh? Sash can save your life (tho you won't rush it).

Well, Tahm gets countered by MR. And it's not the first time supports are countered by MR. Annie, Sona, Zyra, Velkoz, even Morg if she gets fed. A lot of supports are heavily affected by MR. They're simply kept in check by the abundance of sustain and kill-potential in the current botlane meta.

And let's be honest : the enemy probably has another AP or two. Buying MR is probably a good idea anyway.

Kitten of EvilOct 23, 20152 votes

Tahm gets countered by MR. And it's not the first time supports are countered by MR. Annie, Sona, Zyra, Velkoz, even Morg if she gets fed. A lot of supports are heavily affected by MR.

The difference is that if you're picking Annie, Zyra, or Vel'Koz, you have minimal utility and are going for a kill lane -- you basically build like a mage with a bit of CC and a Sightstone. Sona doesn't deal enough damage or survive long enough to even merit counterbuilding. The only one I'd compare him to is Morg, whose Black Shield is great defensive utility and Q is good damage with CC, but Morg relies heavily on landing those Qs, which have a long Cooldown.

At any rate, every single one of those supports you named is squishy unless they build a ton of health. That's why they're allowed to do damage, because if you close the gap, they melt. Tahm Kench does not follow that trend, and his health IS his damage.

And let's be honest : the enemy probably has another AP or two. Buying MR is probably a good idea anyway.

That's actually not always the case anymore. I see way more 4-AD teams now than I used to -- Yasuo or Zed mid, any number of juggernauts top, and a tank or fighter jungle.

DemaciaClownOct 23, 20153 votes

Hah. Everyone in the boards forgets about karma. :(

Kitten of EvilOct 23, 20151 votes

I love(d) Karma. Before they removed her extra damage from RW and RE. Less flexibility, even more of a Q-firing machine gun.

NebuulOct 23, 20152 votes

Tahm is a special snowflake. You should expect to need resists vs him.

That said, support Tahm is not nearly so dangerous as lane/jg Tahm. He simply won't have the gold or probably runes/masteries to be so. Also, support Tahm generally needs to save his devour for his own adc since it is quite literally the only thing he can do to save him. Late game, though, you should definitely have some mr vs him. The adc should try build qs sash/merc scimitar just like he would if ww, zed, yasuo, or other similar champs were on the enemy team.

BakedLotionOct 23, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I've been maining Kench since he was released. As such, here is how the folks who beat me in lane do it:

Build. Magic. Resistance.

If you are dps (riven, wu, etc), rush hexdrinker. If you are a tank, spirit visage/banshees. Get mercury treads.

Playing vs Tahm is a lot like playing vs zed for mid laners: if you want to win, just accept that you need to rush a relevant defensive item (zhonyas vs zed). Once you have resists, you will beat Tahm in trades because Kench will not have penetration gear. If he does, he won't be tanky enough.

There are other tricks, too! Fight him in minions to block his skill shots and add minion damage. Bait his shield by cc'ing him at 50% life then fake-diving him. Bait his minion spits by moving back-and-forth away from your target minions when you are last-hitting. Get him to waste mana.

Most of the complaints I get after matches about how powerful my character is are from people who blindly build what they always builds to beat ad-centric tanky opponents. For Tahm, realize that no matter what items he buys, his primary damage will always be magic, and it will almost never have penetration. Then you will start winning trades.

So you're saying in order to win against him you need to hope he's bad? Any decent player will not fight in the enemy's minion wave... lol. Same exact problem Yasuo has. You can't efficiently trade with him because he blocks everything. Tahm just sustains everything you throw at him.

NebuulOct 23, 20152 votes

No, I'm saying to beat him you should build magic resistance and stop blindly complaining that he's too strong.

Go back and look at all your match histories where Tahm dominated you, and I'd be willing to bet that you did not build against him. You just sat there and complained at how strong he is instead of analyzing what his strength actually was: magic damage.

BakedLotionOct 23, 20154 votes

{quoted}

No, I'm saying to beat him you should build magic resistance and stop blindly complaining that he's too strong.

Go back and look at all your match histories where Tahm dominated you, and I'd be willing to bet that you did not build against him. You just sat there and complained at how strong he is instead of analyzing what his strength actually was: magic damage.

Because i can win him by building magic resist. If I'm building magic resist, I won't have enough damage to even break his gray health. But if he builds full tank, you cant even notice a difference in his dmg.

NebuulOct 23, 20151 votes

If you are an AP mage, do you always lose to zed? If you are an ADC, do you just roll over and die to Warwick? Hopefully, you build Zhonyas, Mercurial Scimitar, or whatever it is you need to defeat the opponent you are facing.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_resistance

100 magic resistance = 50% reduction

So, if you are vs. a Tahm, and you get 100 MR (which is not hard to do with scaling runes), then his magic damage is literally cut in half. So his 32% max health devour becomes 16% max health devour. His ult bonus of 20+8% Tahm's bonus life becomes 10+4% bonus life.

I mean, it is not some huge sacrifice for ad to build into Maw, or for AP to buy abyssal scepter and/or grail. You are acting like a champion has only one build that will work. The fact is, vs tahm, you need to build a certain way, but that build will defeat Tahm's build or force him to build in such a way that he is crippled in team fights.

Here are some things you can build that will help you overcome Tahm and his magical ability to somehow be victorious over you regardless of what you do:

item 3001 item 3174 item 3060 item 3028 item 3026 item 3156 item 3139 item 3111 item 3065 item 3091 item 3222 item 3102

I could go through the list and explain how each of those items counters Tahm, but I'm sure you can figure it out if you sit back and think about it instead of just complaining that "such-and-such champion has a strength that I need to plan against!"

RetillinOct 25, 20151 votes

The thing is, Zed vs a mage is almost always going to be mid-lane. So building vs Zed means you only have to worry about getting AP and armour. Tahm could very well go bot lane that already has a high amount of AD damage. If Tahm were JUST a top/jungler, you would be right. But the fact that a support can do that much magic damage (20% rank 1 up to 32% rank 5 plus AP scaling) means you can't build vs it in lane as an AD/Support without just automatically falling behind.

He has (shockingly for a new champion) too much in his kit. In too few places. He shouldn't be given this level of offensive power by building straight tank.

THE RlVER KlNGOct 23, 20158 votes

"Pretty much a Stat stick that you can't get rid of"

Mundo has been going where he pleases a lot longer than Tahm. So has Gnar and Sion. Lategame tanks FTW.

In all seriousness though, I am a Tahm Kench main with 100k+ champ points, dozens of games in all roles. Literally. Lich Bane Tahm mid FTW :P!

If you want to fck with Tahm, pick Morg. Morg is the Bane of Tahm Kench's existence. A long range root to keep him off your carry, and if he does by some miracle reach them, you can Black Shield both his stun and his Devour. The common noobs trap is taking some all-in supp like Thresh or Naut or Leona. He'll just eat his carry and run away. If you want that kind of thing, get Blitz, because his hook is generally fast enough that most Tahms can't preemptively Devour. Poke supports like Nami and Lulu work fairly well too. (Don't take Sona though because he can save ADC from Crescendo).

On the shield, reminder that it decays, and also denies him valuable regen. If he shields, pop it as soon as you can and then go back to focusing carry. Also, ward so he can't pop in behind you with a jungler if you pushed. It has a long channel time and is fairly easy to avoid.

Percent max health ruins him because he likes to stack health because of his ulti passive. Vayne, Fiora, and Kog are great, and you can even take the first 2 top if he goes there. If he's jungle, take an aggressive early game jungler like Lee, Vi, or Shaco, because he has a slow, risky first clear.

Hope that helped. See you on the Rift, hope to taste you some time in bot. :P

SnowFallOct 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

"Pretty much a Stat stick that you can't get rid of"

Mundo has been going where he pleases a lot longer than Tahm. So has Gnar and Sion. Lategame tanks FTW.

In all seriousness though, I am a Tahm Kench main with 100k+ champ points, dozens of games in all roles. Literally. Lich Bane Tahm mid FTW :P!

If you want to fck with Tahm, pick Morg. Morg is the Bane of Tahm Kench's existence. A long range root to keep him off your carry, and if he does by some miracle reach them, you can Black Shield both his stun and his Devour. The common noobs trap is taking some all-in supp like Thresh or Naut or Leona. He'll just eat his carry and run away. If you want that kind of thing, get Blitz, because his hook is generally fast enough that most Tahms can't preemptively Devour. Poke supports like Nami and Lulu work fairly well too. (Don't take Sona though because he can save ADC from Crescendo).

On the shield, reminder that it decays, and also denies him valuable regen. If he shields, pop it as soon as you can and then go back to focusing carry. Also, ward so he can't pop in behind you with a jungler if you pushed. It has a long channel time and is fairly easy to avoid.

Percent max health ruins him because he likes to stack health because of his ulti passive. Vayne, Fiora, and Kog are great, and you can even take the first 2 top if he goes there. If he's jungle, take an aggressive early game jungler like Lee, Vi, or Shaco, because he has a slow, risky first clear.

Hope that helped. See you on the Rift, hope to taste you some time in bot. :P

How do you play Tahm mid? Do you play AP? I can't survive if I'm AP and dunno what to build

LeprechaunJinxOct 24, 20151 votes

Grab MR on your first item.

item 3174 is a pretty good start for most AP mages since it fixes mana problems and provides some cooldown reduction, besides that item 3001 is better for defense and damage but it's up to you if you can deal with mana deficiency. Also, grab item 3111 for your boots since the MR is nice and the tenacity can really help you out of some tough spots.

ayNigerianPrinceOct 24, 20152 votes

Please don't promote top lane vayne =( I've already lived through one cancerous game of that.

Earl EulrichOct 23, 20156 votes

In what way are you supposed to combat him

reach lategame and peel for your ADC...which is the way any tank can get useless unfortunatly. Other than that it´s almost impossible to shut him down as a melee, it´s mostly trying to kill his team and then run away from Tahm. He really got massivly overbuffed, his release already had been very surpressing vs other melees - now it´s just ridiculous.

RisenDarkKnightOct 23, 20155 votes

Wait a second how are you supposed to peel better than a tahm? Unless you are playing top lane janna, his w is prob the best peel you can get.

Earl EulrichOct 24, 20151 votes

though his w disables his carry, so yours can demolish his team in the meantime..., also - as we´re talking about his oppresiveness vs melees i assumed it´s mainly top/jungle tahm, which indeed does drop somewhat in the lategame as his teamfight-impact is very single-target focused.

support-tahm however is a whole other problem, getting any idiot out of a situation that would have him die in a cc-chain is just waay too broken atm, especially considering you usually can´t just catch tahm instead if you´re not really far ahead already.

RedCycloneOct 23, 20154 votes

Muh Sona Oppression NEVAR 4GET

Xx420n0sc0p3sxXOct 23, 20151 votes

How that is relevant I have no idea but she was and is oppressive. Is she op? No way, but she is like Quinn. Super oppressive and annoying to lane against, but far from op.

Lazypeon100Oct 23, 20153 votes

I think it's because Riot views her as oppressive, so they keep her relatively weak. RedCyclone brought her up since this topic is about another support champion being oppressive.

At least, that's why I think they brought it up. I could be completely wrong.

RedCycloneOct 23, 20151 votes

Meh, more on what riot perceives as "oppressive" A badly received rework for a champion, people not happy, the amazing decision for Riot was to nerf her even more at that point by using the buzzword "Oppressive"

Meanwhile champs like Tahm exist

PDE5 InhibitorsOct 23, 20154 votes

He is strong, yes. I wouldn't say "oppressive" though.

Mael broOct 23, 20152 votes

Tahm is a bit strong this patch, but i don't think he is currently more oppressive than Veigar Lulu Fiora

Penta PenguinOct 23, 20152 votes

He's a single-target CC champion with a low-power, very situational ultimate

The FastOct 24, 20153 votes

I love Tahm Kench, so I gotta ask, what are you smoking if you think his ultimate is low power, I don't know what to tell you. If they kept his ult JUST the passive, it'd still be ridiculously strong, seeing as he progressively gets toward 250 bonus damage on every ability and auto attack.

Penta PenguinOct 24, 20151 votes

Compared to other top-lane or jungle tanks that will press R and make you - and possibly your whole team - wish they never logged in today.

Earl EulrichOct 24, 20152 votes

because two people flanking you all of a sudden aren´t stronger than anything else that possible could ruin your day? It´s harder to use than a lot of ults, but it also has a lot more impact if it´s used well.

RottedApplesOct 23, 20151 votes

Teemo : I have no problems against this bench of which you speak

CudyDarkyzOct 23, 20151 votes

I agree nerf sona

My Waifu VanillaOct 24, 20151 votes

You said the o-word. #triggered

doiminat0r3600Oct 24, 20151 votes

He has the best displace ment in the game, the most oppressive passive/ult passive, and he has summoner 6 summoner 21 summoner 7 all in his kit and people are still defending him. Why?

The FastOct 25, 20151 votes

No, Tahm does not have summoner spells in his kit. He has A heal, A shield, and A situational movespeed buff. But that metric, Karma should is also OP, and so is Lulu and Sona.

He may be too strong right now, but your argument makes absolutely no sense.

doiminat0r3600Oct 25, 20151 votes

"A heal" is also the same for half the damage taken in a certain time. Stronger than the summoner heal. The shield is also stronger than any other shield in the game. You shouldn't be able to take the same amount of damage you just did to him twice. That's not fair. The MS buff isnt situational. Its if you have an ally, which is most of the time because you can play jungle tahm and gank (someone in lane) or play support tahm (someone always with you).

The FastOct 25, 20151 votes

Yes it is situational, because every time you use said speedup, it has to be in a specific situation. If you eat your own ally in a gank as Tahm, there is a pretty good chance that it was a failed gank anyway. And if you are alone, there is a situation in which you have no speed up at all. So yes, situational speed up.

You can say that the heal is for half the damage taken, but thats only out of combat, while heal can be used in combat. Warmogs does something similar/better. And the shield is pretty ridiculous, but you also don't do 100% of the shields value to tahm, because the shield decays, so how much damage it actually shaves off depends on how much you burst him when the shield is up.

Again, not saying he's weak, but that the points you listed for him being strong are kinda wack. What you have in your head is not coming across well in writing,