Riot: "Supports shouldn't do damage and have good AP ratios"

Wînter Fox·Dec 26, 2014·4 votes·2,854 views

Meanwhile: Oh wow, Vel'Koz is being taken bot? Oh joy, Annie and Morg are still queens of bot lane. Oh look, here's a promo of Brand support! http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/community/promotion/dark-horses-support-brand - How'd that happen?

{quoted}

Mages being used as a support doesn't make them a support. What's wrong with you?

I'm saying Mages are being used as supports because actual supports are being handicapped by Riot. Taric, Nami, Lulu, Janna, etc. are being gimped damage-wise purposely, and then Riot turns around and celebrates Brand support

40 Comments

TeemoJenkinsDec 26, 20146 votes

Leona Main: "AP Support? That's cute".

OnegarionDec 26, 20141 votes

I say the same as a thresh main with leona and nami as my back ups. Those nontraditional supports tend to cry a bit after I leave lane.

Knight SoIaire Dec 27, 20141 votes

i build leona asan ad bruiser

triforcxe rulezzzz (she can decimate towers)

NaelarstraszDec 26, 20143 votes

Mages being used as a support doesn't make them a support. What's wrong with you?

RaptameiDec 26, 20141 votes

{quoted}

Mages being used as a support doesn't make them a support. What's wrong with you?

If their best role is support, they are support.

NaelarstraszDec 26, 20141 votes

{quoted}

If their best role is support, they are support.

Annie is not a support. She's a mage. Through and through.

Knight SoIaire Dec 27, 20141 votes

still works wonders when played on bot instead of a normal support

its most beneficial for the team to exchange their support for a mage like annie thus she is called a support because thats the role she fills in her team

NaelarstraszDec 27, 20141 votes

Double carry bottom "works wonders" because it's a strange thing to come across. Annie has high base damage with moderate ratios, making her perfect for a "support". Either way, Annie is not support. The attempt to utilize her and even building support still makes the lane a double carry, despite usage of a champ.

Some champs are excellent for extremely aggressive match ups, like Annie. But again... Using Annie as a support does NOT make her a support. She's still a carry and is utilized with the high damage because of what she is.

This is why I despise carries having crowd control or means of escape, and I despise supports having even moderate damage ratios. It's failtastic "balancing", if you can even call it that.

KingsgraveDec 26, 20142 votes

Supports provide utility in terms of more resistances, MS increases, heals etc.,

Brand and Velkoz just provide a fuck ton of burst

Skia AsteriDec 26, 20146 votes

{quoted}

Supports provide utility in terms of more resistances, MS increases, heals etc.,

Brand and Velkoz just provide a fuck ton of burst

Vel'koz has decent peel.

KingsgraveDec 26, 20142 votes

[{quoted}](name=Skia Asteri,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jlagQ9sk,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2014-12-26T20:41:49.990+0000)

Vel'koz has decent peel.

Well hes a utility mage. Him being taken bot is no different than Morgana and Lux going there.

Brand going bot is no different than Annie going there because high burst + stun = pretty good for bot lane.

disregardableDec 26, 20143 votes

See, people don't take Lux bot for her utility though. They take her bot from her spam-E. The same reason they take Karma, Brand, and Zilean bot. Consistently high damage, ranged spam. Marksman can't do anything about it. Lux has CC-peel capabilities, but it's not the main way in which she is used, unlke Morg/Annie.

Knight SoIaire Dec 27, 20144 votes

Well hes a utility mage.

what are you smoking

vel koz is 100% burst mage with decent poke (get 6 drop someone to 60% of their hp with some stacks up ... ult and forget)

ppl take him bot because he has good base damage and is too slow for midlane where he can easily get jungle rekt

the thing is that supports cant keep up with those mages nor early nor late usualy this leads to scenarios where apc and adc melt the other adc before his support can do anything

Wînter FoxDec 26, 20143 votes

{quoted}

Supports provide utility in terms of more resistances, MS increases, heals etc.,

Brand and Velkoz just provide a fuck ton of burst

Damage is the best utility (aside from Thresh and Blitz's OP hooks). But because they're not letting actual supports deal damage, Mages are being taken bot instead who don't have that handicap.

KingsgraveDec 26, 20141 votes

{quoted}

Damage is the best utility (aside from Thresh and Blitz's OP hooks). But because they're not letting actual supports deal damage, Mages are being taken bot instead who don't have that handicap.

Supports doing damage and providing utility is broken though

Wînter FoxDec 26, 20144 votes

{quoted}

Supports doing damage and providing utility is broken though

But Mages doing damage and providing utility is perfectly fine?

KingsgraveDec 26, 20142 votes

{quoted}

But Mages doing damage and providing utility is perfectly fine?

They provide far less utility and far less peel than traditional supports

Wînter FoxDec 26, 20141 votes

Not really. Mages like Zyra, Morg, and Annie provide just as much if not more peel than Nami or Lulu can dish out.

OnegarionDec 26, 20141 votes

Its not all about peel though. Lulu's big slows AND shield helps a lot in terms of keeping your adc alive. She also can turn her opponents into a walking cuddly animal making them useless aside from walking. I think thats a bit better than you roots. Nami has the CC through her ult and Q and E as well as the speed ups through passive and her heals. Not really sure how you can say that not only peel alone is what matters, but also discrediting their utility outside of peel really isn't doing a fair analysis. Otherwise Soraka is one of the worst supports out there if peel alone is the deciding factor or the biggest.

Also how often do you really see annie/zyra supports anymore? I recently did 2 games of annie support, but other than that I rarely see them. Morg has essentially become a support first and a mage second now a days. You aren't comparing a full kit against each other. Peel alone doesn't come from just the support, but other champs as well.

Knight SoIaire Dec 27, 20141 votes

pick vel koz or other abomination and tap enemy adc from a far ult and forget enemy adc deleted ... best utility eu executed

thats the problem

Knight SoIaire Dec 27, 20141 votes

which proves more beneficial in actual botlane matchup (thats the problem)

heals work overtime there is no such heal that would have insanely long cooldown and would heal one target for loads of hp (besides ults) so burst wins

support items got so good that its actualy more beneficial for actual apc's to use them (yet they are useless on solo lanes) because they capitalize on that gold better

also succesfull kill lanes have higher impact on the game than passive heal lane (enemy is dead so they cant farm while your adc lifesteals and still gets those cs increasing his lead by a fkton)

which leads to a point where apc's like morgana annie brand and velkoz are more effective (they have mostly good base damages too) since they can easily attain more gold for your team and whatever gold they do get for themselves also has a bigger impact (this game is called kill the carry not league of legends - apc is better at that than support because all he realy can do is to exshaust the enemy ... the rest is used to assist in offensive actions )

CynicattDec 27, 20141 votes

{quoted}

Supports provide utility in terms of more resistances, MS increases, heals etc.,

Brand and Velkoz just provide a fuck ton of burst

Brand, Annie, Morg and Vel'koz have enough easy CC/other kinds of abillities as well to provide some peel. Definitely more CC than Sona has before level 6, and Sona just got her Q nerfed because apparently she was doing too much damage(lol) with her singular damaging ability.

VDc0zCqe0wDec 26, 20142 votes

did you find a time machine or what?

right now pure supports are perfectly viable (even too much imo)

and there is nothing wrong with Annie and Morgana being viable, i find them really fun to play, and i'm a Janna main

and that piece of shit named "Thresh" needs to be deleted from this game

OnegarionDec 26, 20141 votes

Hey i think we have an issue here. You're talking smack about my main. Want to take this out back?

Other than that tho I'm in agreeance with you. I rarely see these non traditional supports ever, but when I do they tend to have their 1 gimmick and tend to telecast their abilities with people who aren't smart with it. Makes it really easy to tell when that annie is going to go all in or the J4 support wants to engage. Unskilled support players don't konw how to mask it or see it so it makes them seem so strong.

Recently had a game where the enemy went Naut, Blitz, Ashe, Thresh, and I cna't remember the last one, but their whole premise was to 4 man TP anywhere and kill you. They got a very early lead of about 1-8, but as soon as we got use to their gimmick it was gg and they couldn't stand toe to toe against us or do anything in teamfights. Its how I feel about most of the nontraditional supports.

ChargeItDownMidDec 26, 20142 votes

[deleted]

Wînter FoxDec 26, 20143 votes

Well the support class is being outclassed by the mage class in the support role. The mage class can bring stuns and damage with no issue, while the support class can only bring utility but no damage. Long live the Brand supports

Knight SoIaire Dec 27, 20141 votes

the issue isnt realy on the mage side thou

its the spellthief edge which is able to provide not farming mages with gold to keep them relevant throughout the game after all those mages are the items that they buy

NaelarstraszDec 26, 20142 votes

{quoted} I'm saying Mages are being used as supports because actual supports are being handicapped by Riot. Taric, Nami, Lulu, Janna, etc. are being gimped damage-wise purposely, and then Riot turns around and celebrates Brand support

Riot is autistic like that, I'll give you that. Though imo, carries shouldn't have CC at all. Supports and tanks should be the ones with CC. But I'm nuts for thinking that, as it seems.

Desmond LawDec 26, 20141 votes

Taric I cry for preseason 4 Taric. His glorious ult 0.8 AP ratio was reduced to 0.5, his W's 0.7 AP ratio removed in favor of a .3 armor ratio, and his stun from .8 to .4

I used to be able to delete carries, but now I can't even 1v1 a Yi

DiostukosDec 26, 20141 votes

[{quoted}](name=Desmond Law,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jlagQ9sk,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2014-12-26T22:18:35.664+0000)

I cry for preseason 4 Taric. His glorious ult 0.8 AP ratio was reduced to 0.5, his W's 0.7 AP ratio removed in favor of a .3 armor ratio, and his stun from .8 to .4

I used to be able to delete carries, but now I can't even 1v1 a Yi

Go Trinity Force instead of Iceborn Gauntlet. Taric has pretty high base AD.

Ninja Tabi, Trailblazer(Juggernaut), Righteous Glory, Frozen Heart, Trinity Force, Spirit Visage/Randuins can make you pretty tanky while still dealing lots of damage.

RisurinDec 26, 20141 votes

honestly, the big difference i see from traditional supports and mage going bot, is that traditional supports rely on their team since their kit are more then often heavily team focus; whereas those "dark horse" support just want to kill bot lane, and be another ap carry in the game, which unlock the possibility of carrying the game more with your own abilities, rather then the ones of your teammates.

I've played my share of thresh support, paired with a silver5 adc to lane against diamonds, i can tell that after a few minutes of laning, i have no other choice then roam the map, because there is just nothing to be done bot. (which is also a problem of its own mind you, silvers vs diamonds is kinda boring to play). with a more ap focus support, i could have had the damage early to get maybe something done and take over the lane on my own, without having to rely on my adc to be playing well, or know how to play at all.

But we all know riot want this game to be very team focus. So i wouldn't be surprised if those "dark horse support" get changes to push them back mid rather then have traditionnal support buffs. At least in competitive (since they can actually rely on their team) traditional support will still have a place over there (i guess this is probably also true for the higher tiers of the ladders, since again you can rely more on your team up there).

DiostukosDec 27, 20141 votes

{quoted}

honestly, the big difference i see from traditional supports and mage going bot, is that traditional supports rely on their team since their kit are more then often heavily team focus; whereas those "dark horse" support just want to kill bot lane, and be another ap carry in the game, which unlock the possibility of carrying the game more with your own abilities, rather then the ones of your teammates.

I've played my share of thresh support, paired with a silver5 adc to lane against diamonds, i can tell that after a few minutes of laning, i have no other choice then roam the map, because there is just nothing to be done bot. (which is also a problem of its own mind you, silvers vs diamonds is kinda boring to play). with a more ap focus support, i could have had the damage early to get maybe something done and take over the lane on my own, without having to rely on my adc to be playing well, or know how to play at all.

But we all know riot want this game to be very team focus. So i wouldn't be surprised if those "dark horse support" get changes to push them back mid rather then have traditionnal support buffs. At least in competitive (since they can actually rely on their team) traditional support will still have a place over there (i guess this is probably also true for the higher tiers of the ladders, since again you can rely more on your team up there).

tfw the second supports solo-lane get nerfed to crap, but Riot then goes on to promote Midlaners going into the support role.

QuephaDec 27, 20141 votes

{quoted}

Vel'Koz good AP ratios

hilarious

5G8Nri0B54Dec 27, 20141 votes

Although another way you can just as easily put it is that you're seeing these AP mids bot because quite frankly, they can't exist in the current mid environment.

In 100 matches where your typical Brand goes up against an equally skilled Zed, who do you think is going to win?

Or not just assassins, have a Brand go up against an Orianna, both may do fairly in their 1v1 match-up although I'd argue Orianna would still win out, but who would be a much greater boon to their team when well farmed?

Just remember. Brand's AP scaling is laughably low, HOWEVER, he has decent bases and a Passive that scales off enemy hp. Why wouldn't he be a Support?

AtheosisXDec 27, 20141 votes

Meanwhile the traditional supports continue to dominate high elo play and are almost always picked by the pros. What's the problem again?

Solidair3Dec 27, 20141 votes

But Nami, Janna, and other supports are good because their AP goes toward utility rather than damage??? I win lane against mages all the time bot through good shield timing, heals, and CC lock.