And its basically her only/main damage spell... Mind you this is at max range...
Why in the world would anyone play this champ anymore?
Jesus riot you completely destroyed the champ, might aswell remove her from the game, her Q needs some damage back in a hotfix at this state.
Tokogawaruf10 votesAnd this is why Zoe was broken from the Release.
First her Q was so overpowered that she was permaban material or permaoneshoting in the Game, now shes unplayable since she doesnt deal Damage anymore. Her Design was broken beyond Repair and gutting her into almost unplayable was the only rescue for the Game itself.
PopcornBunni9 votes[sg-lux-2]
: 105 +20% AP (+67 + 32.5% AP from it proccing passive automatically) at 800- range for a total of 172 +52.5% AP
: 262.5 + 50% AP (+67 + 32.5% AP from it proccing passive automatically) at 2550+ range for a total of 329.5 + 82.5% AP
: 230 + 65% AP
The only time its doing less damage is firing it at point blank range without the recast, and this isn't even accounting for it priming her passive an additional time for her next auto.
Why does misinformation like this get attention.
Rexxiee3 votes[sg-lux-2]
The only time its doing less damage is firing it at point blank range without the recast, and this isn't even accounting for it priming her passive an additional time for her next auto.
Why does misinformation like this get attention.
The passive ONLY PROCS ON THE FIRST TARGET HIT.
Is that so hard to understand?
Illâoi Evê Siôn3 votesYes, because your thread is about Zoe's damage and not her wave clear.
Rexxiee2 votes[{quoted}](name=Illâoi Evê Siôn,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jYwBuPTF,comment-id=000b00000000,timestamp=2018-02-22T17:18:19.461+0000)
Yes, because your thread is about Zoe's damage and not her wave clear.
You know the aoe part can also hit champs right? its not minion damage only.
It makes her team fight even worse, because if anything blocks her Q then you're just firing a worse syndra Q.
BeatzBoyFTW7 votesUmm good?
ModWulf Helhammer7 votesThis isn't balance. It doesn't matter what your personal opinions on a champion are, doing something like this should never be the goal of game balance.
Ahristocats3 votesjust a headup
ModWulf Helhammer10 votesI'm not exactly sure what's what on that image, but I don't think we really have any reliable stats yet considering the patch has been out for all of about 2 and half hours
Ahristocats2 voteshow is it going to get better?
rengar has 43% win rate right now, and i agree that it's ot reliable because people need to learn him
what change heavily impacted zoe's gameplay that you need to master again now? literally nothing, now she can't oneshot with Q and need to deal damage with passive but it's impossible because i don't fucking know what's the point of that passive when you don't have spamable spells
and you would need to be in 525 range which means death if you're zoe
Illâoi Evê Siôn4 votesAre you arguing the importance of sample size atm?
Ahristocats1 votesthere are already 720 000 games played atm, it's not going to change anything now
the only thing that will change is people getting better at something like new rengar zoe wont change no matter how much time you wait
it has already been the case in the past multiple times in similar cases
Illâoi Evê Siôn4 votesThe website says 3476 games though. That's only for Platinum+. Where did you get the 720k games from?
Also interesting is that he 'best player' has 58.45% win rate. That's a pretty large disparity between average and max, so there's definitely a high skill cap there. Maybe Zoes will have to adjust their playstyles to no longer trying to burst someone with a single Q by spamming it continuously and instead trying to be a little more in the thick of it with a Spellblade-esque playstyle.
Ahristocats3 votesbest player win rate needs a week to be refreshed on lolalytic also i mistook the total games played in 8.4 and the zoe games played i'll give you that
3400 games is not enough i'll wait, i'm confident in the fact that it won't change because zoe is literally unplayable and i saw it with my own eyes, she deals no damage with Q which means the entire champ can't deal damage now, E has a long cd, Q doesn't waveclear anymore
those 3 nerfs is like reducing darius's noxian might ad to 50, reducing his hook range to 100 , and tell him "good luck kid"
Dope Solo1 votesQ is already highly spammable.
rework trundle2 votesBright green : average winrate Dark green : one trick winrate Purple ish : pick rate Red : ban rate
Hethalean2 votesThe goal was to remove troublesome parts of her kit. Of which there was a lot. It was hard to remove all of those and not expect her to be weak. They were just trying to end her frustrating interactions and then buff her after they see where all of that lands. That was the goal: to remove frustrating interactions. It wasn't to nerf into oblivion. You're misrepresenting their goal.
They admitted that this will likely put her in a weak state, and will buff her to where she needs to be. If you looked at the nerfs, there were subsequent buffs to help at least keep some of her power there, so they were obviously not trying to just nerf her to unuseability. I think that it is disingenuous to try to represent it that way.
Malix Farwin3 votesThe goal was to remove troublesome parts of her kit. Of which there was a lot. It was hard to remove all of those and not expect her to be weak. They were just trying to end her frustrating interactions and then buff her after they see where all of that lands. That was the goal: to remove frustrating interactions. It wasn't to nerf into oblivion. You're misrepresenting their goal.
They admitted that this will likely put her in a weak state, and will buff her to where she needs to be. If you looked at the nerfs, there were subsequent buffs to help at least keep some of her power there, so they were obviously not trying to just nerf her to unuseability. I think that it is disingenuous to try to represent it that way.
Gut a champion and fix them "Later" is terrible balance design.
Hethalean1 votesThat's also not what their goal was. "Fix them later" implies a rework of some scope (large, small, medium). "Fix them later" isn't really a numbers adjustment, which is where they wanted Zoe to be. They tried to put her in a spot that didn't just require a rework, but could put her where she needs to be with a numbers adjustment.. which is where Riot seems to want all of their champions to be. If you disagree with "fix them later" also counts as a numbers adjustment, I'm curious what your idea of a good balance design would be as I'm not sure what it would be. Also, I specifically said that I didn't think their goal was to 'gut a champ' when I said they were obviously not trying to nerf her to unuseability.
Malix Farwin1 votesThat's also not what their goal was. "Fix them later" implies a rework of some scope (large, small, medium). "Fix them later" isn't really a numbers adjustment, which is where they wanted Zoe to be. They tried to put her in a spot that didn't just require a rework, but could put her where she needs to be with a numbers adjustment.. which is where Riot seems to want all of their champions to be. If you disagree with "fix them later" also counts as a numbers adjustment, I'm curious what your idea of a good balance design would be as I'm not sure what it would be. Also, I specifically said that I didn't think their goal was to 'gut a champ' when I said they were obviously not trying to nerf her to unuseability.
"But we'd rather hit as many frustration points as we can in one go and address power later, rather than continuing to draw the process out. " "address power later" "ADDRESS POWER LATER"
Word for freaking word. How are they going to know what to buff "later" if no one will play her now. Syndra kite completely outshines Zoe's to the point that you are dumb to play Zoe over Syndra. Creeps do not block any of Syndra's kit while Syndra's kit does more damage with less RNG, and better wave clear.
Hethalean1 votesYes, but address power later doesn't mean fix later. Fixing an engine isn't the same as putting oil into it. You always almost have to address power later after a bit of work like this. Every change impacts a champion, and they have to address power later. That's half of patch notes. Buffs/nerfs (aka addressing power). Removing the frustration from her was needed, and there's a reason they beefed up her passive. That was to try to make it so she wasn't just absolutely useless later. However, there was such an outcry from this community by this (plus seeing her on the pro stage made it also evident) that they just had to rip the band aid off. There's something to be said about keeping the player base happen.
Also Syndra is similar yet different than Zoe. Syndra goes through very feast or famine roles. When she's OP, she can miss everything then still kill you with R. Zoe can't really. Also Zoe can CC from much farther away. Zoe also gets free summoners and activated items. Not all mages are the same (besides Zoe is kind of mage / assassin hybrid) so analyzing them on wave clear and burst isn't the only metric.
Rexxiee2 votesUmm good?
Because its so much better to play against azir, or ryze/cass who rush a tank item and still 100-0 you in a rotation.
BeatzBoyFTW1 votesBecause its so much better to play against azir, or ryze/cass who rush a tank item and still 100-0 you in a rotation.
Haven't played against all 3 of those in a while since mid's were spammed with nothing but Zoe, Yasuo & Zed. Nonetheless, don't pretend that her one-shot skill on a 5 second max cooldown is in any way healthy.
Starboyˇ5 votesI'd rather have her Q be underpowered and have her be unplayable then getting one shot by it
Malix Farwin1 votesI'd rather have her Q be underpowered and have her be unplayable then getting one shot by it
Thats not good balancing though.
Who Fed Ru5 votesmight aswell remove her from the game
why not?
Nyarlathοtep5 votesFinally. Now she MUST hit e to kill someone. God bless these changes.
ShuyinTheX4 votesRiot stated that they are willing to gut her damage right now and give her some back later.
This is what happens when kids do nothing but cry about a not-broken-champion for weeks.
Illâoi Evê Siôn4 votesYou're misinformed, see this comment or check it up yourself at her wiki page here. Please update that in your thread, otherwise you're just misleading people.
Rexxiee3 votes[{quoted}](name=Illâoi Evê Siôn,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jYwBuPTF,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-02-22T16:36:06.438+0000)
You're misinformed, see this comment or check it up yourself at her wiki page here. Please update that in your thread, otherwise you're just misleading people.
I have literally just played her and read her Q tool tip.
Damage at rank 5 105 to 265 with some garbage ap ratio.
Her Q does 0 damage without her passive, so basically she cannot kill waves anymore since the damage past the first target is less than a syndra Q.
Illâoi Evê Siôn4 votesMy response to this is the same as my response to your other comment.
nm10104 votesUh 430 + 131.25% ap is less than syndra q? Or do you just mean the AoE part?
Down voted without a response, goes to show some people just want to go out of their way to bitch about something. You're all doing the math without the fucking single target bonus damage and acting like her q does nothing now xD
The spell is still 600 + 131.25% ap at max range when you are level 18. With a 600 ap build and nothing else that is 1387.5 damage FROM JUST HER Q.
ModWulf Helhammer3 votesYeah, she needed nerfs, but I am never a fan of over nerfing. It just swings balance into the other direction of bad, which doesn't solve anything. My hope though is that since Riot actually acknowledged that she will be on the weak side after these nerfs, they are paying attention and will remedy it.
SetInMotion3 votesYes ive noticed that too, I just played a game and noticed she really sucks now lol but the nerf was definitley needed she was way too broken.
Diamond2Kappa2 votesThats why you dont play champa that people complain about hehe
Lauchmelder2 votesIs she doing less damage if you factor in the standard range she gets once she hits 6 too or is this just a "Zoe Q without redirecting it does less damage than a Syndra Q" post?
Rexxiee3 votes[{quoted}](name=Shuriman God,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jYwBuPTF,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-02-22T16:22:58.842+0000)
Is she doing less damage if you factor in the standard range she gets once she hits 6 too or is this just a "Zoe Q without redirecting it does less damage than a Syndra Q" post?
At max possible range and rank it does 265 with a lower ap ratio than syndra Q...
Its that bad.
Illâoi Evê Siôn5 votesSyndra's Q does 230 (+0.65 Ability Power) magic damage at rank 5, level 9.
Zoe's Q does 172 (+0.525 Ability Power) to 430 (+1.3125 Ability Power) magic damage based on distance traveled at rank 5, level 9. Damage can be further increased via Sleepy Trouble Bubble.
OP is misinformed, exaggerating or misleading us.
Rexxiee3 votes[{quoted}](name=Illâoi Evê Siôn,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jYwBuPTF,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2018-02-22T16:31:42.242+0000)
Syndra's Q does 230 (+0.65 Ability Power) magic damage at rank 5, level 9.
Zoe's Q does 172 (+0.525 Ability Power) to 430 (+1.3125 Ability Power) magic damage based on distance traveled at rank 5, level 9. Damage can be further increased via Sleepy Trouble Bubble.
OP is misinformed, exaggerating or misleading us.
Thats only at first target.
the aoe or the Q damage by itself is lower than a syndra Q at max rank with the same amount of AP.
Illâoi Evê Siôn5 votesAnd its basically her only/main damage spell... Mind you this is at max range...
Why in the world would anyone play this champ anymore?
Jesus riot you completely destroyed the champ, might aswell remove her from the game, her Q needs some damage back in a hotfix at this state.
You did not clarify that in any way in your thread.
Zoe is a single target Burst Mage. Wave clear is supposed to be a weakness of hers.
Malix Farwin2 votesTheres 0 point in this nerf because now no one will play her. You won't get any feedback and they pretty much just benched her until "a later date" basically screwing over ZZoe Mains.
And A Real Hiero3 votesGood.
Dope Solo1 votesTry getting good.
Chembaron Yamada2 votesThey will follow up with buffs to get her in a better spot. It wasn't healthy that so much of her power was located in her "only/main damage spell".
Instead, they spread the power over the kit. Ratio of W and passive got increased. Now she won't one shot squishies with her Q alone anymore and has to hit her CC for it, which is reasonable.
Other Burst Mages work the same way and rely on hitting their CC to unload their entire kit on the enemy.
Malix Farwin1 votesThey will follow up with buffs to get her in a better spot. It wasn't healthy that so much of her power was located in her "only/main damage spell".
Instead, they spread the power over the kit. Ratio of W and passive got increased. Now she won't one shot squishies with her Q alone anymore and has to hit her CC for it, which is reasonable.
Other Burst Mages work the same way and rely on hitting their CC to unload their entire kit on the enemy.
They didnt spread her power though they took 20% of her budgeted power from Q and buffed Q and W by 1% to compensate
Dope Solo1 votesArguably her power level was 40% over budget.
Malix Farwin2 votesIf you are still unsure that the change guttered her to the point that she may as well not even exists at lvl 6 where everyone gets thier big power spike: With just Doran's Ring: P: 35(+7) Q: 188(+17.5) at Max Range W: 70(+21) E: 60(+14)
With most of her damage blockable by creeps vs.
Syndra Q: 140(+23) W: 70(+25) E: 70(+21) R: 90(+7) per sphere 270(+21) total
Syndra Strengths over Zoe
Zoe's Strengths over Syndra
Perhaps the biggest problem is going to be farming in lane she will just get shoved under turret by pretty much any mid laner now and her under turret CS capabilities will be quite awful. a 20% nerf to Q on top of the more sparkles change was way over the top. This is NOT good balancing. Just because you hate the champ and wanted her nerf does not mean she should be unplayable.
Chembaron Yamada4 votesYou should acknowledge that her E lets her double the damage of her Q, tho.
Modl Ryden l1 votesThey said they gutted her utility and will address power in later patches. They know she's weak but she will get compensation soon.
