So are we going to see an ap assassin item?

Succubús GF·Feb 14, 2017·51 votes·4,161 views

I mean considering how many assassin items have come out, WHICH ARE BEING NERFED BECAUSE BROKEN ahem we should also see a release of a new assassin item, for ability based champions ( )Are all unable to use any of the new ad assassin items, at least not well or even cost efficiently. But no no, creating an ad assassin item that is a better banshees is fine, really np. No.. favoritism or anything :^) It's glaringly obvious that the ad champions needed something new, but seriously, theres hardly an item that's specifically FOR ap assassins, yet how many are for ad assassins?

115 Comments

AhristocatsFeb 14, 201727 votes

Look at what happened to rylai which was supposed to be a bruiser item, and to abyssal which was supposed to ALSO be a bruiser item

look at what happened to DFG

you can't have a nice ap itemization without mages to abuse it

Succubús GFFeb 14, 201711 votes

Rip dfg, you will be missed dearly ;-; The same could be said for lethality items, ranged is abusing it when it was intended for melee

The Great DivideFeb 14, 20178 votes

I think most every AD is abusing lethality. Rengar, Kha, and Riven are all considered to be less fun than usual right now. Yes ranged may abuse it more ( MissFortune ), but that's not to say that it's only abused by range.

BootlesslyFeb 14, 20173 votes

I mean we can look at item 3074 and item 3748 and be thankful that at least ADC can't build those. Or that AD fighters can't build item 3085 , I mean can you imagine Master Yi building it and being absolutely unstoppable with autos attacks flying everywhere. Riot can itemize for ranged and non-ranged champions, but they won't because they don't want to shove adcs into one set of items they have to build every game over and over again.

Part Of The CultFeb 14, 20171 votes

item 1419 item 3009 item 3124 item 3153 item 3065 item 3083

BoilTheOilFeb 14, 20171 votes

what is that build

SpecterVonBarenFeb 15, 20175 votes

Looks like a WW build.

ElikainFeb 14, 20173 votes

Frost Queen's Claim was also (ab)used by the mages when it was pretty good for poke supports as well.

rtbf76109271Feb 15, 20171 votes

People have no idea what the word "abuse" means. Support poke mages using an ap gold item which gets gold off of poke is not abuse. It is exactly what you expect them to build. Like literally the item designed for them.

101100111000Feb 15, 20175 votes

He means they used the item mid.

Mages used to start spellthief's mid at one point.

Kitten of EvilFeb 15, 20171 votes

Yeah midlaners were using it because right after mana regen was cut from basically all AP items, it still had a huge amount of mana regen, along with a strong active and an always-on +15 damage to spells.

BootlesslyFeb 15, 20171 votes

Yeah, I remember that. People first backed for Frost Queen's Claim on Leblanc and it was stupid. gold bonus, costed almost nothing and late game it almost always made sure you got your target.

CeolFeb 14, 20177 votes

What about utilising close range passives/actives to prevent abuse from the majority of burst mages. Or even, items that reduce the effectiveness of stats that mages generally build.

e.g.

Tormented Rod - 2850g +85 AP +10 Magic Penetration +5% Movement Speed [Unique: Active - Perpetual Torment:] Marks a target for 2 seconds (300 range), after the 2 seconds are over, the mark pops, dealing an additional 20% AP damage dealt by the user to the opponent while marked.

Phantasmic Cloak - 2700g +70 AP +25 Magic Penetration -10% Cooldown Reduction [Unique: Passive - Dance of Demise:] For every champion kill, gain 40% movement speed decaying over 3 seconds.

Glory ln DeathFeb 14, 20172 votes

I think the general idea is good - to incentive the item(s) for assassins while discouraging mages from making the items core. However, the examples you created probably aren't there yet.

The "Tormented Rod" is a LOT of AP for its cost (considering how few >80 AP items there are currently), and mages would be likely to pick it up just for that even with the short range on the active. Battle mages or close combat mages in general would certainly take it (Ryze, Lissandra, etc), and it isn't too hard to believe that it could become a standard anti-assassin mage item (You're going to jump on me? Here, let me just mark you, unload my burst, then Zhonya's/Flash and laugh when the mark kills you.)

For the "negative stats" idea, I like it when looking at items like Sterak's Gage (Marksmen abusing it? -20% crit from items) since it's easy to distinguish between the intended class's desired stats and the abusing class's. With AP assassins and mages, it's a bit harder - both like AP, mana, and cdr. I don't know if you could really take any of those away without making the item equally unappealing for the assassins.

As far as item passives/actives that encourage assassins but discourage mages, what about a persistent effect while you are close (200-300 units) to an enemy champion - increased movespeed or cdr, for example - it could be the AP version of Black Cleaver's "Rage" passive: dealing magic damage to a champion within 200 units gives you 20 movement speed for 2 seconds; kills/assists on a champion give 60 movespeed, regardless of distance. A few non-assassins might be able to take advantage of it (mostly hybrid champions like Jax and Warwick, if they went for an AP build), but very few mages would want that effect very much.

Or, while you are within 200 units of an enemy champion, your abilities cool down twice as fast (possibly with an internal cooldown - approaching an enemy triggers this effect, lasting for up to 5 seconds with a 15 second cooldown). Killing an enemy while the effect is active grants the effect for an additional 5 seconds, regardless of enemy proximity.

I feel like those kinds of effects (utility, rather than straight damage) would be very attractive to assassins while being unappealing to mages either because of the effects themselves or the proximity requirement. They would help assassins stick to their targets more easily and also get out if they score a kill (increased movespeed to run, or cooldowns halved so they can get their escape back up quickly).

SkelenthFeb 14, 20176 votes

Well, at least half of those use item 3146 (not sure about Elise and Nidalee), and Leblanc simply tries to maximize AP and CDR like most other mages.

Succubús GFFeb 14, 20173 votes

Elise and nidalee cant buy gunblade. Elise actually works better with protobelt and it would share the cooldown of gunblade, and nidalee doesn't really have a use for it

SpearKittyFeb 15, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Afk Warding,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jRbstIXj,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-02-14T12:30:19.561+0000)

Elise and nidalee cant buy gunblade. Elise actually works better with protobelt and it would share the cooldown of gunblade, and nidalee doesn't really have a use for it

I'll reply to both of your comments pertaining to Nid here:

Yes, Nidalee does scale with AD. Her cougar Q execute scales from 75% to a maximum of 288.75% of her AD, and it's why AD Nidalee can still sometimes work when played correctly.

Second, Elise can't buy Gunblade, but Nidalee certainly can. I wouldn't recommend it because it's too expensive for what it does for her imo, but it's an alright item on her because of the dual scaling on cougar Q. On top of that the active is decently strong, and that gives here some ok sticking power.

Unfortunately I can't speak to Elise here, but from my understanding Protobelt is just overall better on her.

Critmaster GarenFeb 14, 20176 votes

you mean like those?

item 3100 item 3001 item 3285

Kitten of EvilFeb 14, 20174 votes

The problem is that all AP champions scale with one (and a secondary) stat: AP and CDR.

Whereas your AD champions have different scaling based on their role: AD assassins scale with AD and armor pen because their abilities do physical damage but they don't basic attack much. AD juggernauts/bruisers often scale with base or total AD and HP, because they're meant to build a damage item or two and they like Sheen procs but they still need to be beefy to function. ADCs scale with AD and crit, since most of their damage comes from attacks and they have attack steroids.

That's a lot of levers you can tune to address the specific class you need to address. Unless you added some new dimension, there's not much diversity that's even possible with AP champions, because even the AP assassins often don't rely much on basic attacks (with a couple exceptions). All you can really do is tweak base damages, AP scaling, and CC duration.

Votable JesterFeb 14, 20171 votes

Magic Pen.

Still not as many as AD, but it is a third (more if you consider percent and flat separately).

Kitten of EvilFeb 14, 20171 votes

Well right, but they've seemingly moved away from that. Old Vel'Koz and old Zyra were pretty strong with Mpen builds, but now they're built like everyone else.

Votable JesterFeb 15, 20171 votes

And yet I see Sorcery Boots and Void Staff almost every game. It's still a common stat for mages.

Kitten of EvilFeb 15, 20173 votes

Both of those are cases of "the other items just aren't as good." It's the same with Marks (red runes) actually. I mean, what else are you going to get as a mage? MPen is the only "Primary" red rune that's any good for mages, while ADs can choose between AD, Lethality, and AS (or even Crit if you wanted!)

Similarly, Sorcerer's boots are the only good offensive option for a lot of mages, since additional CDR typically isn't necessary once you're already at or near the cap from some combination of item 3001 item 3152 item 3100 item 3165 item 3157 and runes.

And Void Staff is just incredibly strong against everyone, since it's 35% total Magic Penetration. It works just as well against tanks as squishies.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad those items are all in the game, as it does add some diversity, but Riot hasn't shown any interest in increasing the availability of MPen in game or supporting weird low-AP high-pen builds.

Votable JesterFeb 15, 20171 votes

They just need to make more AP items with unique passives and actives to actually differentiate them. Right now there really doesn't seem to be anything unique they can do with just stats for AP itemization without being either useless or op.

SchmidttyGamesFeb 14, 20173 votes

item 3115 Nashor's Tooth would seem to qualify. I would also argue that item 3100 Lich Bane is most certainly an AP Assassin item.

Succubús GFFeb 14, 201710 votes

Nashor's is only really good on Azir Diana Kayle . They all share components of a fighter/mage. Diana being an exception to a half assassin, half fighter. Lich bane is hardly an assassin item, that would be like saying item 3285 is an assassin item, it isn't utilized for assassins, just on hit ap champions Kassadin Ekko Diana Fizz Teemo Ziggs Evelynn

NineTailedMysticFeb 14, 20176 votes

Luden's was for Assassins. It was the replacement for DFG.

AmazoXFeb 14, 20171 votes

Diana is classified as a Diver by Riot Games.

RavenMagusFeb 14, 20172 votes

She plays like an assassin though. She jumps in and deletes someone.

Sometimes I feel like the entire "Diver" category is just "Assassin But Better".

Spaceman5pffFeb 14, 20178 votes

Ludens would definitely be an item for AP assassins to buy.

High AP. Movement Speed. Adds AP scaling burst.

Just because it is good on all Ap's doesn't meant it can't be an assassin item.

Cleaver is a bruiser item (or was designed to be) yet everyone and their cat uses it.

OrangesilkFeb 15, 20172 votes

I mean Kassadin Ekko Diana Fizz Evelynn ARE AP Assassins. The only weird examples there are Teemo who is a very particular champion and Ziggs who uses the proc to pop structures.

It's not as if "assassin" items are never used by non-assassin champions. Unless you wanna tell me Jhin MissFortune Riven Jayce Pantheon Quinn Varus MonkeyKing Tryndamere are assassins.

DaNinadFeb 15, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I mean ARE AP Assassins. The only weird examples there are who is a very particular champion and who uses the proc to pop structures.

It's not as if "assassin" items are never used by non-assassin champions. Unless you wanna tell me are assassins.

Tryndamere and wukong kind of are assassins, and with the new build quinn pretty much 100-0's anything

OrangesilkFeb 15, 20171 votes

Wuk is a diver, he's all about that AoE knockup, and Trynd is... something very special that I agree we can say kinda can behave as an assassin sometimes yeah.

Quinn being broken however doesn't exactly make her an assassin, it only makes her kinda broken. Kinda like how Jayce gets to 100-0 you so easily without being an assassin.

UnboundCreatorFeb 15, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=RAMP Schmidtty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jRbstIXj,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-02-14T11:28:43.361+0000)

Nashor's Tooth would seem to qualify. I would also argue that Lich Bane is most certainly an AP Assassin item.

Nashors tooth is NOT an assassin item.. do you even know what assassins are?

SchmidttyGamesFeb 15, 20172 votes

Works out pretty well on Elise and a few other AP assassins that utilizes their AA's.

Do you know how to make an argument without resorting to attacks or were you simply trained to be an asshole?

UnboundCreatorFeb 15, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=RAMP Schmidtty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jRbstIXj,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2017-02-15T08:02:06.527+0000)

Works out pretty well on Elise and a few other AP assassins that utilizes their AA's.

Do you know how to make an argument without resorting to attacks or were you simply trained to be an asshole?

You think i'm an asshole and asking if you know what assassins are is an attack? Sorry but you're in for a reality check once you get done with school and get into real life. Assassins have burst. Nashors does not provide burst but consistent damage. Therefor it's not an assassin item. Did I explain that well enough? Also you insulted me in your post "were you trained so be an asshole".. I hope you grow up one day

EuthenaasiaFeb 15, 20171 votes

Nashors provides very consistent damage on top of champions that already have burst, alongside CDR which is useful on an AP Assassin. Are you ever going to learn context or did your school also teach you this?

UnboundCreatorFeb 18, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Nashors provides very consistent damage on top of champions that already have burst, alongside CDR which is useful on an AP Assassin. Are you ever going to learn context or did your school also teach you this?

Nashor's is not an assassin item. The only assassin who uses it is Diana. Guess what?? Riot even said diana isn't considers an assassin but a diver. Stay butthurt bronzie.

ThefrostyvikingFeb 15, 20171 votes

The issue is most likely that AP assassin builds are nowhere near as cost efficient as the lethality builds that the AD assassins use.

Seriously, damage, resistance penenetration and movement speed along with various passive's are all present on the lethality items. Who in their right minds would think that adding those would not break the game?

To compare, AP assassins gain damage, some mobility but less than the AD counterparts, sustain if item 3146 and less survivability because item 3814 is busted. Doesn't help that item 3147 deals true damage either.

I played Diana and akali a fair bit in the bloodmoon game mode. And i seriously had issue's with AD assassins going edge of night because i had no way to beat them 1v1 without removing it first. And that was fairly hard if they moved around. Altho to their defense, full on AP Diana oneshot anything without the edge of night passive.

Assassin and diver balance is a bit nonexistent.

Kelly KFeb 15, 20171 votes

Build a zhonyas

ThefrostyvikingFeb 15, 20171 votes

Zhonya does help a lot... it prevents your armor from dropping to 0 if a lethality user comes around which is a massive blessing. And the active is great too...sometimes.

But it's....inferior defensively in most cases, not all but most. Because while it can block bigger abilities or just timed ones it causes you to stand still which is a huge taboo in normal cases. The only reason one can't outright call the item bad is that it´s a armor item for AP champs. Edge of night is far superior due to the fact that you don't lose any mobility and you gain both flat damage and well...lethality which causes you do deal even more damage in addition to movement speed and the active.

Doesn't help that a Zhonya start cripples many mages mana early since nearly all of them have been balanced around having a very early mana providing item.

Kelly KFeb 16, 20171 votes

most mages have AOE and can kite with range and cc assassins usually have to all in one target barely any aoe or range and no cc, really the only ones i find abusing the items are the adcs.

ThefrostyvikingFeb 16, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Olga of Kiev,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jRbstIXj,comment-id=00010002000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-16T14:50:17.428+0000)

most mages have AOE and can kite with range and cc assassins usually have to all in one target barely any aoe or range and no cc, really the only ones i find abusing the items are the adcs.

Except all the stats added up allow everyone else besides the ADC to oneshot literally anything that has less than 150 armor. I saw a kha6 kill a 280 armor rammus and worst part, the math adds upp. But the issue was that it happened in seconds before anyone could even react.

Take a good look at korea, they are spamming Quinn, talon,zed,rengar,kha6 and nocturne right now.

Because all these guys can start oneshotting carries early as hell with lethality and snowball the game to a very quick win. Meanwhile the ADC's you speak of Jhin MissFortune both get oneshot by those guys as well. The idea of the assassin reworks were go open for more counter play but lethality and armor shredd stacking bridged that gap splendidly.

And edge of night....a item that was promised to AD assassin as a tool to allow them to make plays in a assassin-eque style but instead the effect is that anyone whom build it turns into a bully that can win virtually any trade because they get to ignore 1 ability from the enemy. This between it's short cooldown and long uptime is a mayor issue.

Just in my last game i played Quinn jungle. My opponent jungler was nocturne.

We both when lethality builds and we both went around oneshotting everything besides the tanks. His ultimate alone did half my health and my passive+AA did the same to him. Now do tell me, do you think it's alright that a specific build exists that allows you to win virtually any trade by means of ignoring their ability and killing them before they can fire another?

Even in EU and NA we have this going on,

Jayce or Quinn top or mid. Graves jungle Varus mid or bot. Jhin, mf or varus bot. Whichever support is wanted.

And everyone on the team stacks lethality to snowball and end the game before the opponents can even begin to catch up. It´s like building lethality lowers the difficulty while allowing you to reap the same rewards. There are a lot of threads about this on the forums.

So in Korea assassins are permabanned along with Quinn. In EU and NA we are trying to fit in as many ranged lethality users as possible into a single team for the sake of ending before anyone can stop us. And all this started with the lethality buffs.

ElikainFeb 14, 20173 votes

Hard to make AP assassin items because there's no distinction between an AP assassin and a burst mage. AD assassins VS Marksmen is an entirely different matter.

Akali is going to be reworked but she's in a decent spot. Don't see a problem with Kat in terms of her damage. Eve is going to be reowrked and in this version of her, it's really hard to give her something meaningful without maknig it broken because of the perma-stealth. LeBlanc has been doing pretty good, that's why they nerfed her. Nidalee... don't know what you want from her. Her AP spears are doing pretty high AP damage and then she gets to pounce on targets for the executes.

Really, no AP assassin suffers from the lack of AP assassin items because they can get the same value out of regular AP items.