When is Garen getting reworked?

Moody P·Feb 12, 2019·4 votes·3,047 views

Garen deserves at least a small rework because he really doesn't offer anything that isn't done better by someone else. His biggest saving grace is the reliability of Villainy but nobody including Garen players likes it.

One could say his mechanical skill floor is too low and I would agree. But my main complaint here is that Garen is disgustingly low-value for how limited his kit actually is and the utilities he does offer are stronger from other champions.

Hell, for being basically a pure damage champion with some of the lowest utility for a juggernaut his damage isn't even spectacular unless he manages to get very ahead of everyone else.

Can we make Garen good for something?

26 Comments

Critmaster GarenFeb 12, 20195 votes

there was another discussion a few days back, and one thing they could do with his villainy is to have it "unlock" at lvl 16, similar to how darius ult gets an additional bonus with the full reset on kills.

the main reason why garen isnt allowed to chose the villain himself is, because it would be broken in lane, and he would always just chose his lane opponent.

but if he was allowed to chose the villain freely at lvl 16 (like a minute cooldown) with a mechanic like kindreds passive, it could really help his trash lategame.

https://imgur.com/a/0w9IpjL

this is basically garens power curve. i wouldnt mind his early and midgame being weak to mediocre, if his lategame wasnt so trash. letting him chose the villain himself at his rank 3 ult would specifically improve him at later game stages.

other things they can do to improve his lategame

his base ad/lvl is lower than other juggernauts. giving him 6 base ad by lvl 18 would bring him up to par in base stats
same with his health. he has 2048 health at lvl 18 when most juggers have around 2300. increase his base health at lvl 18 by ~200
give his w passive the treatment and give him +1 armor/mr on champion takedowns that dont count towards the 40 resist cap

Moody PFeb 12, 20192 votes

That's not what I mean. He does need flat improvements but Garen needs a real defined niche to provide beyond his damage output, because only being useful for damage basically means you are either overtuned or worthless

Critmaster GarenFeb 12, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jMTvej6I,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-02-12T21:52:13.902+0000)

That's not what I mean. He does need flat improvements but Garen needs a real defined niche to provide beyond his damage output, because only being useful for damage basically means you are either overtuned or worthless

eh. this wouldnt give garen some sort of specific strategic niche, but he can be tuned pretty easily as a carry imo.

and letting him chose his villain himself could put strategic pressure on the enemy team.

for example, you could split push with him and chose the villain to be someone who the enemy team really wants to answer your split push with. this means it would either be more difficult, or the enemy team would have to send someone else, theyd rather have in a teamfight.

like, the main advantage would just be for garen, that the villainy passive and a huge part of your power budget wouldnt be fucking useless half the time.

i dont need villainy on the enemy lulu, because she happened to get a kill by accident.

if you want to teamfight, you pick a target that you can actually fight. if you want to splitpush/answer splitpush, you would pick the one who youd probably fight in the sidelane. if you can reach a priority target on the enemy team, you could pick that guy.

Moody PFeb 12, 20191 votes

personally I want a more utilitarian approach which would guarantee his value in high elo and is a laughably vacant slot in the game for some reason

literally something as simple as tuning W to have some team protecting benefits or a way to transfer his healing to others for a few seconds would be tremendous without having to impact his identity as a juggernaut

I would like to see some mechanical change as well, maybe something that lets Garen achieve his E isolation in his kit by marking someone so he can more reliably max his damage

NemeBroFeb 15, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jMTvej6I,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-02-12T17:13:40.860+0000)

Garen deserves at least a small rework because he really doesn't offer anything that isn't done better by someone else. His biggest saving grace is the reliability of Villainy but nobody including Garen players likes it.

One could say his mechanical skill floor is too low and I would agree. But my main complaint here is that Garen is disgustingly low-value for how limited his kit actually is and the utilities he does offer are stronger from other champions.

Hell, for being basically a pure damage champion with some of the lowest utility for a juggernaut his damage isn't even spectacular unless he manages to get very ahead of everyone else.

Can we make Garen good for something?

Yeah Garen's design sucks balls. I've been saying it for years.

His AOE damage is pitiful, he is by design intended to do damage to a single target. Yet his single target DPS is lower than juggernauts who are AOE powerhouses like Darius, and laughably lower than other dedicated single target beefy boys like Yorick. He also has less CC than seemingly most of the other juggernauts.

His only values are his high out of combat regen and his high survivability.

HammermancerFeb 12, 20191 votes

he spins better than anyone, also he has armor shred which stacks with cleaver.

frankly i'd love to see his mechanics require more input even if it results in a buff.

Critmaster GarenFeb 12, 20192 votes

{quoted}

he spins better than anyone, also he has armor shred which stacks with cleaver.

frankly i'd love to see his mechanics require more input even if it results in a buff.

cleavers armor shred stacks multiplicative with the shred on his spin, which makes the item lower value for him than most other champions.

i wouldnt mind if the armor shred on his e would be replaced by 1% max health physical damage on spins and auto attacks. so basically the bonus he gets from villainy just not as true damage.

but thats besides the main issue and alone wont be enough for him imo.

The thigh guyFeb 12, 20191 votes

Sure. So long as the 70% hp true damage point and click execute gets removed.

SucctionFeb 14, 20192 votes

I do hate his ult as well, but you have to admit it's not quite 70%.

The thigh guyFeb 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I do hate his ult as well, but you have to admit it's not quite 70%.

If you’re an adc it is. XD 425 base is almost 1/3 of your health. Then it does 40% missing hp or some shit.

SucctionFeb 15, 20192 votes

425 base is less than 1/4 of your health. If you're at 70% health it'll do 425 + 250 lol

Critmaster GarenFeb 15, 20191 votes

{quoted}

425 base is less than 1/4 of your health. If you're at 70% health it'll do 425 + 250 lol

this is also before resistances, unless the guy specifically happens to be the villain.

for an ultimate ability ~ 600 or higher single target damage is also not too crazy in a game where champions have 2000 to 3000 damage aoe abilities.

The thigh guyFeb 15, 20191 votes

{quoted}

425 base is less than 1/4 of your health. If you're at 70% health it'll do 425 + 250 lol

Your math is off sir. And I said 1/3.

SucctionFeb 15, 20193 votes

I mean I'm not really sure how I can argue with someone who isn't able to calculate quarters.

425 is less than a quarter of 2000. At 70% health, that means you're on 1400, and missing 600. 40% of 600 is 240. So it's 425 + 240 then? So now you're even further off? Or are we in some world where 425 + 240 = 70% of 2000?

The thigh guyFeb 15, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I mean I'm not really sure how I can argue with someone who isn't able to calculate quarters.

425 is less than a quarter of 2000. At 70% health, that means you're on 1400, and missing 600. 40% of 600 is 240. So it's 425 + 240 then? So now you're even further off? Or are we in some world where 425 + 240 = 70% of 2000?

Except no Adc is getting 2k hp before 6 items! Da fuq? When did adc becomes a pseudo tank?

SucctionFeb 15, 20192 votes

I don't know if you're trolling or just don't know what "2000" means.

ADCs have a base health of around 2100 at level 18, which is around 2.5-3 items plus boots generally.

If Garen has rank 3 ult, 90% of the time his target is going to be somewhere between 15 and 18.

The thigh guyFeb 15, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I don't know if you're trolling or just don't know what "2000" means.

ADCs have a base health of around 2100 at level 18, which is around 2.5-3 items plus boots generally.

If Garen has rank 3 ult, 90% of the time his target is going to be somewhere between 15 and 18.

Now account for the 1000 damage that comes from his triforce proc q. Reduce r by like maybe 40% for armor (that no adc can afford) 600 damage.

You’re nice 2000 hp Adc is down to 1400 and is missing a large chunk of health.

SucctionFeb 16, 20191 votes

We weren't even counting his other abilities, but even if we do, they're not dealing 1k damage without a full lethality build.

You mentioned "70% true damage point and click nuke". Not sure why you'd change that and bring in his Q and "armor".

The thigh guyFeb 16, 20191 votes

{quoted}

We weren't even counting his other abilities, but even if we do, they're not dealing 1k damage without a full lethality build.

You mentioned "70% true damage point and click nuke". Not sure why you'd change that and bring in his Q and "armor".

I’m accounting for the adc armor to make your argument strong. And no garen is pressing r before using q. That’s stupid.

SucctionFeb 16, 20191 votes

My argument is that Garen does not have a "70% true damage point and click nuke".

Also, Garen's ult is never affected by armor because it doesn't deal physical damage.

SaevumFeb 15, 20191 votes

If Garen is ever reworked, there are some guidelines to unfortunately follow cause he resembles the newcomer champion pick:

Has to kinda remain simple. Like Sion or Darius degree simple.
Has to preserve some sort of regen somewhere like he has always have. That's part of the Garen traits.
Preferrably keep the silence. Somewhere. I would say optional though.
HE HAS TO SPIN cause DARIUS has a joke about it.
And the ultimate of the big Sword (Demacian Justice), it's in a cinematic, so it's also a must.

Critmaster GarenFeb 15, 20193 votes

{quoted}

If Garen is ever reworked, there are some guidelines to unfortunately follow cause he resembles the newcomer champion pick:

Has to kinda remain simple. Like Sion or Darius degree simple.

Has to preserve some sort of regen somewhere like he has always have. That's part of the Garen traits.

Preferrably keep the silence. Somewhere. I would say optional though.

HE HAS TO SPIN cause DARIUS has a joke about it.

And the ultimate of the big Sword (Demacian Justice), it's in a cinematic, so it's also a must.

he just needs a yorick level update. (as in the update they did in 9.2)

basically just some number tweaks and a mini update to the villainy passive.

he needs more agency over the ability. thats really the largest problem with it for me. every single other juggernaut has agency over his own "juggernaut ability", the main steroid that allows them to be carries.

darius has control over how he stacks his bleed. illaoi has full control over the use of her tentacles. even urgot if he can be considered a jugg is in control of his leg procs.

yorick is in control over his minions, when to summon them and at which target to send them. his update with the last patch mainly gave him increased control over his maiden.

the fact that garen has no control whatsoever over who gets marked as the villain, while the abilitiy ties up a massive chunk of his power budget to the point that he scales like shit against enemies who arent the villain, is the biggest problem with the mechanic.

thats why i suggested to have villainy "unlock" at rank 3 justice, similar to how darius ult unlocks at rank 3 and gets the full reset. mid/late, garen should be able to chose the villain himself, similar to how kindred can chose her mark.

GreenetteFeb 15, 20191 votes

Being able to choose your villain would make him even stronger in low elo/casual play, where he's already very strong. No one respects his output and peeling is a mess, he would guarantee himself a high value kill and could even just build item 3800 item 3193 to bulldoze his way to the villain.

I like the idea though and its literally the only proactive change they could make to his kit since all his spells are so basic. Maybe add a second input to his Q, first proc gives him the speed and cleanse and the second proc adds the silence? It would give 2 aa resets and would let him choose who to silence but it still wouldn't address anything lol.

The very basic nature of his spells limits Riot in buffing or tweaking him into viability and honestly, I think he should be balanced and reworked as a carry rather than a juggernaut. Add scaling damage based on how many villains he's killed, or add unlock the 1%hp shred onto his E after he's killed x number of villains idk. Maybe extend the 60% damage reduction of his W if he blocks cc perfectly with the initial cast.

bluefire mark 2Feb 15, 20191 votes

He's never getting one really. I want his r changed as it doesnt match his character at all. But riot says they want him to remain a simple starter champion

GelielJul 29, 20191 votes

I like the idea of the unlock at level 16. I also think his W being able to provide a temp better healing for him, and shield or heal surrounding friendlies or one friendly champ would be cool. Or maybe it could reset his passive healing. There's a few good options to change his kit while keeping the skills mostly the same.