They've become the Pantheons of bot lane. No one can really beat them early game (unless you just CC lock them until they die, but that's not a valid excuse), and then they snowball and hard carry their team. You have to just AFK farm from a mile away and hope that the rest of your team is doing well, and that your jungler will camp you.
But apparently that's okay, since Draven and Lucian were both just buffed.
sevenkill1 votesYeah and noone can beat Ashe late game but u didnt say anything, did you?
Niyumi1 votesAshe doesn't up and one shot you late game. :P
And you can prevent Ashe from reaching late game, she has a garbage early game (She might be the only ADC that does). If you kill her a lot, play an aggressive lane, she never reaches that point.
Paroe1 votesLucian is really only strong right now because botrk is strong. You could shift lucians power quite a bit by making his passive unable to apply on hit effects, but crit.
However lucian is an AD caster, much like graves and varus. A lot of their damage is meant to come from their abilities when compared to standard marksman. Nerfing him in such a way that ruins any caster synergies is disingenuous to his archetype.
Niyumi1 votesLucian is strong even before he buys BORK. Level 3, he will beat any ADC not named Draven in a fight. Even level 2, when he has his E. BORK just amplifies the issue.
ADC Is Trash1 votesI kinda disagree with Lucian being strong. Draven is busted though, he has been the best ADC in bot for a few patches now, ever since bork got nerfed and Cait can't use Runnans as well. For starters, Draven is busted That is a huge understatement, in my opinion, I know Draven has always been about doing huge amounts of damage, and it was okay when the cost of crit was what was really holding him back. Now, however, he can go full ad due to the changes to his Q. Furthermore, he really doesn't have a weak spot anymore. Becuase of his passive, he is always getting more gold than a marksman who has the same stats as him (Kills, deaths, assists, farm etc.), and Fervor working the way it does, prolonged combat with Draven gets riskier. Most champions that can burst like that lose a lot of their power, but Draven retains it due to the mandatory management of your axes than any Draven needs to have. Lucian is another story So the issue is actually bork, not Lucian. So the way new bork works, it apply's its bonuses per auto (not the active). Every time Lucian casts a spell he gets 2 autos, giving him twice the amount of use from bork, as say a Kalista or Varus. This isn't a Lucian issue, it's a bork is still broken on Lucian. So how can this be fixed? Ethier another Cait nerf needs to happen so it specifically cannot interact with Lucian the way it does now, or bork also needs to do reduced damage along with the light slinger proc.
Its not that they're unbeatable, but you are right, some fine tuning to both of them needs to happen so we don't have another round of only 2 different ADC's showing up in games. Remeber, nerfing bork will kill some other champs that need it, so it's just the interaction with Lucian that is the problem.
Niyumi1 votesAs I said below, Lucian is strong even before he buys BORK. His early game is too absurdly strong with how broken he gets once he buys a BORK.
I've been calling Draven broken since I started this game though, more than two years ago.
ADC Is Trash1 votesBut... Lucian has always been a lane bully. Always .If he isn't strong before items he would be a late game carry... and he falls of late.
And if you think this draven is broken, his old passive used to be a bleed, if it makes you feel better
Niyumi1 votesOkay, well there's being a lane bully, and then there's being the ADC version of Pantheon.
... I don't even want to know how cancer Draven used to be. xD
ADC Is Trash1 votesSo... is your issue with Pantheon is it with Lucian? In lanning, he E's before he Q's to combo level 2... walk away when he E's and he lost half his combo. If you're saying Lucian is busted just by champion design, then I don't think you understand that Lucian is completely unique, there isn't another marksman that can bully like Lucian and then not snowball 10000 times harder than anyone else. You have to be playing poor matchups because I don't see how anyone can make a conclusion like that just because a champion has a level 2 power spike.
Niyumi1 votesHe's like Pantheon in that he cannot lose lane if he's at all competent. He just wins. No other ADC can fight him early game.
ADC Is Trash1 votesUh, because he has a level 2 power spike and he is a lane bully. He is overloaded in mid and late game, but he is strongest early game. You don't seem to understand that that is specifically when Lucian is strong. No other adc should be able to fight him that early.
Niyumi1 votesOkay, so he dominates early game with his bullshit base damage and his passive, and then dominates mid and late game because of the new BORK and his passive... and that's alright?
Rene is an early game lane bully. So is Jayce. But, the thing is, if they play badly, they can lose. Lucian does not have a scenario where he loses, because he out-damages every ADC that isn't Draven before and after his BORK. The only way to actually beat him is to CC lock him. Even juggernauts lose to a Lucian when they're in range to hit him, when that's supposed to be their win condition.
ADC Is Trash1 votesI don't think you are listening. Bork is bs on Lucian. But may I remind you, Lucian was no were close to being meta before they buffed him and reworked bork. I would also like to add, that the balance team's job, is not to make everything even and happy. There is a meta every season. Some have champions stronger than others. Lucian doesn't have a top 5 play rate, he has an average win rate.
What you have been saying, is that Lucian himself is broken, not anything about bork, or the other stages of the game. Lucian is literally useless post 45 minutes. If you don't agree, ban him. Same with Draven. We already told you bork and Lucian have an overpowered interaction. But nerfing the base stats on Lucian can be risky because it can push him out of the meta entirely. Think Season 6
S6 was the marksmen meta, and Lucian was literal ass. He sucked. Urgot was more viable. No shit. Lucian needs adjustments to make him stronger, he was worse than some of the champions that need reworks really bad. Lucian isn't broken, this is the most balanced he has been in a while.
If you seriously have this big of an issue with Lucian, then you are not playing the right supports. Lucian is one of the top ten most mechanically difficult marksmen you can play. (imo). You are in gold, you should expect the Lucian to be good and be pushed to his limits.
If you can't see that Lucian has power spikes and the ways to counter them. Then you are just as ignorant as your argument.
Inting Pillow1 votesLucian isn't broken
TóxicoChicoGuapo1 votesLucian nerfs hit him decently hard. the champion was trash tier before the bork rework. and the bork rework made him op with it. then they gut him even further either forcing him into a crit build now with reaver (which sucks) or just going OOM way more often. his Q has a 90 mana cost at max rank and you max it first obviously. so that means you are basically using what is damn close to an ultimate as your primary damaging spell that you spam in lane.
I think he's fine. as long as he's forced to build crit now he's balanced. and if you go bork you aren't going to be as oppressive as you were despite your damage being the same. you just can't spam with the bork build which limits your windows to go aggressive. his win rate dropped like 4% I believe this patch. he's fine now.
draven just was a bad idea on the changes to shift him away from skilled players and more accessible to casual players. I think he was fine as a niche champion that required hundreds of games to master. would rather them shift him back to having the beast late game and not so dominant early. i mean he was always dominant in lane and hard to deal with, then they just buffed that even further??
Niyumi1 votesI'm not saying they need to gut Lucian, just saying they need to hit his early game a bit so that other ADCs can at least compete with him. As it is, he's a free lane without jungler intervention, and that shouldn't be a thing.
As for Draven... I hate the champ. My first time seeing him, way back in S5, I was playing Nid jungle. I was VERY fed, and could one combo just about anyone. I threw a spear at Draven, landed it at max range (he had very little health), so I jump at him from out of the jungle, he turns and autos me... and I die before I even land on him (Literally one auto killed me from full health, and I build a ROA on Nid). And he is still that same bullshit champ I saw way back then -- even worse now.
TóxicoChicoGuapo1 votesNo adc by default wins lane without intervention besides Caitlyn.
Lucian has 500 range, and if he dashes in you just turn on him and trade back. If he trades at a good time then he should be rewarded for winning that trade. If he dashes in just when you get in range and you have your spells up? He will likely lose that trade even if it seems he is winning it at first because burst.
Against Lucian early don't get scared when chunks you hard. early on he's got nothing for a fair amount of time after he chunks you. Chunk him back and then hit him as he tries to leave range. With 500 range Lucian can and should always get hit at least one more time than you.
Without dashing in Lucian also has a hard time forcing anything due focus his short range. So he relies on his support to make plays or waits for perfect trade opportunities. He's a lane bully for sure as Q can go through minions, but he's not so Oppressive he auto wins.
Caitlyn is the only adc right now you can pick and if played properly auto win the lane. She either outright out ranges so heavily they can't do anything or if they are similar range (Ashe) she just pushes them in all day and harasses under tower.
Niyumi1 votesQ has a much longer range than his autos, and does the majority of his early damage.
His passive breaks his autos, and makes them continue firing even if he moves out of range, so he just starts his auto and walks away to trade.
His mobility means he cannot be ganked easily, cannot be CCd easily, and can chase anyone with ease.
A competent Lucian CANNOT lose lane.
TóxicoChicoGuapo1 votesand a competent lucian cannot beat a competent caitlyn guaranteed either. its 100% a skill matchup. lucian also goes even with a competent draven.
try again though.
DunkinNoobs1 votesLucian isn't even that good anymore. He loses lane to both Cait and Draven while also getting outscaled by them.
Bonvivius1 voteswell tbh THEY ARE FKING LANE BULLIES. You are in silver and these champs are made to stomp that elo all the way to plat.