Nerf Vayne? or buff ADCs in general?

xxxMadLionxxx·Sep 10, 2015·6 votes·1,462 views

Hey all

Everyone wants Vayne head on a platter. However, her kit has been untouched since like forever. So what is the real problem?

1- Is she just really good in the tank meta and other ADCs can't really do anything? 2- Does she really have a weak early game? Are ADCs Like Lucian unable to keep her in check? 3- Is her kit simply overloaded? The only thing she seems to be lacking is poke and has insane self peel.

I don't want to see a good champ gutted like Lucian was.

What makes Vayne so much better than other ADCs and if we can find it, should we add some of it to other ADCs or just nerf Vayne?

33 Comments

SEKAISep 10, 20156 votes

Nerf Vayne? or buff ADCs in general?

Ofc not the latter, I shudder at the thought of ADCs overpowering everything and anything like back then, even if it only happened for a short while.

disregardableSep 10, 20151 votes

You could probably give every ADC a 60% AS boost at all points in the game and they'd be just as bad.

SEKAISep 10, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=Very Toxic Jinx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBWTfAuz,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-09-10T14:07:39.720+0000)

You could probably give every ADC a 60% AS boost at all points in the game and they'd be just as bad.

I don't personally think ADCs are having it rough, even if they are, it isn't as bad as some people are making it out to be.

Most of the QQs seem to be coming from ADCs who frequently go toe to toe against tanks/bruisers while thinking they have 0 chance to lose.

disregardableSep 10, 20151 votes

You also don't main ADC and know nothing about their balance. Have you seen the carry co-effcient chart? This guy on reddit did a statistical analysis of all champions in the game for the 5.16-5.17 patches.

"The carry coefficient is a measure of how well a role or champion can win the game if they have a gold lead at 10 minutes, assuming the rest of their team goes even"

If you take a look at this chart he provided, the first (bot lane) ADC on the list is rated 107th. Out of 126. Statistically speaking, Vayne and Kalista have about the same chance of carrying a game as Rammus and Olaf. Really. That's how bad this game is for ADCs right now.

http://i.imgur.com/Pg0c2s9.png

RebonackSep 10, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Very Toxic Jinx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBWTfAuz,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-10T14:39:38.134+0000)

You also don't main ADC and know nothing about their balance. Have you seen the carry co-effcient chart? This guy on reddit did a statistical analysis of all champions in the game for the 5.16-5.17 patches.

If you take a look at this chart he provided, the first (bot lane) ADC on the list is rated 107th. Out of 126. Statistically speaking, Vayne and Kalista have about the same chance of carrying a game as Rammus and Olaf. Really. That's how bad this game is for ADCs right now.

http://i.imgur.com/Pg0c2s9.png

Bet someone replies with something along the lines of:

'Well, that's what you say, but my anecdotal evidence is WAY more valid.'

Truth of the matter is, Rangers are in every game because they're needed for objective control. If there were an AP/IAS item that drastically increased Mage's auto-attack damage (on towers and Baron in particular) then Rangers wouldn't be required at all.

Crowe StalkerSep 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Truth of the matter is, Rangers are in every game because they're needed for objective control. If there were an AP/IAS item that drastically increased Mage's auto-attack damage (on towers and Baron in particular) then Rangers wouldn't be required at all.

And what game refers to Marksman as 'Rangers' ?

RebonackSep 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

And what game refers to Marksman as 'Rangers' ?

No game, just me.

Tanks, Juggernauts, Fighters, Strikers. Supports, Blasters, Whatever the hell you want to call Mage/Assassins, Bruisesrs. Assassins and Skirmishers. And Rangers all by themselves.

Poor, lonely Rangers.

DrNovaSep 10, 20151 votes

Rangers sounds cool.

We can call juggernaughts "ass blasters"

agbudarSep 10, 20151 votes

sooooooo

let me get this straight....

now that other champions have the same change at winning the game with a gold lead the game is unbalanced?

do you know how utterly conflicting that statement is?

what i hear from you is this bla bla bla game is balanced better then any time before but i can't get used to it becuz i used to get free wins after i got 3 kills on botlane.

disregardableSep 10, 20151 votes

now that other champions have greater chance at winning the game with a gold lead the game is unbalanced

corrected that for you.

SEKAISep 10, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Very Toxic Jinx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBWTfAuz,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-10T14:39:38.134+0000)

You also don't main ADC and know nothing about their balance. Have you seen the carry co-effcient chart? This guy on reddit did a statistical analysis of all champions in the game for the 5.16-5.17 patches.

If you take a look at this chart he provided, the first (bot lane) ADC on the list is rated 107th. Out of 126. Statistically speaking, Vayne and Kalista have about the same chance of carrying a game as Rammus and Olaf. Really. That's how bad this game is for ADCs right now.

http://i.imgur.com/Pg0c2s9.png

While I am definitely not the master at statistics, I did notice something that the mathematician might perhaps forgot to include:

The pick rates.

Unless I missed something from my skim reading (which is entirely possible), I don't think pick rates were actually part of the calculation as it seems to be more of a study on averages.

When there are not that many ADCs in the first place, and they have to be in every single game, I am pretty sure a lower carry coefficient is a given and does not necessarily mean they are very underpowered.

Less seen champs are more likely to carry more because they have less games to carry, thus each game weighs more and so they would mostly end up either in the shiet zone or somewhere up there (in terms of carry coefficient ofc). I think it works like that.

If anything I only see supports to be disgustingly weak from that analysis but it's just me.

**EDIT: **Not to mention he seems to have selected his evidences in such a way that all non-meta games were completely disregarded, games were taken from solo queue where ADCs are meant to be less effective and matches were only recorded from NA which is not a good representation of the actual game as there are many other regions too. Let's just say it wasn't a good start. I can say he went in already with a confirmation bias but I guess I wouldn't accuse him of such a thing.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbSep 10, 20151 votes

Can't say I main ADC, but I can say I've build 5 items of armor and health and ADCs usually still eat me, whether they're vayne or not. He points out that junglers pay a lot of attention to bot. This would cause a 10 minute gold lead to require much more consistent play on the part of the bot laners. Whereas an ignored lane will often continue to feed, roams from mid and jungle to bot lane can often intervene, which would lessen the impact of them being fed.

He also points out that ADC scales just as well as mid for damage. It's definitely the case that juggernauts, who naturally counter most ADCs are strong. They will be nerfed because they're clearly too strong. ADCs will then be left with little to counter them. Here's the thing: ADC isn't a solo act. You're supposed to rely on your team to enable you to deal damage. That's why you have a fucking babysitter all game whose only job aside from warding is to keep your ass alive. Clearly, ADC is still the most important role, and is therefore, the most focused, and most dived role.

ADCs don't build defense, so if they're caught, they die. They're required to stay alive in fights to deal their damage but the payoff is massive. ADCs are also supposed to have a weak early game, which would indicate that a gold lead at 10 minutes shouldn't necessarily let them carry the game, and yet all too often, a game is carried because an ADC got fed in lane and the enemy team has just enough peel to allow them to kill everyone. ADCs still feel very strong when not in the presence of the new juggernauts, and when they get nerfed, ADCs will against be uncontested.

You're not entitled to being the best and most important role all the time. Your team isn't just 4 people who are there to keep you alive and soften up targets for you.

KONO RUBICK DASep 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Ofc not the latter, I shudder at the thought of ADCs overpowering everything and anything like back then, even if it only happened for a short while.

they want the game to be still dicated by ADC. League isn't allowed to be played without adc

BattleOxeSep 10, 20153 votes

I would say, nerf her passive. Or atleast MS bonus on ult. Because, once she starts winning, there's no way to stop her. Every lost teamfight is an ace for enemy. And maybe a little bit longer cooldown on Q.

Maximum MordeSep 10, 20153 votes

I generally prefer to nerf one op rather than buff a bunch of different champs. Easier to balance that way.

MLDzXnRRRSep 10, 20152 votes

BORK is op, also crits + IE.

xxxMadLionxxxSep 10, 20151 votes

What do you mean? What do you think makes Vayne strong? Should other ADC's get buffed to compete?

MLDzXnRRRSep 10, 20152 votes

{quoted}

What do you mean? What do you think makes Vayne strong? Should other ADC's get buffed to compete?

Vayne wasn't getting the old BT, PD got buffed, IE changed, BORK - buffed for autoattackers, Cait and Lucian went from tier one to just decent etc. I also think that Infinity Edge and crits are quite toxic - ADCs complain about Rengars who is 1shotting them and when we look what Rengar buys - almost the same items that they do...

xxxMadLionxxxSep 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Vayne wasn't getting the old BT, PD got buffed, IE changed, BORK - buffed for autoattackers, Cait and Lucian went from tier one to just decent etc. I also think that Infinity Edge and crits are quite toxic - ADCs complain about Rengars who is 1shotting them and when we look what Rengar buys - almost the same items that they do...

That's a good point. Item changes may also be the cause

ZmuecatSep 10, 20152 votes

Rework ADC itemization. It's stale and almost always them same on every champion.

Nerf Vayne with small, meaningful nerfs, buff other ADCs with small buffs (the role will just adopt a new favorite champion).

Rebalance after item changes.

Old Man TeetoSep 10, 20152 votes

Hoping for a major ADC itemization rework in the next season.

Like a MAJOR one not the shoddy one they did last time that made BT a pretty horrible rush for ADC's who wanted raw AD to boost their abilities for the early/mid-game.

MatezoideSep 10, 20152 votes

Reverting the recent BORK buff would be a good start.

LaceUp23Sep 10, 20151 votes

Well, there wasn't anywhere near the bitching about Vayne before strong early game ADCs got nerfed. So I think you has the answer :D

xRalinxSep 10, 20151 votes

I think that everyone who ADC's just tries to rush item 1038 when in reality they don't build for the champ but just try to pump up their damage. A champ like Ashe ever since her 5 hit Q work much better with item 3153 and item 3085 for a massive peel to squishys and massive damage to tanks since with her Q Procs 5 times for percent damage.

Crowe StalkerSep 10, 20151 votes

Change Vayne's Tumblr to a flat 5 second cooldown but invisibility from Final Hour lasts for 2 seconds. Frankly, she can use her Stealth more than Khazix can use Void Assault and when that adds an Auto Reset and AD Scaling Bonus that's just flat out retarded. Remove the damage bonus to her ultimate she already has great damage she doesn't need an almost item 3072 worth of extra damage, remove the flat damage from her Silver Bolts and change it from Percent Max Health True Damage to Percent Bonus Health True Damage to once again focus her as a Tank Buster. There, fixed.

agbudarSep 10, 20151 votes

you won't ever see her again after those changes.

they simply gotta revert the tumble buffs they gave her a few patches back

Crowe StalkerSep 10, 20151 votes

That's not going to fix her insane squishy/tank bursting problems or any of the reasons she's top pick. Those are, at best, fringe cases.

Perhaps Tumble is a 4 second cooldown, give her a buff on her damage per level to make up for the Final Hour damage reduction, but the flat True Damage on her Silver Bolts needs to go and the base damage be converted to Percent Bonus Health True Damage.

AhurathSep 10, 20151 votes

There is not a tank meta atm there's alot of bruisers and assasains that are coming up.
No she used to have a weak early game since the other lane bullies like Lucian, Graves, Corki, Kalista had a insane early game and then she got shutdown easily. But you can still bully her but you have to do it before she gets a vamp scepter after that it's very hard since she has alot of sustain.
She still is weak to AoE damage, but that goes for every short range adc so that's not really specific to only her.
What made Vayne rise is that every other lane bully that kept her in check got nerfed and now she has a easier time pasing thorugh the laning phase, so she kinda won by default like Sivir did.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbSep 10, 20151 votes

ADCs are already plenty strong. It's perfectly ok that they have trouble 1v5ing.

LuggSep 10, 20151 votes

I think if you buffed the lower tier ADCs, everything would shake out fine. Graves Q nerf definitely needs to be reverted for starters.

LovelleSep 10, 20151 votes

I say nerf Vayne and Botrk. Give her the Cinderhulk jungler treatment.

IcyPepperSep 10, 20151 votes

I don't really think it's much of a tank meta anymore, nor has it been for awhile.

Dunkrius2gSep 11, 20151 votes

4 possible ways to nerf her.

Make her attack speed scaling from 4% -> 3%.
Reduce health scaling from 83 -> 80. #clean#s
Now if you want to straight up nerf her, then make her W at lv 5 like this: **50 (12% current health) per 3 procs. **

10 (4% C.H.) / 20 (6% C.H.) / 30 (8% C.H.) / 40 (10% C.H.) / 50 (12% C.H.)