Let me explain why Shen's update is a failure.

Dreadlocks··10 votes·1,601 views

At first i was excited, but the more and more i played Shen on PBE, and the more and more i thought about his new spells vs his old, the more i realized how hard he is being gimped. Allow me to explain.

All of Shen's abilties on live are currently still in Shens kit on PBE, just in different spots. For example: Shens E taunt live currently makes auto attacks deal 50% less damage. This got removed and shifted to his W which is now an AoE Dodge for you and your teammates for 1.75 seconds. Which situationally works on teammates (rarely) but more so benefits Shen support...

His live W, gives him a 220HP (+60%ap) shield for 3 seconds, on a 9 second CD that scales to 5. This abiltiy has been shifted to his passive, for a 52-120HP (14% bonus hp) shield that lasts 2.5 seconds, on a 10 second CD, which is then reduced by 4-7.5 seconds if a spell hits an enemy champion.

His R is pretty much the same, just a lil shorter CD @ rank 2, his E same, but 2 second longer CD, and however lower base damage but scales with HP, and does phys dmg. E and R changes...Not bad, don't really change much for Shen.

Here is the problem.. you have all these changes that i've listed, that arn't really "changes" they are just shifting his power into different spells with slightly different mechanics.

Basically what you are left with is a net-loss. You lose your sustain, your range poke, your damage on Q, which is now shifted into 3 auto attacks. And you lose your Ki-Strike damage passive.

I thought updates were suppose to make a champion feel better, I really liked Ashe's update, she feels the same, easier to play tbh, and does the same shit. She didn't lose damage, her slowing mechanic is actually enhanced, and with Shen, they literally kept E and R the same for the most part, and destroyed everything else. NO-ONE LIKES THIS AOE DODGE SHIT ANYWAYS.

TLDR: You are left with essentially the same Shen you have on Live, without Q.

39 Comments

Zarkkast6 votes

Shen is absolutely the most boring lane ever. Playing against a decent Shen is the absolute most miserable experience in toplane. Not because you get stomped, but because nothing happens during the lane phase, ever. Unless either junglers camp the shit out of the lane and/or if you can afford to dive him.

This will make him a much more interesting champion overall.

Also, you are wrong about Ki Strike. Its power was shifted from his passive to his Q.

A lategame Shen with 4000 Health would do 476 damage on Ki Strike.

The new Shen, will do roughly the same damage if he manages to hit his spirit blade and the target has little over 2000 health. Also, against a target with the same health as him he will do over 800 damage with his Q and 3 autos.

Also, he now gets a lot more damage on his E (unless you played AP Shen) because it scales of his max HP, so his overall damage did not suffer.

Shen is now more of a bruiser than a pure utility tank. But the only real difference is that he can no longer AFK farm from a distance making toplane a snooze fest.

Edit: I'd like to say that I do like playing with Shen and that Vorpal Blade is an awesome ability in his kit. But when you're playing against a Shen it feels almost toxic, just like Vladimir. The difference is Vladimir is not a tank, so Shen gets the same boring lane on top of extreme safety.

Dreadlocks4 votes

Boring? Miserable? Nothing Happens? This is Shen not Nasus. I find my match ups to be pretty entertaining to say the least. Sure my lanes arn't decided by who can all in at lvls 2-4 the best, but at least i'm not dying every time i get into fucking melee range of someone "cough riven"

Sure say his power from ki-strike was shifted to his Q idgaf, he's still short the damage he had on Q then!!

You can do all these %maxhp maths all u want, its all magic damage, and its all reduced by MR.

His E change to scale with HP is probably the only damn thing they actually buffed in his kit, everything else is equal or less.

And how can you say shen is a bruiser more than a pure tank? Do you not realize how many "bruisers" or "juggernauts" have some kind of freaking healing mechanic in their kit? If you arn't aware, let me show you some: LeeSin WTrundle WRenekton QIrelia WIllaoi QDarius QNocturne PassiveUdyr WAatrox WHecarim WGaren PassiveGangplank WOlaf WRengar WVolibear PassiveDrMundo Ult All of these champs are fighters and what do they all have in common, a healing mechanic.. Show me where Shens is, because last i checked they fucking removed it.

Zarkkast2 votes

His Ki Strike and Vorpal Blade were also magic damage, so itemizing MR against him won't be any different than it was before.

Also I do not agree on defining bruiser as having self-sustain (and definitely do not agree on classifying Nocturne, Rengar and Gangplank as bruisers).

There are bruisers that do not have in-built sustain, like Shyvanna and Jax. Maybe a new core (or maybe situational) item on Shen will be BotRK, it seems like it would synergize extremely well with his Q.

For me a bruiser is someone that builds tanky and still deals plenty of damage, whilst a pure tank would be the likes of Taric, Leona, Braum and Alistar.

I say Shen feels more like a bruiser now because his Q requires him to all-in and auto attack to do damage, as opposed to before where he could safely poke his enemy from a distance. I haven't played him yet, obviously, but from reading his kit it feels like he's a tankier Jax/Irelia/Shyvanna now.

Edit: And I stand by saying his lane is the most boring experience when you're playing against him, more so than Nasus.

Dreadlocks2 votes

I apologize as I didn't know u havnt had experience with it yet. I think given what you said, I can respect that idea of having damage while still building tanky, however this is not the case which is why I'm upset. His damage isn't any better than it was and definitely feels weaker and 100% has less "burst" the reason it's hard to give shen damage is because his aoe taunt is so strong.. so it's hard to put him at a comparable level with sm1 like shyvana who has no CC. I'd be okay with shen losing dmg, but not lose his sustain too! Or visa versa. .. my point is he is losing more than he gains. And I want none of this he's a better support bullshit...I want him viable top.

Catastrop2 votes

{quoted}

Shen is absolutely the most boring lane ever.

You've clearly played against the wrong Shen's. It's universally accepted that you farm and bully the enemy laner until they start to tilt when you play Shen. He's like the Shaco of top lane, except he doesn't need a lead. Sadly, this might change a lot.

ACENOX6 votes

first i'm disappointed that his dodge only last 1.75 sec when windwall and braum's E last like 4 seconds

care to give me the cooldown of his Q?

Zarkkast1 votes

8 / 7.25 / 6.5 / 5.75 / 5

Changed from 6 / 5.5 / 5 / 4.5 / 4

ACENOX1 votes

{quoted}

8 / 7.25 / 6.5 / 5.75 / 5

Changed from 6 / 5.5 / 5 / 4.5 / 4

fine then, the cooldown with some cdr will be low giving shen an attack speed buff and a lot of %hp damage, i have an other question how do throw your sword to get it back for the attack speed? are you forced to use your W?

Zarkkast1 votes

I haven't played him, don't have a PBE account.

I honestly have no idea how his spirit blade functions as of now. It seems like you can move it by using W, not sure if there's any other way to move it though. Also not sure where it will respawn after it is used.

Ahristocats1 votes

{quoted}

I haven't played him, don't have a PBE account.

I honestly have no idea how his spirit blade functions as of now. It seems like you can move it by using W, not sure if there's any other way to move it though. Also not sure where it will respawn after it is used.

if that's so, this is a fucking terrible rework

why would you use your long cooldown peeling spell (also important since it's 100% dodge) to position it and gain attack speed?

J Eevo3 votes

Ignore the visuals and think of the Sword as just a Marker it'll be easier. W just triggers the Dodge, you need to use Q to reposition it which basically makes it float from it's current position to the position DIRECTLY UNDER YOU(so no throwing it anywhere), you want it to move through an enemy, you have to Q once, move through the enemy yourself then Q the second time which will move it through them (but it doesn't deal damage by itself)

Zarkkast1 votes

Ah, I see. Thanks for explaining!

Then what's the max range of his passive? What happens if he gets too far from the sword? Is it just like Orianna?

J Eevo2 votes

It has a leashing mechanic where it's basically dragged along so that it never stays too far from him (so if you go from the base to the first top turret, it'll start following you after a while and will stop near the second turret). It doesn't act like Orianna ball leashing which teleports directly to ori, it always stays further back, unless recalled with Q.

The maximum efficiency combo is using E to dash through, and behind someone, then use the Q while the target is taunted so it'll cross paths with them which empowers your AA more than a regular Q and applies a weird version of a slow - if someone gets "cut" with the sword while it flies through the air, they get slowed when they move AWAY from shen, so it doesn't help if Shen's the one escaping, it does help with chasing though.

Dreadlocks1 votes

U get attack speed if ur Q passess through an enemy champion. W has no effect on the attack speed, nor can u reposition ur sword with it.

Catastrop4 votes

1.75 seconds is definitely underwhelming. It should have just been 2 seconds, at least that would feel good.

Best princess EU1 votes

{quoted}

1.75 seconds is definitely underwhelming. It should have just been 2 seconds, at least that would feel good.

"windwall 4 seconds so shen's W should be 1.75 sec"-riot

Judge Arcadia1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sanji fanboy,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=j9HIe4kG,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2016-01-14T15:20:28.673+0000)

"windwall 4 seconds so shen's W should be 1.75 sec"-riot

To be fair you can go around the wall, you can't force them out of the circle without a pull or what not.

Ahristocats1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Judge Arcadia,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=j9HIe4kG,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2016-01-14T15:28:11.651+0000)

To be fair you can go around the wall, you can't force them out of the circle without a pull or what not.

so what's the problem? cause yasuo can also go around the wall the wall block everything from every side, and by hearing you it seems that it isn't a problem for an adc to come in the melee of the fight.

Judge Arcadia1 votes

[{quoted}](name=playfive Koopska,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=j9HIe4kG,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-14T15:41:06.276+0000)

so what's the problem? cause yasuo can also go around the wall the wall block everything from every side, and by hearing you it seems that it isn't a problem for an adc to come in the melee of the fight.

I'm not sure I follow what you are asking. Are you saying Yasuo could kite around his wall? True he could but keep in mind that he is now running the risk of getting out of position. I was merely saying only a hard displacement spell could literally take someone out of Shen Dodge circle.

TheDevice2 votes

I'll be honest it looks like a ninja with an anchor.

I dont really understand that concept too much. It feels like hes not only now a tanky bruiser support but sorta this oriana or even heimer-type of champ where his strengths lie in being less mobile.

This is ofc coming from a person whos not played him yet though. So idk..

GreenLore2 votes

champion updates are also there to make champs more unique and interactive and that applies to Shen now as well. He can now create dodge zones to protect his allies and has this spirit-blade stuff.

You mostly seem to complain about the numbers of his kit,but those can easily be adjusted if he turns out to be too weak.

Dreadlocks2 votes

It's not just numbers.. he lost sustain.. which is something top laners have.. everyone is all on this "interactive hype train" when all they really did was gut top lane shen, and shoved him into a support position.

Judge Arcadia3 votes

{quoted}

It's not just numbers.. he lost sustain.. which is something top laners have.. everyone is all on this "interactive hype train" when all they really did was gut top lane shen, and shoved him into a support position.

Is this REALLY your main issue? Look at all the common Top Laners who don't have sustain.

Riven seems to do a fine job with just a shield, Shen will be no different.

Dreadlocks2 votes

Are u really going to put shen on the same level as riven just because they both have shields LOOOL

Judge Arcadia3 votes

{quoted}

Are u really going to put shen on the same level as riven just because they both have shields LOOOL

Only in the sense of sustain, which seems to be you only problem. She has ways to mitigate it, so does Shen. In fact he has two ways now, three if we count his Taunt still.

Dreadlocks2 votes

Yeah and riven does a fuck load more damage than shen, nice try though lol.

Judge Arcadia3 votes

{quoted}

Yeah and riven does a fuck load more damage than shen, nice try though lol.

Different roles, but same theory. Let's be real here, any and all damage done to live Shen doesn't stick. Period. Any and all damage to Riven does stick. Now even if you beat Shen in lane he won't leave, why? Because he turns it into a passive lane where nothing will happen.

As it stand he is just immovable as Nasus is. At least Nasus will run out of mana if he gets a little spam happy with his E.

Dreadlocks2 votes

Clearly u don't like shen, so we arnt going to see eye to eye here. Shen losing sustain is only a big problem because he isn't compensated for it in anyway. He doesn't become a better fighter, he doesn't become harder to kill, doesn't deal more damage, at the end of the day, he trades all his early dueling potential safety in lane and sustain for a supporty W dodge spell.

Judge Arcadia3 votes

{quoted}

Clearly u don't like shen, so we arnt going to see eye to eye here. Shen losing sustain is only a big problem because he isn't compensated for it in anyway. He doesn't become a better fighter, he doesn't become harder to kill, doesn't deal more damage, at the end of the day, he trades all his early dueling potential safety in lane and sustain for a supporty W dodge spell.

How is a shield and a dodge mechanic not compensating it? How does that not make him harder to kill? Literally that's exactly what it does. You've lost me with your logic.

He trades sustain for straight up mechanics to help him avoid damage altogether. That is a straight up net gain. And I really hate using this but, it will separate the good Shen's, from the great Shen's.

Dreadlocks2 votes

How does it compensate for TOP shen? It doesn't, I'll take 50% reduced dmg with my shield and healing mechanic on Q plus my bonus dmg on passive over a Dodge mechanic that makes my passive shield useless in 1v1 trades after I taunt. You must be blinded by this VU to think his dueling and trading potential in the top lane have improved, he's literally been Shafted as a top laner. He doesn't get better at 1v1s in lane, nor does he break even. These new mechanics sound op but they arnt. They don't make up for the amount of sustain and trading potential early that shen loses by any means.

Judge Arcadia1 votes

{quoted}

How does it compensate for TOP shen? It doesn't, I'll take 50% reduced dmg with my shield and healing mechanic on Q plus my bonus dmg on passive over a Dodge mechanic that makes my passive shield useless in 1v1 trades after I taunt.

But it does, it's almost like top Laners don't use auto attacks on a regular base. Especially the FOTM ones. But how does his new W nullify his Shield? It literally only helps it. Boom you go in, taunting or what have you, you dodge around for 1.75 seconds, and afterwards your shield is now being put to use. Congrats you have have successfully won a trade and negate most of it simply because of how his kit flows together now.

You must be blinded by this VU to think his dueling and trading potential in the top lane have improved, he's literally been Shafted as a top laner. He doesn't get better at 1v1s in lane, nor does he break even. These new mechanics sound op but they aren't.

Good then the mechanics are balanced as they should be. Never said that they would be OP. Granted agaisnt certain match up its going to really hurt his opponent. (Darius, Jax, Tyrnd, Irelia, etc)

They don't make up for the amount of sustain and trading potential early that shen loses by any means.

Correct, they don't. He's trading that in for outright ingoring damage altogether. But it's as it should be. He is effectively a resourcless champion. Being such a thing, he shouldn't have access to everything. And before you say Vlad does this, different champions, different roles. Vlad is damage who WILL melt if focused, Shen is a tank who wants to be focused.

Rurouni Lang1 votes

Immovable but ultimately less valuable as game scales. Nasus has infinite stack ability on Q so he gains something from staying in lane. Plus nasus has passive life steal lol.

GreenLore2 votes

Its about toplaners without sustain Malphite MonkeyKing Sion Pantheon Teemo have no means of getting their health back(unless sion is dead already,but I wouldn't count that),yet they don't have much of a problem in top. What they have is ways to reduce or outright prevent damage(malphites passive,teemos blind,etc.) and Shen has that too with his passive.

Rurouni Lang1 votes

But they have way more movement, way more cc, and way more damage and engage. They gimped top shen. And I don't even like top shen to begin with. But now, it seems impossible unless they give him a huge damage spike.

GreenLore2 votes

Right now top shen has a winrate of 51,87%,which is a solid winrate,especially since the people still have to grow used to his new kit(and is more than top-teemo for example)

Rurouni Lang1 votes

The reason Riven doesn't inherently need sustain is the sheer burst damage, stun, dash, and movement ability. Shen has crap movement speed and one dash/taunt. not equivalent, especially with Riven's Ult.

WiegrafOfValor2 votes

Agreed, plus most of ppl will be playing him full AP, since you can deal 45%~60% target's max HP with 3 AA in less than 3 seconds..

fraggleroc2 votes

Most Shen mains will know to drop him... he's bad at everything now.

Tahm Kench is a better top/support right now than Shen in every way - 2 ranged abilities, semi-global presence, ability to save teammates etc. Only thing Shen has over Tahm is W ability affects an area (tiny area that is)... Tahm has a tougher shield that is arguably better in soloQ. Maybe LCS may see some Shen play. If u're SoloQing, just play Tahm if he's not banned.

Change I would make is- Make W area a little larger. Then there may be a point in picking him.

TheDevice1 votes

On the other hand... in reply to my own comment. This actually can be cool.

We all look at ninjas the same way but I recall a very cool movie called Shinobi (which was about ninja more or less) and the styles of each ninja were very different.

I guess if you look at it that way his new kit is kinda cool.

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