Reminder that a champ's playerbase giving up on them after trash rework isn't the same as liking it.

TheUltimateSpear·Jul 9, 2015·4 votes·677 views

You've been reminded.

Edit: Post's been dramatically cut down, in case Halp's reply is confusing. :P

13 Comments

ChargeItDownMidJul 9, 20152 votes

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TheUltimateSpearJul 9, 20151 votes

Cass has more play because she (or at least was) OP, not because she's fun. That does not say much. Sure, the reception is fine now, but that's because Cass has a lot more new fans. Her old ones were NOT happy. Again, not saying new fans are bad, but that is not mostly positive reception.

I can't speak for Veigar, but I thought he was an okay niche pick before his rework, and still the case after.

But Cassiopeia was in a terrible state because her kit was clunky, not because it was bad. If anything her new kit is has worse design because of the snowballing passive, ball of stats. Not to mention she's really, REALLY binary now because all of her kit is in her E. What I mean is that if she gets behind, she's no fallback pattern and it fucking sucks. If she gets ahead, she steamrolls and that's not fun to be against.

And honestly, she just... FEELS binary, you know? Like, there's a point where she just gets "switched on." It's not a natural powercurve.

And their kits PLAY very differently now, sure. But the abilities themselves are the same. There was no broken design on either of them (at least that got removed.) And Cass's new, snowballing passive and having all her kit's power in her E is a broken design. Or at least, a MORE broken design.

ChargeItDownMidJul 9, 20152 votes

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TheUltimateSpearJul 9, 20151 votes

As for her E and Q... well, let's look at it this way.

You say Q is generic poke spell.

I say E is a generic nuke. But really, her E was given a lot of stuff packed into it in the rework.

Subjective.

Cassiopeia has a unique role?

DPS mage: Ryze

Her poison fang pattern is nigh identical to Urgot

hyper scaling APC: Azir Ryze Veigar

Was she another AOE mage before? Sure, but if that's as specific as it gets 85% of mages could apply. However, Cassiopeia's poisons were unique to the character. I mean, sure, other characters had poisons, but not as core as she did.

Now, that's subjective I now. But even then, don't you think they could've pushed her passive more in that case? Allow her to diverge into different playstyles and builds, perhaps like Khazix ...

I know some people really like Cassiopeia's rework, and that's great. But some people don't, and honestly it's not fair to snuff one half. Hell, even if they're the minority, shouldn't Riot allow the option anyway? It'd allow for more options and diversity in a champ. And if something's good or at least POSSIBLY good, why not give it a shot, you know?

ChargeItDownMidJul 9, 20152 votes

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TheUltimateSpearJul 9, 20151 votes

Honestly, what do you think Cassiopeia was before? Not trying to be mean, just asking. (EDIT: What I mean is you could play her before the exact same way you play her now. And you could also play more poke-like, but you could keep the Twin Fang pattern if you liked it. I think Cassiopeia was a lane bully with lots of DPS, from both her poisons and her Twin Fang. And that's arguably unique, because all the other DPS mages have a strong lategame and weaker early game. Cassiopeia would be stronger as an INTENDED lane bully. But that's beside the point. The point is the reasons you like playing Cassi still existed before, but she also had the option of being a more poke based mage. And they took that 2nd option away for no reason.)

I meant niche rather than gameplay for Ryze and Azir. Sorry about that. :P

Fair enough, but that's because Cassiopeia's E gives her innate spellvamp and mana sustain and is 78% of her damage now.

Before rework Cassiopeia's passive was a stacking affect. If you continually spammed spells within 5 seconds, it would give you stacking mana cost reduction. It encouraged all her spells to be used together and they ALL were important to her kit. Now... her E is all that matters. Everything else just enables it. Little divergence her but the base on W is less than half what it was. (25/35/45/55/65) vs (10/15/20/25/30) now. Her Q scaling was knocked almost in half. (45% down from 80%) This is probably just my opinion, but it just feels bad to have 75% of a champ's kit be irrelevant.

If Cassiopeia's Q did 78% of her damage and had an innate Liandry's and bonuses on her passive, etc. would you really think the same thing? Maybe you would, but- what I mean is Cass's old kit had it's power spread much more evenly. Some people liked her poisons more than twin fang. Now most people like twin fang, but because twin fang got supercharged and her poisons got gutted, not because anything fundamentally changed in either of the abilities.

I don't know. I still hold that at least the option of evolving her poisons over her twin fang should be at least an option.

MrButtermancerJul 9, 20151 votes

Veigar is NOT neutral. I'm pretty sure there was a plat Veigar player who pretty much quit the game after the patch. There were numerous complaints from Veigar mains, myself included. There have been threads coming up often about Veigar changes/suggested reworks.

Here's just one Reddit thread with 1500 upvotes, and the word around the forums is that Reddit generally supports Riot's decisions.

http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2x6jw3/veigar_is_unplayable_after_nerfs_plat_veigar_main/

I can personally say after probably around 800 Veigar games that the patch was absolutely crippling for him at every level of play. Farming could theoretically be easier against a completely passive mid, but why would any mid play passively when attempting a trade is so massively in their favor? ANY kind of close wrecks him and he has no instant defenses or mobility. He's outclassed by basically any common pick mid.

He's miserable to play, because win or lose, what your opponent does matters more than what you do, and it's glaringly obvious.

I've read the match histories of some of the "he's more fun" people. The majority don't actually play Veigar regularly, and basically none take him to ranked. I'll probably get two or three special snowflakes replying that they do, but that's irrelevant. The generalization holds. 1.3% ish pick rate. This change was NOT "neutral."

ChargeItDownMidJul 9, 20152 votes

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MrButtermancerJul 9, 20151 votes

He was "miserable to play win or lose" exclusively bottom lane, where people were abusing his exclusively level-based power in Event Horizon's stun. It's fine on mid, but give that to a support with an ADC (and Veigar's mana passive) and stupid things happen. The problem wasn't mid, where counterplay was very possible against Veigar, but bottom, where he was obscenely strong in the support role with no items.

Riot actually needed to address his stun somehow that didn't break everything else he's supposed to be. They either needed to tie it to farm or gold so he could be powerful (but not at level 3 as a support), or straight-up weaken it early without making it crap late. The delay might have been reduced with levels. He might have gotten an instant stun with increased duration at AP farm marks (50, 100, 150, to a max). That didn't happen. They made it so you can walk across it. People were already blinking out of it because it DID have a casting time of about .25 seconds before the patch, it just didn't telegraph.

Now you fire and pray, or you actually have to rely on somebody else's CC so you can chain it. You can NOT initiate with it unless you outnumber the enemy, because a lot of champions will just kill Veigar from inside the ring after dodging the meteor.

It is now garbage at all levels in addition to his Q, which is it's own tragedy.

SasogwaJul 9, 20152 votes

The response to Veigar has been mostly negative by Veigar players and positive of people that didn't play Veigar and didn't like to play against Veigar.

TheUltimateSpearJul 9, 20153 votes

The response to Veigar has been mostly negative by Veigar players and positive of people that didn't play Veigar and didn't like to play against Veigar.

I suppose I agree.

This post pretty much sums what I feel. Now both champs have new fanbases and their old ones were, in essence, told "tough shit."

But for Cassiopeia her playstyle before was not problematic. If anything it feels WORSE to play against her now.

SasogwaJul 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I suppose I agree.

This post pretty much sums what I feel. Now both champs have new fanbases and their old ones were, in essence, told "tough shit."

But for Cassiopeia her playstyle before was not problematic. If anything it feels WORSE to play against her now.

Agreed, and it's a bit sad that they put all her damage into retarded E spam. I think she was maybe better before, by that I mean more healthy, and more particular (very poison oriented, less generic dps mage) Some guys did pretty well with old Cassiopeia (well the players I know I from EU so I can quote Sardoche for instance)