@Riot PLEASE read this! Revert Cassi, there's an easy tweak that would keep her gameplay healthy.

TheUltimateSpear··36 votes·1,977 views

The small tweaks I'm suggesting are:

  • Revert Cassiopeia's rework
  • Increase the cooldown of refreshed twin fangs from .5 seconds to 1 second.

And that's it. And she would be perfectly balanced. And this would take a single patch to do. Cassiopeia's rework was just a large heap of numbers, and I'm not saying that in a quality sense. (Although this applys in that sense too) I mean that literally the only thing Riot did was tweak her numbers. Cassiopeia's prework and post-rework abilities are identical in function, aside from her new passive.

Cassiopeia's old passive was called Deadly Cadence. Casting a spell would cause any subsequent spellcasts within 5 seconds to cost 10% less mana, stacking up to 5 times, and rings would circle around her as she stacked up the bonus. When Cassiopeia gains bonuses on her current passive, Aspect of the Serpent, snakes start circling around her. Riot could just use these snakes as the visual indicators for Cassi's old passive if they reverted her.

But, to those who don't know, a revert to Cassiopeia would look like this.

Current Cassiopeia: Q: 75/115/155/195/235 + 45% AP W: 10/15/20/25/30 + 10% AP Mana Cost: 40/50/60/70/80 mana E: 55/80/105/130/155 + 55% AP Mana Cost: 50/60/70/80/90 R: 150/250/350 + 50% AP

Old/Reverted Cassiopeia:

Q: 75/115/155/195/235 + 80% AP W: 25/35/45/55/65 + 15% AP Mana Cost: 80/90/100/110/120 E: 50/85/120/155/190 + 55% AP Mana Cost: 30/45/60/75/90 R: 200/325/400 + 60%

...And, aside from that, there are barely other mana cost/ cooldown changes, if there are at all, and those would be very negligible.

So, as you can see, the old Cassiopeia is significantly stronger than the current one, but considering how badly the current Cassiopeia is performing, I think that'd be okay.

A VERY IMPORTANT NOTE is that old Cassiopeia's E had a .5 second cooldown refresh as well, but it was on hit, not on cast like live. So, the cooldown wouldn't be refreshed until Twin Fang connected, instead of on command like now. I'm suggesting a 1.0 second cooldown refresh, ON CAST. This would make her E spam at about the same level as old Cassiopeia, which really was only at about half the speed of current Cassiopeia. Cassiopeia's main issue right now is that her laning is oppressive due to her twin fang spam, but hitting that, it gives her opponents more room to breathe, and more room to to buff the rest of Cassiopeia's kit, which was trashed in the rework.

What do you have to lose by giving this a chance, Riot? It's just number tweaks, so it wouldn't be very time consuming. And Cassiopeia has been performing very poorly as of preseason. She needs some buffs, and not saying my suggestion is perfect, but it's definitely worth a shot. You just need to give it a chance.

And I'm sorry, but saying Cassiopeia was problematic before is utter bullshit. The only changes you made to her pre-rework were BUFFS, so how was she problematic in season 3? And Season 4, where, after the 2 small buffs in season 3, Cassiopeia was not changed at ALL?

As a final note, I'd just like to say, if any Rioter has read this post, please comment on it. It would really be helpful to have some communication on this.

58 Comments

Prospector Pete14 votes

Yeah, it's funny how they reverted the Riven rework before it even hit live, yet they still refuse to revert the Cassiopeia rework that literally everyone hated.

SirHeavyScrotum9 votes

They explicitly said about the Riven changes that they were just trying something out, seeing how it tested on the PBE and that it might not make it to live. They then said after they reverted them that they learned a lot from it. Idk what the problem with that is...

yay nibbers5 votes

Something else to note is that Riven mains said it was kinda OP

Anyone good at canceling with Riven does a ton of extra damage and her ult does full damage to targets of all HP percentages rather than just those close to death. All it really did was make Riven harder to play and better for those who are already good at her.

If anything it's good that it didnt ship. Not that any of the "MUH FAVORITISM" idiots on the boards know anything about anything.

KaisadiIIa4 votes

Of course, Riven rework made her far more powerful. But why even bother to research a bit.

GeorgeKnightRT5 votes

Yeah, riot revert cassi to her former serpentine Yorick form, endless poke from q sustained by all that mana refund from passive was so healthy , seriously though, none liked to play against cassi before rework and not many people liked to play her at all, now it's only the people that don't know how to play her and have a false belief old Cass was a healthy champion that don't like playing her, as for the people that go up against her, Now they actually have many options to counterplay her.

Every guy that doesn't know or doesn't remember how cass was prerwork should try playing Yorick and then try to play against him.

Cosnirak2 votes

SO! MUCH! THIS!

TheUltimateSpear2 votes

Sure, Cassiopeia was a lane bully, but even so she was NOT as bad as Syndra or Ziggs were in Season 4, and they remained in their states for a long time before being nerfed. Cassiopeia's Q had a lot of damage, yes, but her W was situational and her E was situational too because it was clunky.

I guess a FULL revert would make her somewhat op due to her E and Ult no longer being clunky to use, but I think she could have most of her power from before the rework and be fine. Like, they could nerf her old passive's mana cost reduction early game, and shave off some ap scaling off her Q. But I think with some minor steps down old Cassiopeia will be PERFECTLY manageable.

People have plenty of counter play against the reworked Cassiopeia because the reworked Cassiopeia is bad. When she was in a decently powerful spot she was just as toxic as old Cassiopeia was.

New Cassiopeia has a playrate of 1.9% when old Cassiopeia had a playrate of 2-5%. Does that not mean MOST of her fans do not like the new her? Even considering the new players she gained from the rework? :/

GeorgeKnightRT1 votes

Ziggs is and was the definition of safely farming ap midlaner, his main poke spells don't have all that much of power and you can just dodge them as they have slow animations, as for syndra, yeah she's a high skill cap lane bully but unlike prerwork cassi she doesn't scale really well into lategame and she can't sustain her poke in a binary and unhealthy way old cassi could.

People have enough counterplay against new Cass because that's how riot likes to design champions, new cassi was toxic but in a different way old cassi was, old cassi was an oppresive lane bully that offered low interaction or counterplay to the opponent, they where times new cassi was unhealthy as well but that was mostly because she was played by people that could work around her weaknesses and just play her so much better.

Old cassi didn't have more than 2% for the most part of the season 4, I'm very sure there where times that playrate got below 1%.

Bladerunner77774 votes

You're doing it wrong

If you want to make a cassio thread you gotta have good fanart to go with it

The bar was set high

Solaxo4 votes

Riot admitting their mistake? Naive.

TheUltimateSpear2 votes

Sure am!

Cassiopeia

Mahou Lulu4 votes

I love this because the reworked Cass is horrible from every angle. However, might her pre-rework numbers be too strong given their great synergy with Deathfire Touch?

TheUltimateSpear1 votes

It's a possibility. She synergizes with Deathfire Touch pretty well, but she's not as crazy as Brand passive because her DOTs last less time than his, but she's also got two DOT abilities in her kit rather than Brand just has his passive.

OyddAWqJ5r3 votes

They should keep the Poison increase on Twin Fang though. That was probably the only good thing that came out of the rework. In compensation, nerf the fuck out of E. Noone likes it.

NineTailedMystic3 votes

235 + 80% AP over time with an amp? Dear god, please no.

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

Amp requires her to Twin Fang (get close). And Twin Fang would be nerfed in compensation.

So the problem is?

KaisadiIIa1 votes

That you are killing her Twin Fang playstyle by nerfing it. I think was most old Cass mains want is to have both the AoE poison playstyle and the E machine gun playstyle be viable. Old Cassio had both, and the only problem with her E was that it was too clunky, which is now fixed. The poison damage amp. from her E is unnecessary and it's not even fun nor interactive (just click E twice and you have it, there is no play around nor counter to that).

NineTailedMystic1 votes

Because 235 + 80% AP on top of her current passive is close to 800-1000 damage before resistances late game? Does that really need an amp?

DeusVult3 votes

Cass's laning phase wasnt opprssive because of twin fang spam

its was oppressive because pre-rework when her Q was actually good, you would max it first and if you landed it on the enemy laner, it was about 1/3 of their health gone.

then they gutted her, put everything in her E and passive, which is useless because the passive AP increases didnt mean jack since all of her ratios became garbage after the rework. And Cass can't just sit there and E to trade against most people, she is a squishy mage with no mobility, so late game she just blows up, especially if she doesnt land her ults stun

but she only has a small playerbase, so Rito doesn't care

IxtaliKing2 votes

I'm not very familiar with Cass or her pre rework state, but looking at those numbers she looks like she'd be an absolute nightmare to deal with; particularly for anyone melee or immobile.

Edit: Actually, after reading it again I see your point and kinda agree.

TheUltimateSpear2 votes

Mhm. Cassiopeia had/has a lot of theoretical power, but a lot of her damage is situational, and the increased cool down on Twin Fang means more than most people would think. It still had decent dps, but it wasn't AUTOWIN, you know?

junglerboy162 votes

Old Cass wasn't actually that much stronger than current cass in terms of damage, the difference is how she dealt her damage. Now she has atrocious AP ratios but is guaranteed to get around 1000 AP late game, so her scaling is roughly the same. The only real difference is that her poisons deal crap damage and her E deals a HUGE amount of damage.

Reverting to her old passive and ratios is a good idea, but I think that in order to keep her from being oppressive in lane they should have all of her AP ratios scale with level, say 2.5% AP increase per ability at level 1/4/7/10/13/16 (15% total) and then have her abilities all start at a flat 15% lower AP ratio. It's still kind of forced, but it doesn't make her nearly as binary as her current passive while still allowing her to scale into the game.

One question: What do you do about her twin fang heal and her Q's MS boost? Would you just say scrap those?

TheUltimateSpear2 votes

Hm. I think the movespeed on her Q could stay. Maybe, have it scale with rank of the ability again to be more potent later on to help Cassi kite heavy divers, and perhaps a little weaker in the laning phase to keep her from being overbearing.

As for her heal on twin fang... I'm not sure. I'd say scrap it because it isn't very noticeable until very late into the game anyways, but by the same token if you could leave it without Cassi being op, why take it out as well? But if she was op with the heal, I'd say take it out first.

TSM Scarra2 votes

No shes broken. This snake needs to die. Shes so toxic to play against, because you cant even 1v1 her. Stuns you. Poisons you. QQ and your dead before u can even flash.

TheUltimateSpear3 votes

You mean when she runs herself OOM? Because until she's got tear or catalyst that will be the case.

As for 1 v 1's... she's still good at those, I suppose. But, that's supposed to be her strength, at least with the rework. If she can't duel, what can she do?

TSM Scarra1 votes

But alot of champs OOM themselfs early game.... I dont get your logic.

Your logic: "If she cant 1v1 and kill you at level 3 shes too nerfed af!" No thats not the case. And Riot wont listen to you and your bs comments about this stuff. IMO she needs to get more nerfed...

Have you ever played swain? same shit, but he doesnt get tear, he gets RoA, and RoA costs alot more then that bs tear

TheUltimateSpear2 votes

Well, yeah, a lot of champions OOM themselves early game if they harass and miss some of their spells, sure.

I'm saying Cassiopeia OOMS herself even when she lands all her skillshots and Twin Fangs. If, at level 2 or 3, she tried to kill you with a QEEE-however many E's chain, she would oom herself before you were dead, even if she lands 100% of both of those skills. Her E costs 50 mana at the first rank for Christ's sake.

And yeah, Cassiopeia totally needs more nerfs, with her 1.9% playrate and 47.5% winrate. Which is one of the lowest for this month.

RoA costs more than tear because tear isn't a complete item, I don't get what you mean. And Swain himself is in a pretty bad spot, too.

TSM Scarra1 votes

So you think that if you land all skill shots at level 3, you should insta kill the enemy?! Rofl. Like I said, she deserves her nerf. If she had more mana reserve she could kill several times early game. Shes good where shes at, and at least she has a limit to her. Her "skillshots" arent even skill shots, and are pretty easy to land, with almost no way to dodge them, since its pretty much instantly appears. She has a limiting factor, that is obviously gone once she buys Tear of goddess, which costs nothing compared to RoA. Her early game is strong still, as she can deny farm early game, is a lane bully, due to her range of abilities, and is crazy hard to fight in 1v1s.

killd0zer2 votes

how does it make you feel tho know this wil never happen

khorney1 votes

i thinkj another rework would be meritied lol. i was thinking more of a adc type reowrk like medusa from smite

Prospector Pete9 votes

Don't you mean Medusa from Dota 2? And no, this would be a terrible idea anyway.

khorney1 votes

no medusa from smite it works there why not here

Prospector Pete14 votes

Because Cass isn't supposed to be an ADC...

khorney1 votes

so your denying anything i say and it works in smite why not this game ohh wait you cant give a reason

The Fast16 votes

Making Cass an ADC would only further the problem of the original rework, being that they want a POISON MAGE and she's a machine-gun mage right now. Its literally the exact opposite of what her playerbase wants for her.

khorney1 votes

she is basically a adc almost as it is. and how she is not is the exact oppisite of what people want. how she used to be she was awesome now she to be i dislike her ori playstyle ...... minus ori is better then they have pretty much the same passives minus ori affects the whole team cass can only affect 1 person. before she was strong mid and late game now she has to snowball or fall off

The Fast2 votes

Most cass players like her old playstyle better than her current playstyle. At least, the most vocal ones.

Cassiopeia was a Zone Control Damage Mage. Orianna is a Utility Control Mage. They have entirely different playstyle.

khorney1 votes

oris passive is the same as cass e making bonus damage minus oris can affect a whole team and not 1 person

The Fast2 votes

I'm sorry what. Did you really just compare Orianna's auto-attack enhancing passive the same as Cassiopeia's E?

khorney1 votes

yes i did both give you bonus damage read cass e passive and you will se what im talking about both add bonus damage minus oris is more effiecient

EfficientDynamo4 votes

You are missing the point. Yes you could make her into an ADC-style mage, but A) Cass mains hate that playstyle, B) it doesn't fit her theme at all, and C) it would make her mimic a character from another game, which would likely have both legal and artistic complications.

So yes they could make her like this Medusa, but there is no strong reason as to why this should happen.

khorney2 votes

she is basically leaning to that way anyway, i hate hate her rework, she was much stronger mid and late game before and i hate her ori playstyle right now. gee cass and medusa hmmm thats already artistic complications.....

EfficientDynamo1 votes

The model wouldn't be the issue, it would be the abilities/playstyle and the fact that both communities would pretty easily see the mimicry. Good companies differentiate their product from the competition.

khorney1 votes

they could do soemhting the fact that both companies have the same items just different names but exact same stats. what sets mobas apart is playstyles. smite is more of a 3rd person shooter compared to how league is way different and so what adding some ad scaling some range and bam. i mean ad works enough on malz grant it if the voidlings scaled 100%s ad instead of bonus ad . they could totally do it add some new adcs

Troll for Trump1 votes

No, that would fk up her identity as a spam burst mage.

It'd be like changing Zeus in SMITE to some Hades BS.

khorney1 votes

she is basically leaning to the medusa fence as it is why not finish the process

A Miss Fortune2 votes

Because she basically already isn't an ADC right.

khorney1 votes

you get what im saying in smite medusa e and cass e work rather similar minus medusa is a activated 3 basic ability a self cast of namis aa empower.

Wyrmblade3 votes

Mordekaiser Yeah because forcing a mage to be an adc worked so well last rework.

khorney1 votes

he isnt a adc first off just peopel take him bot lane becuase of his ad scaling bruiser build

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