Reminder to Riot Stashu that you still haven't kept your word. #2

TheUltimateSpear·Jul 15, 2015·80 votes·2,912 views

If you think I'm joking, you're wrong.

But seriously come on. Just talk to us. Something, anything. Again, if you're done working with Cassiopeia, you could say so instead of leaving her fanbase hanging for seven months.

Most of Cassiopeia's fans do not like E spam, and playing against a Twin Fang bot is more toxic than old Cass ever was.

Like I said, I will repost these threads until we get a red response, which, given that Riot Stashu is being irresponsible or lying, we are entitled to.

Seriously though come on please. ;-;

41 Comments

A Miss FortuneJul 15, 201525 votes

Yep

OhthePiplupJul 15, 20156 votes

Kill people! Burn shit! Fuck Cass! Kill people! Burn shit! Fuck Cass! Kill people! Burn shit! Fuck Cass! Kill people! Burn shit! Fuck Devourer! Kill people! Burn shit! Fuck Cass!

SaiannaJul 15, 20159 votes

is that new Beyonce or Rihuanen song?

HadesBladesJul 15, 20153 votes

Swear I heard it in this new song called "Happy"-ft riot's balanced team

CanastusJul 15, 201513 votes

The last set of nerfs pretty much killed any viability she had left in her, she's back to a measly 45% winrate for now.

Pre-rework Cassiopeia was superior in every regard since she had far better ratios and higher flat damage numbers along with an amazing passive which pretty much halved all of her manacosts thus enabling her to fight a lot longer without going oom in the middle of a crucial confrontation. This new Cass is nothing else but a shadow of what she used to be and lacks any kill-potential until she got her Tear fully stacked. And even then she can't fight half as long as her old self since her manacosts are too damn high.

Her current predicament is quite close to the issues she had back then in 4.18 when she was F-tier material, unable to fight back without wasting all of her resources instantly. She still remains an immobile caster who gets destroyed by anyone with access to cc or burst.

Seriously, if you want to play a dps ap caster nowadays, you're far better off with Karthus.

GrieferJul 15, 20157 votes

Bet ya $10 dollars worth of RP that he doesn't reply.

Riot honestly has gotten so much of themselves that their mindset went from "let's make this game better by taking in feedback" to "lmao so much $$$."

Seriously op, add me and if he actually does reply I'll gift you $10 RP.

ModAcademy KaynJul 15, 20152 votes

Can you blame them for not replying though? The League community isn't known for its "consideration" and "Understanding".

BiooutbreakJul 15, 20152 votes

Id say its not ok for riot to go quiet on any part of the game, despite community backlash, the backlash with personal attacks is never justifiable, but i feel riot really needs someone to speak up and go "we shall have to agree to disagree, soon, ect" otherwise players will feel left hanging.

TheUltimateSpearJul 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Can you blame them for not replying though? The League community isn't known for its "consideration" and "Understanding".

No, perhaps not. But even so it'd be better for people to lash out at Riot Stashu for a day than them being resentful for months. At least I think so.

I dunno. This just sucks you know?

GrieferJul 16, 20151 votes

yo op have you added me?

TheUltimateSpearJul 16, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Hunt Yordles,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AzqzIjkg,comment-id=0007000000010000,timestamp=2015-07-16T03:25:42.988+0000)

yo op have you added me?

I'm on it! Em, your name is capitalized as "I Hunt Yordles" right? Just to be sure. :P

GrieferJul 16, 20151 votes

mhmm. PM me if anything happens.

CanastusJul 16, 20151 votes

Speaking of adding someone, did anyone ever consider creating an union for us Cass-players so we may focus our efforts on threads from our members to give them the necessary attention thus securing a spot on the frontpage for Riot to look at? If you ask me that would make a huge impact.

Could be a Skype group or anything else, really. The sooner we organize ourselves, the more we can accomplish.

BhargoJul 15, 20154 votes

a fair portion of that is due to Riot having the tendency to ignore players concerns for so long that people change from worried to frustrated to angry. Communication would prevent it from happening in the first place.

GrieferJul 16, 20154 votes

like i said, riot actually used to listen to important feedback. you still see them reply on the boards every now and then, but most of it is just "we're working on it" and "coming 'soon.'"

EnvyDragon also describe this greatly.

"Because I think the balance team has no idea what the fuck they're doing, the lore team hasn't kept a promise to the community since roughly September of last year (if then), new champion designs are consistently unfun bullshit, and we cannot speak to developers anymore. Nobody fucking listens. Back in S2/S3, you used to be able to go on the forums and see reds responding frequently to player issues. If a champ was OP, or an item was OP, we could get someone in to say what was happening to fix it or why the changes were happening the way they were. And above all, the reds listened. If a change was unpopular, it would be reverted. Remember Slay Belle Katarina? People complained about her poledance recall. So they changed it."

its not just stashu, its riot in general. ive seen reds post "we're gonna try to grow closer to the community and listen to feedback" lmao yeah okay when im dead.

Oerba No NajaJul 22, 20152 votes

i have made so much reddit / forums about cassio's rework , and then her CHAIN nerf .. nobody ever cares ( only cassio pre reworks players did) so i gave up to try to make the old cassio come back ,

Leu07Jul 15, 20156 votes

Curiously, her win rate has been decreasing, it has reached the 45%, maybe they kind of overkilled it with the last sustain nerfs they did to her?

5G8Nri0B54Jul 15, 201513 votes

They created a kit that can only make people happy if and only if she is OP.

Turns out, that was a bad idea.

XietninJul 15, 20156 votes

Every time I come to the Stashu thread, I leave a little depressed because I never get anything out of it. I guess that really paints a picture for the history of Stashu and Cassiopeia respectively. Can't get to having Cassiopeia players happy and being able to play her for who she is.

Meeks011Jul 15, 20154 votes

What, you expect Riot to see a thread? In the Gameplay and Balance section?!? AND RESPOND TO IT?!? You need help, my friend.

FlaggedJul 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Did Stashu died?

On a more serious note though, we haven't heard from him since what, December? Looking at his boards profile he hasn't posted in 7 months. So either he's hard at work making sure Cassio's next iteration will come out Perfect... or... ?

{quoted}

What, you expect Riot to see a thread? In the Gameplay and Balance section?!? AND RESPOND TO IT?!? You need help, my friend.

Adc on the way to help. Dont worry.

Oerba No NajaJul 22, 20151 votes

gg skins section is more worth $$$

warpenguin555Jul 15, 20153 votes

Ya, im not a big fan of people going off the radar. (ironic because i do it all the time). i wish he would say something to you guys

rinsujoJul 15, 20151 votes

Did Stashu died?

On a more serious note though, we haven't heard from him since what, December? Looking at his boards profile he hasn't posted in 7 months. So either he's hard at work making sure Cassio's next iteration will come out Perfect... or... ?

BiooutbreakJul 15, 20152 votes

i don't understand these cass threads.

here's my understanding of the history of Cass:

cass release: due to her insane ratios, but terrible E on hit detection, cass has two ways to build, maxxing Q/w, and maxxing E. where E seemed to be the preferred gameplay sytle and Q was an unhealthy for lane gameplay style. a bug fix was made to her E hit detection but never went live because how insane cass would become, and hold off till they rebalance her. i believe at this time she also got a slight nerf to her ratios, but they were still crazy. Shurima Event: Cass gets remade to be a more lategame AP Carry. reducing the Q/W ap ratio to stop the unhealthy laning and encourage engaging laners with E. when board wants more poison damage, Riot (i believe stashu was the voice of the rework, but that it was a team effort) put a poison amp damage on E, making it so that Cass retained her want to engage laners and still be able to have more damage with poisons. i believe after this point cass was considered "done" (remember that Riot/game devs in general never think something is fully done, so that could be why there was no "sign off" on it, that and Stashu was getting unjustly and disgustingly attacked on the forums) live balance takes over and we see the set of changes, and the recent nerfs.

from how i see it, it looks exactly like the AP Yi AD Yi comparison. was AP yi OP? yes and no, was he hella annoying and troublesome? yes very much so. i'm not saying poisons Cass was OP, just that it had an unhealthy gameplay pattern in lane. (Q. did Q hit? doesn't matter run away till Q is off cooldown. repeat till enemy laner is low, then engage)

5G8Nri0B54Jul 15, 20155 votes

The issue was two-folds. Her Q allowed her to harass. Her E was so OP that it made response utterly impossible unless you were a poke champion.

So they had two options.

Turn Q into shit, but overload her E.

Overload her Q, but turn her E into shit.

Drastically rework her into something that fits the Poison Mage identity of hers. This may or may not preserve her Q or E's current mechanics.

Considering most Cass players liked her as a Poison Mage and couldn't give enough of a rats ass about breaking their E button, guess which direction Stashu chose?

AbyssphereJul 15, 20154 votes

{quoted}

i don't understand these cass threads.

here's my understanding of the history of Cass:

cass release: due to her insane ratios, but terrible E on hit detection, cass has two ways to build, maxxing Q/w, and maxxing E. where E seemed to be the preferred gameplay sytle and Q was an unhealthy for lane gameplay style. a bug fix was made to her E hit detection but never went live because how insane cass would become, and hold off till they rebalance her. i believe at this time she also got a slight nerf to her ratios, but they were still crazy. Shurima Event: Cass gets remade to be a more lategame AP Carry. reducing the Q/W ap ratio to stop the unhealthy laning and encourage engaging laners with E. when board wants more poison damage, Riot (i believe stashu was the voice of the rework, but that it was a team effort) put a poison amp damage on E, making it so that Cass retained her want to engage laners and still be able to have more damage with poisons. i believe after this point cass was considered "done" (remember that Riot/game devs in general never think something is fully done, so that could be why there was no "sign off" on it, that and Stashu was getting unjustly and disgustingly attacked on the forums) live balance takes over and we see the set of changes, and the recent nerfs.

from how i see it, it looks exactly like the AP Yi AD Yi comparison. was AP yi OP? yes and no, was he hella annoying and troublesome? yes very much so. i'm not saying poisons Cass was OP, just that it had an unhealthy gameplay pattern in lane. (Q. did Q hit? doesn't matter run away till Q is off cooldown. repeat till enemy laner is low, then engage)

Your history is almost right (outside of subjective stuff, but whatever) but you falter by saying Cass was "done" after the buffs she got along with the poison amp on Twin Fang. Stashu explicitly said at the time that Cass was far from done and there was more in the pipeline for her - not just to fix her balance situation but to actually improve on the design and fun of the rework, to make her poisons more important and so on. He said he would be back to use when they locked down on those changes.

Then he never spoke to us again except for joking about how OP she is on Twitter. If she WAS handed over to the live balance team when the designer promised that she would get fixed in a more meaningful way, we deserved to be told.

BiooutbreakJul 15, 20152 votes

I do appreciate the responses, subjective stuff has many interpretations and i dont think mine is better than anothers, i just dont like seeing anyone attacked personally you know? Anyway , i think im mostly annoyed about 2 things overall in the rework. That we really didnt know what stipulations the rework had, and because of that there cant be any critical ideas for the rework.

Im a believer in the saying that you shouldnt complain about somwthing without offering a better suggestion. But since we werent in the meetings we can only guess at what happened. So maybe there was a need to not change the core abilities very much while making laning more interactive. In this made up example, its very hard to make achange that keeps poison damage as is while not changing them too much, but since no one outside of riot rework team knows, that means that any suggestion could be cast aside because it wouldnt work with the stipulations, so not knowing means we all just looking in from the outside.

I can understand wanting a final "we are done for now" post, but i dont think riot has ever made one of those to my knowledge, but a good bet would be when we see balance like changes to a champ.

Now looking at how it came out ill offer my own change. Q has reduced range to make the lane more interactive, give it a staking dot that wears off quick but does damage. (Kinda similar to karthus) W farther range Switch e and r. E now does no dmg, cass channels in cast direction for x time that strikes at the end of the duration. Cass can move but reduced movement. Enemies facing cass in cast range are slowed, and then stunned if still facing when cast ends. R twin fang is the same but also hits an adjacent enemy. ("Twin" fang)

Anyeay ive rambled. Again thanks for the responses i do hope you guys hear something, just knowing riot i would doubt it :/

Leu07Jul 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

i don't understand these cass threads.

here's my understanding of the history of Cass:

cass release: due to her insane ratios, but terrible E on hit detection, cass has two ways to build, maxxing Q/w, and maxxing E. where E seemed to be the preferred gameplay sytle and Q was an unhealthy for lane gameplay style. a bug fix was made to her E hit detection but never went live because how insane cass would become, and hold off till they rebalance her. i believe at this time she also got a slight nerf to her ratios, but they were still crazy. Shurima Event: Cass gets remade to be a more lategame AP Carry. reducing the Q/W ap ratio to stop the unhealthy laning and encourage engaging laners with E. when board wants more poison damage, Riot (i believe stashu was the voice of the rework, but that it was a team effort) put a poison amp damage on E, making it so that Cass retained her want to engage laners and still be able to have more damage with poisons. i believe after this point cass was considered "done" (remember that Riot/game devs in general never think something is fully done, so that could be why there was no "sign off" on it, that and Stashu was getting unjustly and disgustingly attacked on the forums) live balance takes over and we see the set of changes, and the recent nerfs.

from how i see it, it looks exactly like the AP Yi AD Yi comparison. was AP yi OP? yes and no, was he hella annoying and troublesome? yes very much so. i'm not saying poisons Cass was OP, just that it had an unhealthy gameplay pattern in lane. (Q. did Q hit? doesn't matter run away till Q is off cooldown. repeat till enemy laner is low, then engage)

Ejem, almost every poke champ is like that, look at freaking Lux Ziggs Azir even now f*cking Varus have a poke 'hit and run' play style, they want to wither you down before they engage on you. So, why is cassiopeia not allowed to play that style? I'm the kind of person who likes to max E, but in some matchups, maxing Q was actually just safer, I would always max Q as prerework Cassi against Zed and Annie for instance. I really think that being a lane bully was an identity of Cassiopeia too, they nerfed it, but at least she had some sustain to actually fight back in some lanes, now the sustain is just not that enough (her E mana sustain got gutted by half). Cassiopeia is a late game champ now, yes, that's cool to me, but that doesn't mean she has to get a punny early game, specially when she already has a lot of counterplay potential (a nice CC lockdown and some mobility shit on her).

BiooutbreakJul 16, 20151 votes

Working off memory since i cant look anything up atm, but if i had to guess the difference it was probably cass's old q ratios with her how short the cd was combined with her old passive. The other champs usually have a clamp somewhere from those three things, (dmg, cd, mana cost) but i could be wrong.

Curling VeigarJul 15, 20152 votes

they havent done a lot of things they said they'd do

so it isnt really surprising

TheUltimateSpearJul 15, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sadistic Veigar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AzqzIjkg,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-07-15T15:08:32.507+0000)

they havent done a lot of things they said they'd do

so it isnt really surprising

It isn't, but still disappointing. But Riot Stashu should've kept his word, or if not, at least say he wouldn't and explain why. That would be professional, you know? But alas, what can we do.

ZantumallJul 15, 20152 votes

Most of Cassiopeia's fans do not like E spam, and playing against a Twin Fang bot is more toxic than old Cass ever was.

Maybe the reason you think that "most Cass fans" don't like the new kit is because those are the only people who bother making a new thread on the forums every single day? I know plenty of people who like the reworked kit more than the old one. Please don't make generalized claims about people you cannot hope to speak for.

TheUltimateSpearJul 15, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Maybe the reason you think that "most Cass fans" don't like the new kit is because those are the only people who bother making a new thread on the forums every single day? I know plenty of people who like the reworked kit more than the old one. Please don't make generalized claims about people you cannot hope to speak for.

Okay, let me clarify. I hate to argue numbers but they could really help in this case.

Cassiopeia's winrate is ~45% now. It was ~50% pre-rework.

Cassiopeia's pickrate fluctuates about 2-3%. That's the same or a little more than what it was.

And the design on the rework is objectively bad. I don't want to be harsh, but look at her passive. It's snowbally, it's binary, and uninteractive.

As Ginga said earlier, people were for the most part only content with her kit when it was op, and when it wasn't her pickrate lowered to what it already was before the rework.

And honestly, sure people don't post threads against Cass very often, but before the rework, people didn't complain about her at all. Seriously- being harassed with Q was annoying, but losing half your health after one false step is worse.

Laning as Cassiopeia is landing a Q and E-ing all over the enemy laner until they lost about 2/3 their health and you're oom. It's not fun for either party. :/

NeclordJul 21, 20152 votes

hey look stashu is talking about fiora

hehe

TheUltimateSpearJul 22, 20152 votes

{quoted}

hey look stashu is talking about fiora

hehe

Dry heave

Please tell me you're joking.

Edit: You're not joking. Welp. Off to make another thread.

Silents429Jul 15, 20151 votes

But seriously come on. Just talk to us. Something, anything. Again, if you're done working with Cassiopeia, you could say so instead of leaving her fanbase hanging for seven months.

Hah. I am not the least bit surprised he wouldn't come, those seven months is hatred building up for Cass mains to flip at him no matter what he says.

ChaosThiefJul 16, 20151 votes

Laning against her in a nutshell:

Avoid poison. Get poisoned, 1/2 your health gone.

Already lost half your health? You're dead.

...am I wrong?

Leu07Jul 16, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Laning against her in a nutshell:

Avoid poison. Get poisoned, 1/2 your health gone.

Already lost half your health? You're dead.

...am I wrong?

Let me fix that for you: Laning AS Cass in a nutshell:

Land poison, proceed to combo with E spam, get oom cuz u cass, laner pots up and zones you away, proceed to farm under tower.

The Queen ViperJul 22, 20151 votes

Depends.

Champions who start with item 2041 + item 2003 ... Cass will go oom before they go out of health.