Reminder to Riot Stashu that you still haven't kept your word. #4 Now you're back so please answer.

TheUltimateSpear·Jul 22, 2015·71 votes·15,242 views

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/23/31/cd/2331cd6be3a4a8b283bb1985523f57be.jpg

Oh, you're back Riot Stashu.

Look, I know it might sound selfish to do this now that you're on board with Fiora's kit tweaks.

But please please please please PLEASE answer us. You said you were going to continue working on Cassiopeia to make her more based on her poisons.

Are you, or are you not? If you are, then just say you are and it'll take some time. If you're not, which is almost certainly the case, you owe it to Cassiopeia's fans to say you aren't, and an explanation as to why you changed your mind. Whether or not you and/or Riot consider Cassi's rework a success, you still owe her fans closure. You're professionals, aren't you?

I'm seriously not giving up until you give us at least an explanation. You owe us at least that, and you know it.

120 Comments

RiotMeddlerJul 22, 201557 votes

Stashu's not working on Cassiopeia at present. If we do make adjustments to Cass in the short to medium term they're much more likely to be done by the Live Balance team than the Champion Update team (so would mainly involve power shifts, rather than significant changes to how her skills function).

That's the case because a number of months ago we took a look at the current state of Cass and concluded that it was more important to have the Champion Update team focus on other characters. That's not to say we think she's in a perfect spot. In particular, we realize there's some very valid frustration that she doesn't deliver as well as she could on the thematic expectations a number of her players have (poison mage). We do think there are other champions that need work done on them more however, so are focused on those at present, with Fiora being the most recent example. I realize that's likely pretty frustrating to hear if you're a Cass player that doesn't like her new kit, and my apologies for that.

In terms of making that priority call that was a decision Stashu contributed some thoughts to, but didn't make himself. Riot does have a culture that supports individual developers pitching work they think's valuable/arguing for what they believe in, but it's not a 'work on whatever you want regardless of team priorities' culture. Stashu's stance was that he was eager to do Cass followup work or take on Fiora, whichever we thought was more valuable. The conclusion Champion Update and Game Design leadership came to was that Fiora was the better call in this case, since she was a character with a lot of room for improvement/cool stuff and had some notable issues. We also believed Fiora had the potential to be a pretty successful gameplay rework, based off some early exploratory designs Guinsoo had been doing before he'd had to shift focus onto other stuff.

That decision to shift focus from Cass to other champs is something those of us making the call on what work to prioritize should have mentioned months ago, apologies for that lack of communication. If anyone's got any queries about how we make those sort of priority calls I'm more than happy to have a go at answering them here. I probably won't be able to answer specifics about Cass' current state of balance or what guided detailed decisions on her rework however (will give it a shot if I can offer an at least somewhat informed answer, there's a bunch of details there I wasn't involved with/aren't up to date on).

LibermannJul 22, 201512 votes

I'm not a Stashu hater. But as a player I seriously appreciate the clarity given here. Hell, it's probably the biggest gripe I've had in dealing with any company. With the general lack of transparency it can be easy to assume someone like Stashu can work on whatever he wants whenever he wants.

A personal question of mine is how much consideration is given to a Rioters opinion on something? Can 1 Rioter be for X and another be against, putting the X in a deadlock situation (outside of leadership intervention of coarse)? Does seniority get taken into account? Division priority?

Another one of mine is what determines who is a part of a certain devisions Leadership? Past and Current experience? How long they've worked for Riot or other places of work? Whoever got here first is the leader? Pull random names out of a hat?

Thank you for your post. :)

RiotMeddlerJul 23, 201516 votes

Teams at Riot have goals they're built to accomplish and the people on those teams spend most of their time at work focused on those goals. Champion Team's there to make new champions, Live Balance to balance the game, the Events team is there to work on stuff like URF or Bilgewater etc. Individuals on those teams can (and often do) pitch ideas on how to accomplish those goals, or sometimes suggest alternative goals to the leads on those teams or Riot's overall leadership (who set high level priorities for the company).

Debate's over the best way to accomplish something are pretty common, and healthy discussion's a really important part of how we work. Discussion over what the most appropriate ways to balance a new champion that's too weak for example can be a great way of finding ways to add power that also add as much satisfaction as possible, without creating game health problems. Deadlocks do happen at times though of course, and in those cases we've got a small leadership group on each team who are responsible for making the call on how to proceed. Validity of argument/how well aligned proposed approaches are to the team's/Riot's goals are what we're interested in when choosing between possible options, not length of time at the company or title of the people who've suggested them.

In terms of how we determine who the people responsible for leading each team are, that's part of the job application process or an internal transfer/promotion. Generally we're after people with significant experience, an interest in supporting others more than implementing directly themselves and a desire to help people work together when hiring for those sorts of roles. Communication skills, ability to help resolve conflicts, develop long term plans, co-ordinate work etc are also all really valuable.

Hope that gives you a bit more of an idea of how we work, let me know if there's more details you're interested in.

Scarborough FairJul 23, 201514 votes

Are you going to consider our feed back for once and work on Cass sooner rather than later or are you going to ignore us again and leave us with your unfinished mess of a rework?

Chaotic SageJul 23, 20156 votes

How about phrasing that like this instead. Have you or the team that will hopefully be in charge of the future Cassiopeia changes taken a significant look at the communities feedback on her? Either way, would you be able to give us a time frame for when the team responsible will be working on her and a ballpark of when it might be done?

Oerba No NajaJul 23, 20153 votes

idk if it will make them react more or less about cassio'issues and her pre-rework fan base .

Oerba No NajaJul 27, 20151 votes

well meddler is afk .

NagmaJul 28, 20152 votes

ignored , again , lol , maybe its take a lot of time to ask to the balance team to consider to work on cassio xd . riot offices must be huge ; kappa ; #kappanextlvl #riot #balanceteamop #feedback ;

TheUltimateSpearJul 23, 20154 votes

Look, Meddler, we appreciate the response on Cassiopeia. It's just frustrating to hear Stashu and whoever else is leaving her when she's not finished. And it's worrying to hear you're not working on Cassiopeia "right now," because with the way communication and feedback consideration has gone in this rework, "not now" sounds like "not ever."

It's worrying because it honestly seems like you guys are done with Cassiopeia and won't pick her up again. That's not okay considering you KNOW there's problems with her current state, and MORE problems than there were before her rework if you're willing to be honest.

NagmaJul 28, 20151 votes

riot is not even reading the thousands cassio threads , allah is wacthing :>

Scarborough FairJul 22, 201585 votes

Then WHY rework her to begin with? If you start a job that you aren't able to finish why go on with it anyway? That rework was very negatively received the moment it was released on the PBE. You tried to make it work and you failed and then you're saying you won't continue with it just because other champions are in more need of work? Yes, it's pretty frustrating having something unfinished and then being told that it won't be finished till you feel like it.

Malzahard ModeJul 22, 201510 votes

They reworked her because while her old kit in and of itself may have been "better", in the overall scope of the game it wasn't in a good place with it either being underwhelming or highly overpowered if you got ahead a.k.a The Yorick Effect; and we all know what happened to him. Rather than leaving Cass in that spot they made the changes with the intention of being able to follow up and make fixes if necessary. Now while the intent was to follow up sooner over later, things come up or change.

The ChampUp team could put even more hours into one champion out of dozens of other who need work, or move on to another project(s) and revisit when possible. So while we should have gotten an answer as to why there was no followup much earlier than now, player (or Riot) shaming Stashu isn't going to make them change over now. If Riot as a team, decides Cass needs further work, they'll revisit her; and when they do that people will complain about "Why no Teric? Shen plerse! Where's my poppy updert? Rito Please!" So they can't please everyone and you'll have to patient (possibly forever) for Cass to be re-reworked, in the mean time, there are 125 other champions available to play =)

Vistha KaiJul 22, 201545 votes

They reworked her because while her old kit in and of itself may have been "better", in the overall scope of the game it wasn't in a good place with it either being underwhelming or highly overpowered if you got ahead a.k.a The Yorick Effect; and we all know what happened to him. Rather than leaving Cass in that spot they made the changes with the intention of being able to follow up and make fixes if necessary. Now while the intent was to follow up sooner over later, things come up or change.

Excuse me what?

They made her kit even more toxic and binary than what it was and haven't fixed any of her other problems.

Scarborough FairJul 22, 201539 votes

The rework was to fix her lane bullying and they made her even more of one, except she is far less fun and her kit is a thematic mess. "There are 125 other champions to play" outright stupid argument, why should we have to settle? Thats like saying "you like strawberry but you can have coffee or pistachio"

SeductiveGrandpaJul 22, 20152 votes

It basically means, get over it. If you don't like it...dont play it. I mean, there are 125 other champs you can play if you think Cass is less fun and a mess..you don't have to play her. Sure, feedback is good but holy shit you guys just wont stop with this, its just "omgfurgururgu Stashu plz" must be frustrating to see this so damn commonly. Ya just gonna have to wait my friend.

SolaxoJul 22, 201521 votes

[{quoted}](name=Avian Dreams,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ATz3FhUE,comment-id=00020001000000020000,timestamp=2015-07-22T15:51:31.556+0000)

It basically means, get over it. If you don't like it...dont play it. I mean, there are 125 other champs you can play if you think Cass is less fun and a mess..you don't have to play her. Sure, feedback is good but holy shit you guys just wont stop with this, its just "omgfurgururgu Stashu plz" must be frustrating to see this so damn commonly. Ya just gonna have to wait my friend.

Np. we got used to waiting for Riot to get their shit done. Like Quinn players who are waiting TWO YEARS to have her BUGS fixed.

ModAcademy KaynJul 22, 20152 votes

Cass's new playstyle is at least engaging for the opponent, instead of you just hanging behind minion waves, poisoning them to death.

Sure it may not be the best playstyle, but it made her an aggressive lane bully, instead of a passive lane bully. You can punish aggressive.

OperationDEEZ1Jul 22, 201514 votes

QEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE Congratulations, you've just learned how to play Cassiopeia, now get out there and mow down the competition!

NullDragonJul 22, 20151 votes

Except people who like coffee or pistachio outnumbers the strawberry lovers, and it would take the same amount of time to satisfy both groups.

AbyssphereJul 22, 20157 votes

{quoted}

Except people who like coffee or pistachio outnumbers the strawberry lovers, and it would take the same amount of time to satisfy both groups.

Not seeing this given that Cass's play rate started collapsing the second she got nerfed out of freelo tier.

Rinky DinkyJul 22, 201516 votes

Darius

2 years we were told is was 99% complete. Just now getting here....

But yes, this is probably a much bigger failure to deliver me thinks. You old school Cass fans have my sympathy

RrettJul 22, 201514 votes

As a veigar player, I feel you.

At least cass got the idea of attention, veigar just kind of got shit kicked and a buff just to make his winrate look nice so people won't complain as much. Which they did to cass as well.

OperationDEEZ1Jul 22, 20153 votes

Kassadin

PAULlNEJul 22, 20152 votes

I like new veigar and I loved the old one. I mean i think he was more reliable before but hes much more fun to play now that he has more skillshots.

RrettJul 24, 20151 votes

Sorry but your comment is such an obvious troll comment.

The sad part is I don't even think you're kidding.

NefasJul 22, 201539 votes

So that's really how it is? Cass and Cass players get ignored for a while more because she already received some kind of rework? How far back in the champion update line is she being pushed? I hate how Cass is now and don't play the champion at all because of the kit changes. I tried. It's boring as hell.

BeatzBoyFTWJul 22, 20152 votes

Uhh imo, I find that throwing one Q which already deals 50% of enemy's HP like it used to, was more boring than the current Cass which takes actual mechanics skills.

Vistha KaiJul 22, 201535 votes

Current Cass which takes actual mechanics skills.

QEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEQEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

You can't be serious.

BeatzBoyFTWJul 22, 20157 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ATz3FhUE,comment-id=0002000200000000,timestamp=2015-07-22T11:27:36.370+0000)

QEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEQEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

You can't be serious.

Process in killing a single opponent:

New Cass= QEEEEQEEEEWEEEEEEEEEE as u said

Old Cass= QQQQ

I don't know why people prefer the old one. Looks too plain.

NielarkenJul 22, 201516 votes

Im sorry you bust your bubble but old cass you actually have to use W and R for more then just a stun and a slow. Her old W did the most damage out of all of her spells the trade off was no one was stupid enough to stand in it for the full duration, oh but wait your R stuns now you can make them stand in it and did good damage itself.

A Miss FortuneJul 22, 201517 votes

Actually, sometimes I use W.

You're welcome

Vistha KaiJul 22, 20159 votes

I use it sometimes too.

When I'm too stoned to bother aiming.

A Miss FortuneJul 22, 20157 votes

You don't need to aim you just need to tape down your E key and buy like 6 tears. The other abilities are just there for visual effects.

Vistha KaiJul 22, 20159 votes

How to Cassio:

Pick Teemo and Cassio.
Go duo lane.
???
Profit!

ModAcademy KaynJul 23, 20151 votes

AS much as I disagree with Beatz's idea of what Mechanics are, I still hate the fact how people ignore the problem with Old Cass, which is what he states.

The Q did A LOT of damage, and when people could use that to damage and run away, it created a passive lane bully. New Cass at least has to use her Q's speed boost to get near you, instead of securing distance so they couldn't retaliate.

Edit: I take the point of what the ABUSERS were doing, not the true gameplay that Cass had that included her W and R much better. In no way do I think the rework was successful, but it sure as hell moved her away from a unhealthier state.

Vistha KaiJul 23, 20153 votes

When you have a champion like Annie doing what she wants with uncounterable 0.8 AP ratios on everything, I wholehardly think Cassio wasn't a problem.

At least not big enough to halve damage of half of her kit. 0.6 ratio on Q would be enough of a nerf for everybody, since that's a "typical" ratio on a poke ability.

NefasJul 22, 201528 votes

If I wanted to play Ryze, I would play Ryze. I dont want to play a spell machine gun, mana stacking, late game hyper carry when I play Cass.

AbyssphereJul 22, 20159 votes

{quoted}

Uhh imo, I find that throwing one Q which already deals 50% of enemy's HP like it used to, was more boring than the current Cass which takes actual mechanics skills.

Yes, hovering over someone and pressing E as quickly as possible takes a lot of mechanics. Those targeted abilities just aren't as easy to use as they used to be!

MathbalnaseJul 22, 20156 votes

{quoted}

That decision to shift focus from Cass to other champs is something those of us making the call on what work to prioritize should have mentioned months ago, apologies for that lack of communication.

Thank you.

rinsujoJul 22, 201518 votes

I mean, yeah, thanks for finally telling us now... but, um, can Riot not do this whole "start something, put it down, jump to something else, jump to something else, jump to something else, oh right, the first thing, uhhh... we'll come back to it." Lore. Champs. Itemization. Look, if you're going to work on something commit to it and do it. If you've got 20 jobs to do, starting 2-5, then jumping to 6-9, then jumping to 11-14, then going back to 2 and 4 is inefficient. Prep 1-8, move them forward to the next person. prep 9-15. But starting Cass, then dropping her for god knows how long in a half-fixed state that people haven't like since it was on PBE is just frustrating. Same goes for lore. Shurima isn't finished due to 'tech issues' and now we're in Bilgewater after we paused on the way for Harrowing.

Look, I'm not angry. I'm disappointed, I'm frustrated, I'm upset, but I get it, Rioters are people too and I'm not going to be one of the ones who acts like a spoiled child and cries and screams and throws things. But can we please get some kind of consistency from Riot? Please?

Chaotic SageJul 22, 201510 votes

I just don't get why people down vote Meddler here. He's saying nothing wrong or bad, just telling us about a judgement call that was made. Granted it was months ago but he did apologize for the lack of communication on their part. Even considering that, he just apologized for it too, cut him a break, it's not as though he has an infinite mind or infinite resources to work with that he can remember to and do everything all the time. We all forget sometimes and there's a finite amount of time in the day.

As for those of you that are angry at him for telling you that he sent Stashu onto a different project. Why? Meddler told us that Stashu is not a 'lead' so as he said, he has some freedom but the team needs some direction or a set of priorities. Priorities are an essential part of any business, and that's what Riot is. If they didn't prioritize, do you have any idea how many more unfinished projects we'd have? Can you imagine champion reveals being released and then not hearing about them for the next 6 months to a year because Riot got distracted and decided to work on something else (yes it may already happen but we generally see other content released instead so their priorities obviously shifted, it happens in all walks of life so the real question is do you want to see it constantly?)? So, yes, priorities do matter. Not to mention he did say that she is still on their list of priorities if you read his post right so we will see more on her sometime (maybe if you ask politely, Meddler will be able to give you some timeline or a peek at their priorities list).

I know full well there's way too much Riot hate for this to be anything but down voted but I'm really just fed up with it now. They're a company that provides a free to play game to an enormous community with an equally enormous demand for service. It's a free game, be happy that they do things as quickly as they do and still actually talk to us, albeit less frequently now, but maybe that has something to do with them always getting huge quantities of negative feedback every time they try.

Maybe if we tried to ask our questions more politely, he'll respond to us here, as he offered to do. Such as maybe asking, hey, Meddler, would you be able to give us some insight as to where Cassiopeia stands in terms of the teams list of priorities? Would we be able to get a rough timeline as to when that would come around? May we ask if there are any ideas surrounding what might be changed about Cassiopeia when she comes under the teams focus?

rinsujoJul 22, 20153 votes

Because people tend to downvote based on opinions. Which, when the person posting is a normal player, isn't helpful and doesn't encourage discourse because it buries the post. When a Rioter posts, however, due to the number of replies and possibility of sticky, downvoting for opinion is more relevant, since Riot posts are almost always highly visible and quality of the post is rarely in question.

Chaotic SageJul 23, 20151 votes

I mean, yea, but what's the point of down voting a post that's full of information we've 'wanted' for a while now. Literally he's answering questions that have been on the boards for months. So, we're down voting him for responding at that point? Down voting him based on what he told us? It's not as though his job is easy people, he has to make decisions that he knows will be unpopular with a large chunk of the community. I imagine it's not like he relishes making decisions that he's fully aware he'll get negative flak for but does it anyway because it'll improve the game in Riot's eyes (may not always be right but no ones perfect). I imagine he probably looks forward with something akin to glee when he gets to make a decision that will be popular with the community though.

rinsujoJul 23, 20152 votes

Not defending it, just explaining. I don't agree with it either.

5G8Nri0B54Jul 22, 20159 votes

Keep in mind that

a) the entire community still don't have an unanimous consensus over the point of downvotes (Disagree? Dislike? Passive-Aggressive F-U?)

and

b) there aren't many more ways to voice disagreement and displeasure. You can't say we aren't explaining clearly, because as you can see from the replies, people are clearly voicing their displeasure over the way they butchered Cassiopeia and just left her there...and us in the dark

Chaotic SageJul 23, 20151 votes

a) That may be true, but the general consensus is a negative, yes? So my further question becomes, if we're just going to be negative at every Rioter that comments and tries to give insight then what exactly do we expect? Everyone has a limit of willingness to try with a constant negative response. Eventually I can see them just giving us the patch notes with limited to no explanation and no feedback at all from what we say.

b) Yes, but my whole point was that how bout we try to not attack him in our 'displeasure'? How bout instead simply voice concerns, and ask politely for updates, timelines or anything else in a reasonable controlled manner. It's really not that difficult, you can rage at the screen all you like but would you expect any sort of explanation or even response in an in person conversation after you just went on a huge aggressively negative, hate filled rant against someone? Did you actually read my post in full? Cause I pointed out that he did in fact apologize for that. Now I know that the community for whatever reason doesn't want to understand how a business works, but still, he apologized at the very least, so how about instead of attacking him we treat him like a part of a corporation that's providing us with a free to play game that we all love (anyone who argues they don't, why are you here?)? What's the point of fostering hate and negativity, all it does is breed more of the same.

5G8Nri0B54Jul 23, 20157 votes

if we're just going to be negative at every Rioter that comments and tries to give insight then what exactly do we expect?

Except not every single single Riot posts are downvoted. In fact, I'd say the MAJORITY of the times they're upvoted on the basis that they're Rioters. Often time Rioters are subjected to mass downvotes are when they are directly related to something that ticks a lot of people off...or are the closest person people can gain access to that ticks a lot of people off.

Think the time they went and ruined Katarina's Christmas skin over a SJW-complaint. The subsequent thread that advertised the skin on sale received like 1k downvotes out of protest (the bandaid fix only made things worse)

And don't think people have went on to post walls after walls of reasoning for why they dislike the change, they did. But the downvote system is also another tool at their disposal to voice it too, since Riot clearly doesn't read each and every single hundreds of feedbacks.

voice concerns, and ask politely for updates, timelines or anything else in a reasonable controlled manner

We have...for the past few months. Very politely, with a helping of passion as expected from a fan of a work. As far as Cassiopeia in a vacuum goes, several months. Of course as you've probably noticed, people's patience kinda wore thin after multiple promises to fix her, disappear for months, only to return to break it to people that she's going to be left as she is. A bit of agitation is normal.

went on a huge aggressively negative, hate filled rant against someone?

What you read as hate-filled, others see as point of emphasis with a helping of disappointment.

bold, CAPS, !exclamation marks!, and ?question marks? are the most powerful forms of emphasis in text-based speech. Depending on their usage, can seem hateful to some, but to others, express shock, disappointment, or simply to EMPHASIZE CERTAIN POINTS!!!

Jesus Canaj 420Jul 22, 201521 votes

Why couldn't Stashu answer this? I know he's on these boards recently, he's been on the Fiora boards. The major frustration was with him specifically, yet he can't be bothered to clear it up himself? :/

LintheJul 22, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jesus Canaj,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ATz3FhUE,comment-id=00020014,timestamp=2015-07-22T17:23:25.753+0000)

Why couldn't Stashu answer this? I know he's on these boards recently, he's been on the Fiora boards. The major frustration was with him specifically, yet he can't be bothered to clear it up himself? :/

Why does this even matter?? There was an official answer... from a red rioter.

Jesus Canaj 420Jul 22, 201519 votes

Because the problem is a matter of transparency. It's Stashu who promised something, and now someone else is giving us an answer way after everyone was complaining for him to say anything. It's also a matter of the fact that he was commenting on other boards, meaning he was consciously avoiding the problem.