You changed "ADC" to "Marksman"

RookPusher·Jan 16, 2015·19 votes·3,594 views

You may want to think about changing the name "support" to something else. Maybe Strategist or whatever.

In an already highly toxic community, you've got people who see "support" and read "lap dog." It's usually these players that lead to the most losses.
It deters people from playing the role. I don't mind that, I get insta-games in TB, but it's not good for the game overall. If "Support" was a champ, it would be due for a rework
The other issue I keep seeing is that supports are pigeon-holed in the mind of the player base. A classic example is Gangplank. His secondary role is "support" - the game lists him as that. He also has a pretty decent kit for supporting, and when I queue up in TB as a support GB I kicked religiously.

I want to repeat myself here to make a point. **When I take a game-listed support champ, with a solid support kit, in a position that's in demand, and will cut down on their queue time by 5 to 10 minutes - they still choose to wait. ** That might involve other elements, but the primary one is this "Gangplank can't CC things for me to get fed. Not a support. Kick him."

And you can safely guess that this is a person who doesn't play support often. Personally, I don't care. I'm getting another game in 5 seconds. Hell, kick me from the next 10 games, I'm still getting to play well before your 4 are. (or 40, as it were). But this isn't about me. It's about the game, and this small change could help in bridging the gap between those of us who know how to win, and the arrogantly uninformed.

51 Comments

Done25Jan 16, 201513 votes

It really is unfortunate that the term "Support" has become so twisted and meaningless that it applies to anyone who can go bot and get the marksman fed. (Such as "Support" Annie or "Support" Fiddlesticks who are really just Mages with powerful point and click CC.)

In my mind there are three requirements for a Support.

Can heal an ally. (Soraka, Sona, Taric)
Can sheild an ally. (Oriana, Morgana, Lux)
Can buff an ally. (Nami, Janna, Lulu)

Notice how Leona isn't on there. The only thing she does to directly "support" her team is with her passive's bonus damage. Which isn't the reason she's picked.

Oriana is more of a Support than Leona even though she's primarily mid. Ori can sheild an ally, speeding them up while slowing nearby enemies before causing a huge displacement AoE.

I'm just not sure what else we could call people like Soraka to help the community better understand the class.

disregardableJan 16, 201514 votes

By the strict definition, a support is any champion that provides utility to the team that doesn't particularly need gold to scale. Any champion with strong cc will fit that definition, even if you don't consider them supports, as well as those that heal, shield, and "buff".

Also using that definition, I don't see a particular problem with renaming the support role to the "utility" role.

Done25Jan 16, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=j2WJrmI9,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-01-16T18:39:23.204+0000)

By the strict definition, a support is any champion that provides utility to the team that doesn't particularly need gold to scale. Any champion with strong cc will fit that definition, even if you don't consider them supports, as well as those that heal, shield, and "buff".

The problem is that it's an outdated definition by now. With the new items (like Frostqueen, Face of the Mountain, and ward trinkets), "supports" now have more gold to use on themselves than ever! Hence the temporary rise of Annie and Fiddle who have great scaling. (Before Riot intentionally kicked them out of bottom lane.)

And by the definition of "used only for high base and strong CC" you end up with a lot of cross class contamination. Such as the previous Annie example. She's very obviously a text book example of a Mage, but she was also being used as a Support class/in the support lane position.

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=j2WJrmI9,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-01-16T18:39:23.204+0000)Also using that definition, I don't see a particular problem with renaming the support role to the "utility" role.

I just really think Riot needs to knuckle down and clean up class ambiguity as a whole. J4 is a Fighter that Riot themselves have listed as a Tank(/Fighter)! Even though he obviously plays very differently than the magic damage and AoE focused Amumu, Rammus, Sejuani, Leona, Nautilus. Cho'Gath, etc.

I blame a lot of this mess on their lack of experience when they were first starting out. But it's S5 now and they no longer have that excuse.

BorigradJan 16, 20151 votes

The problem is that it's an outdated definition by now. With the new items (like Frostqueen, Face of the Mountain, and ward trinkets), "supports" now have more gold to use on themselves than ever! Hence the temporary rise of Annie and Fiddle who have great scaling. (Before Riot intentionally kicked them out of bottom lane.)

Both of these champions have been played as supports long before those items were even thought of. Fiddle support goes back to season 1 and Annie support goes back to season 2. Also those champions weren't nerfed for being supports, they were nerfed for being the BEST supports of their times. There was nothing that could lane against Annie and Fiddlesticks has universally been panned as one of the most frustrating champions in the game to play against since his inception. They weren't nerfed for mages played in support role, they were nerfed cause nothing could even go near them in lane.

Also if you cared for Annie support at all, you would realize it still gets played in OGN (LCK.) So it clearly still functions, it's just not the end all be all of supports.

Done25Jan 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Both of these champions have been played as supports long before those items were even thought of. Fiddle support goes back to season 1 and Annie support goes back to season 2. Also those champions weren't nerfed for being supports, they were nerfed for being the BEST supports of their times. There was nothing that could lane against Annie and Fiddlesticks has universally been panned as one of the most frustrating champions in the game to play against since his inception. They weren't nerfed for mages played in support role, they were nerfed cause nothing could even go near them in lane.

Also if you cared for Annie support at all, you would realize it still gets played in OGN (LCK.) So it clearly still functions, it's just not the end all be all of supports.

Yes, but they didn't EXPLODE into popularity until later.

Rew711Jan 16, 20156 votes

Actually, all champions need gold to scale.

I cannot say much for Braum Nami Lulu Sona or Thresh since I have not got to getting them as of yet.

I will only go towards champions that say they are supports, so champions like Blitzcrank who are not supports at all or champions like Leona who are secondaries will not count.

From the ones I have:

Janna has no real power except in poke. Her Q has been nerfed to crazy extremes. And her major heal is not at all as good as Soraka's. I for one think its wrong and irrational to nerf a support like Janna this much. She now relies on major AP items to be able to help any.

Nunu is by far, one of the most unique of his time, supports who can actually support very well. He has only been untouched because of his role in the jungle and by far now seems like a worthy choice for support. He doesn't need much like the others to go in and do good damage and stay alive at the same time. His passive was also reused on Lissandra of all things.

Soraka is the saddest to see nerfed because of her immensely useful kit. Her nice heals and mana regen E made her one of my favorites when supporting. But, now after the change, she is too easy to kill. Uses up too much mana and sacrifices too much of her own life. But at least she has 2 damaging spells.

Taric is possibly coming in close 3rd or 4th on the support scale. His heals now match those of his competitors and he gives a lot of nice bonus' to his allies. But he needs a lot of AP/health/armor that are not cheep. He also has the most squishy early game and is the hardest to use because of this.

Zilean got hit HARD by the nerfs Riot gave. His only attack was nerfed to go up to 320. If my opponent just gets item 3027 , they're safe because they get 650 health that blocks the 640 damage I'd give. That means, I have to build only large AP items. But, now item 3128 isn't even in Summoner's Rift anymore. So much for that scaling item.

Riot's nerfs to Sona have made so many angry. Yet, she is still played more than Lulu or Nunu support.

By the way, there are only 10 out of 122 champions that are supports. (And again, I mean it must say they are support and not the secondary.)

disregardableJan 16, 20151 votes

I started trying to go through these one by one, but you make the same mistake for every champion. Supports aren't supposed to be built to deal damage or be Maokai. I think you would have a lot more success if you stopped trying to do that. Max Janna's E, don't bring nunu, Raka needs health not AP, build CDR on the other ones.

Zilean is the only champion you listed that there's an argument for building damage on. And even then he's better off maxing CDR and making full use of his ult and movement speed to ward all the time. By the way, starting Seraph's embrace on him is so OP.

I mean you could definitely build them like they're just solo laners. People do it all the time. But that doesn't make them as good supports.

BouncingPecsJan 16, 20157 votes

Omg what are you talking about?

The majority of supports were nerfed with the intention that they would be building AP with the new gold generation items. You actually NEED gold now to get them to where they used to be. The AP isn't about damage, they give larger buffs and debuffs with more AP.

Janna gives more AD for her E Raka loses % of her health...but heals herself and times much more than she would lose after the first 200+ bonus health with AP Lulu, Sona and Nami also have nerfed values that give stronger CC with AP. (In Lulu's case SUBSTANTIAL speed buff which became broken in the LCS)

disregardableJan 16, 20151 votes

The AP Ratios are so weak that it doesn't matter. Janna's AD ratio is 10%. Raka's self heal is 40%. It doesn't even make sense to bother building that much AP. This is why Riot makes support items,

Janna build: item 3504 item 3069 item 3165 item 3117 item 2049 item 3190

Does it have AP? Yeah. Is it designed to make you kill/harass things? nope. Most of the items are cheap and high utility. You could even leave item 3105 of the legion as is, really.

Done25Jan 16, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=j2WJrmI9,comment-id=000100000001000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-16T20:00:11.981+0000)

The AP Ratios are so weak that it doesn't matter. Janna's AD ratio is 10%. Raka's self heal is 40%. It doesn't even make sense to bother building that much AP. This is why Riot makes support items,

Janna build:

Does it have AP? Yeah. Is it designed to make you kill/harass things? nope. Most of the items are cheap and high utility. You could even leave of the legion as is, really.

Raka actually has very good ratios. I tend to get around 500 AP and my R can heal for 600 HP. (900 if the passive kicks in.) It is VERY satisfying to see the enemy Talon break out into tears in All Chat when I Wish Tristana back to full HP after he bursts her, for the third time in a row. ^_^

BouncingPecsJan 16, 20154 votes

That is a horrible Soraka build, though the janna one is pretty close to spot on. (The boots?...she's really fast without it, why not go survivability?)

You will never make enough money to buy a warmog's and RoA, and even if you do, you get RoA so late that you might not reach its max.

For Raka, who I main, the only way of making it so she's not instantly deleted and has any impact late game is with:

item 3157 (She needs Armor and AP, this way she can also bait an assassin while she drops silence around herself) item 3092 (She disengages far better and can actually land her follow up slow and root as a result) item 3222 (A third heal and CC removal, this is almost standard on higher elo supports. Also MR) item 3504 (More AP and Global AS buff) item 2045 (Health, and her role is to support. She NEEDS wards) item 3111 (Stops assassins and gets you safe, also her passive speeds her up if she needs to run to someone)

Her survivability relies on the Armor and MR she gets along with skillful play. Buying health on her is wasted because every health item is expensive and there is never a point in the game where you go "Well this seems like the best time to buy a giant's belt or catalyst." The items I chose all have very impactful component items.

Robins TightsJan 16, 20153 votes

A major issue before the gold generation items was that supports were too good with 0cs and still buying AP items instead of utility items. They lost damage as well as utility ratios because of it, in hopes of preventing solo lane viability and to convince people to purchase things like health and armor. I wouldn't buy health on Soraka, because then which item would you get? Rylai's is kind of a waste since she already has a slow on her Q and her E could still be walked out of with it.

disregardableJan 16, 20151 votes

My preferred build: item 3504 item 3027 item 2049 item 3117 item 3083 item 3190

I prefer Rod over Rylai's, just because Raka is usually oom. I'll usually let it sit as item 3010 until late game. Sometimes I'll get Talisman over Warmog's, but I kinda like building it just because she is one of the few champions it gets any use on.

FantasySniperJan 17, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=j2WJrmI9,comment-id=0001000000010000,timestamp=2015-01-16T19:41:32.283+0000)Raka needs health not AP

I want to listen to you... but... this needs to be addressed first.

Health: Loses most - if not all - of its effectiveness through your own health destruction. AP: You get more health, your team gets more health, you don't need to heal as often, you're not running out of health as often, everyone wins.

SmokingPuffinJan 16, 20155 votes

The original support designs actually had quite high AP ratios. Janna, for example, had 0.75AP on Q, 1.0AP on W, 1.0AP on E, and 1.0AP on R. It was only later that Riot rebalanced the support class for 0cs play.

This is the core reason why support has a confusing and contradictory pair of meanings. 0cs play wasn't part of the original design intent, and they had to retrofit many things to roll with the obvious reality that it was the most efficient way to play. It took them about 3 years to get the support role into a decent state.

Make no mistake, Annie and Fiddlesticks are not support champions. They are mages being played in the support role.

OrbvJan 16, 20155 votes

Utility in itself should be separated from Crowd Control, it encompasses too many champions. I honestly think that it's ridiculous to have only 6 classes of champions (especially because "Assassins" could either be Mages or Fighters (Veigar/Irelia)

Support should only encompass Utility, so like you said, the role should be named the "Utility" Class or the "Guardians". Champions focused on CC with high base damage should be "Disruptors". But so many champions have CC now that it really gets convoluted.

7ha7guy777Jan 16, 20153 votes

with your terms, Malzahar would make much more sense as a mage/disruptor than a mage/assassin. under the current class system, there isn't a good secondary term for what he is. Assassins are typically champions that can go in, get a kill, and get out. Malzahar doesn't need to go in, and he can't get out if he does. the closest thing he has to a reset is his E and that won't get him multiple kills unless the enemies are already low.

OrbvJan 16, 20154 votes

I'd be okay with that. There are only 5 Aoe Silences in the game, and each one is from a disruptor (Cho'Gath, Soraka, Fiddlesticks, Blitzcrank, Malzahar)

Done25Jan 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

with your terms, Malzahar would make much more sense as a mage/disruptor than a mage/assassin. under the current class system, there isn't a good secondary term for what he is. Assassins are typically champions that can go in, get a kill, and get out. Malzahar doesn't need to go in, and he can't get out if he does. the closest thing he has to a reset is his E and that won't get him multiple kills unless the enemies are already low.

He was originally an AP Carry. Open a pool under the enemy tank then suppress them until they melted away. The problem with AP carries, as Riot found out, is that being 100 - 0ed from the bushes without you being able to do anything back just isn't FUN. (Veigar. Fizz. LeBlanc (Which is why she lost her silence btw).)

Done25Jan 16, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Utility in itself should be separated from Crowd Control, it encompasses too many champions. I honestly think that it's ridiculous to have only 6 classes of champions (especially because "Assassins" could either be Mages or Fighters (Veigar/Irelia)

Support should only encompass Utility, so like you said, the role should be named the "Utility" Class or the "Guardians". Champions focused on CC with high base damage should be "Disruptors". But so many champions have CC now that it really gets convoluted.

Here's how I see things. Every champion has a Class and a preferred Role.

Class: Two attributes define what they DO, Melee/Ranged and Single/AoE

Fighter - Single Target Melee - Primarily auto attacks - Fizz, Akali, Master Yi, J4, Yorick, Udyr, Shaco, Nocturne

Tank - AoE Melee - Primarily ability based - Amumu, Sejuani, Zac, Singed, Galio, Rammus, Leona.

Marksman - Single Target Ranged - Primarily auto attacks - Caitlyn, Vayne, Ashe, Graves, Lucian, Varus, Miss Fortune.

Mage - AoE Ranged - Primarily ability based - Veigar, Anivia, Annie, Soraka, Janna, Sona, Lissandra

Role: Not what they do, but HOW they do it.

Assassin - Slippery get in, kill, get out - Shaco, Nocturne, Akali, Fizz.

Disruptor - Forcibly creates openings - J4, Amumu, Gragas, Sejuani, Leona, Thresh, Trundle

Support - Increases the power of their allies - Soraka, Janna, Nami, Taric,

[Carry(?) - (Not really sure what to label people who are just about causing lots of raw damage with no fancy tricks. Ex. Brand and Annie)]

I came up with that in 5 min. Surely Riot can do better?

Jarvan: Fighter - Disruptor Trundle: Fighter - Disruptor Akali: Fighter - Assassin Fizz: Fighter - Assassin Master Yi: Fighter - Assasin Orianna: Mage - Support Soraka: Mage - Support Janna: Mage - Support Leona: Tank - Disruptor Braum: Fighter - Disruptor

An example of this "trinity" in action.

Braum Disrupts the enemy team with his R (Glacial Fissure) and prevents counter fire with his E (Unbreakable). Nocturne jumps in and Assassinates the enemy Marksman. Orianna covers him, Supporting his dive with her shield and powerful CC to prevent his target from escaping.

(I view Orianna as a Support as her Q is slower than allowing a team mate to carry the ball for you.)

OrbvJan 16, 20152 votes

I really like these lol.

Can this be implemented ASAP? It would help a lot of people.

junglerboy16Jan 16, 20152 votes

I like this idea a lot more than just "strategist". It would probably need a lot of fine tuning to best define who is what (for instance, emphasize that tanks are super durable, while emphasizing that fighters under this definition aren't), but this or a similar system would be much more helpful as a quick reference to figure out how somebody plays best than what we have now.

Done25Jan 16, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I like this idea a lot more than just "strategist". It would probably need a lot of fine tuning to best define who is what (for instance, emphasize that tanks are super durable, while emphasizing that fighters under this definition aren't), but this or a similar system would be much more helpful as a quick reference to figure out how somebody plays best than what we have now.

The whole "tanks are durable" is actually a bit of a backwards misconception. You don't send Amumu into the middle of the enemy team because he's naturally durable. (He really isn't. Tantrum's damage reduction is a joke vs a 400 damage crit from Tristana) But rather, he builds durably because in the middle of the enemy team is when he's most effective!

Think about it, what hurts more? Amumu who's crying on a single champion? Or one who's right in the middle of a 5 man group as his pops his R+E?

Frozen Heart is great on Amumu. But there is no reason as to why he can't get a Rylas instead, or even a Zhonya.

junglerboy16Jan 17, 20151 votes

Good point, I hadn't really considered that.

Done25Jan 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Good point, I hadn't really considered that.

Especially since they doubled the self heal ratio she gets for landing her Q.

MinardeJan 17, 20151 votes

You're confusing Support position and Support role.

Support position is "the guy who goes bot and gets the marksman fed." Support role is the shield/heal/buff utility person.

It's a common issue for people who play mainly SR (and TT, to a lesser extent). The ADC/Support positions are so deeply entrenched in the meta that where a champion goes gets mixed up with what a champion contributes to the team. There was a Riot post about a year and a half ago that goes into this a little further. http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=39858469

In this sense, yeah, Riot should rename the role to avoid confusion with the position.

Done25Jan 17, 20152 votes

{quoted}

You're confusing Support position and Support role.

Support position is "the guy who goes bot and gets the marksman fed." Support role is the shield/heal/buff utility person.

It's a common issue for people who play mainly SR (and TT, to a lesser extent). The ADC/Support positions are so deeply entrenched in the meta that where a champion goes gets mixed up with what a champion contributes to the team. There was a Riot post about a year and a half ago that goes into this a little further. http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=39858469

In this sense, yeah, Riot should rename the role to avoid confusion with the position.

I think everyone is confused on multiple subjects such as the dffernce between a tanky Fighter/Bruiser (J4) and a damaging Tank (Amumu). There are people out there who insist Mundo is a Tank just because he's really hard to kill.

Hell, the fact that people are still calling Fighters "Bruisers" is on its own enough to show how badly Riot has performed in keeping the players informed.

It Hertz When IPJan 16, 20154 votes

Except if you just change the name, that isn't going to change how people think/behave.

Knight DevoutJan 16, 20154 votes

A friend of mine pointed out one thing. Marksman, Assassin, Fighter, Mage, Tank, and Support were the icon given out when TB launched. But notice: Marksman, Assassin, Fighter, Tank and Mage are champion classes/types. Support is a role.

Not even Riot is quite sure of what their names stand for. In my opinion, the support icon should have just be renamed strategist as you said. Leona is played support (ROLE) but she's a tank as a CLASS. Also, while being support, she doesn't quite "enhances" her ally, but rather disables enemies.

So, what role do you queue as with leona? Tank? Support? In the end it doesn't matter, you will still find a team uberfast due to Leona being commonly accepted as a really good support. Your definition of strategist is good, IMHO, but support(as a role) is going to need a relaunch real quick. I was right back in season 2, even then no one believed me until preseason 3 hit the pbe :D

MinardeJan 17, 20152 votes

The confusion is that Support exists both as a role ("champion class/type") and as a position (what you called a "role").

Position defines where you go (e.g. mid, top, jungle). Role defines what you contribute to the team (e.g. damage through auto-attacks, damage through ranged abilities, beefy frontline).

As you said, Leona is a Tank role played in the Support position. She functions as a beefy frontline in fights, yet goes around warding and protecting the ADC during laning. In contrast, Sona would be a Support role played in the Support position. She's definitely not a beefy frontline; instead she buffs the team while disrupting the enemy. However, she also goes around warding and protecting the ADC during laning.

Riot could probably help resolve some of the confusion by simply renaming the Support role to differentiate from the Support position. Unfortunately, the "ranged auto-attacker" also suffers from role/position confusion, but since "Marksman" is officially a role, "ADC" can sorta be used as a makeshift position label.

Knight DevoutJan 17, 20151 votes

But, for example, a Marksman can go top to counter a melee lane bully, and still be a marskman, while for adc is usually intended a champion that goes botlane ,shares that lane and tries to farm as best as he/she can for the lategame costant damage output.

MinardeJan 17, 20151 votes

I think that's what I said.

"Marksman" is a role describing champions that deal damage primarily through ranged auto-attacks. "ADC" is a position for a champion that goes bot, shares the lane, and farms for late-game.

As I mentioned, it's confusing due to overlap. ADC position is almost always occupied by a Marksman, but a Marksman doesn't always have to go to the ADC position. Quinn would be an example of one that goes top to counter a melee.

BeersteinJan 16, 20153 votes

How about "Slave"

SerBlaiseJan 16, 20153 votes

I can't believe they kick you; most teams are happy to just find someone who is supporting after 10 min of waiting

SmokingPuffinJan 16, 20152 votes

When I take a game-listed support champ, with a solid support kit, in a position that's in demand, and will cut down on their queue time by 5 to 10 minutes - they still choose to wait.

This happens even with primary: support champions. I've had a hard time getting games as Lulu or Zilean. If you don't play fotm, expect the queue to break out its meta enforcement batons.

CaptanKrushnKillJan 16, 20151 votes

Neither of those is a yolo queue champ. Both require coordination with the Carry and a shot-caller. While it's good to know those champs for those times you queue as a group, most people know that they are not useful solo queueing.

It's understandable people wouldn't want under-powered champs in their games.

BeersteinJan 16, 20152 votes

You could also change "support" to "woman". So every time the support screws up "dammit woman!" Honestly given the ratio of females playing each role vs males playing it odds are you're right anyways.

missinggraveJan 17, 20153 votes

I'm a male support main and my friend is a female ADC main. While you might argue, "There's always an outlier" you can't speak for everyone without actually knowing for a fact. Show me statistics for what you are saying is even true, and I will give you credit for that much. However, the sexism is pretty rude and unneeded and it'd be appreciated if you didn't use it.

BeersteinJan 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm a male support main and my friend is a female ADC main. While you might argue, "There's always an outlier" you can't speak for everyone without actually knowing for a fact. Show me statistics for what you are saying is even true, and I will give you credit for that much. However, the sexism is pretty rude and unneeded and it'd be appreciated if you didn't use it.

I also play support for a female sometimes, and yet I still don't care if you can't take a joke, that's part of what makes it funny.

missinggraveJan 17, 20152 votes

Joke: (Noun) a thing that someone says or does to cause amusement or laughter, especially a story with a funny punchline

Joke: (Noun) -informal- a person or thing that is ridiculously inadequate

Due to the fact that most people would feel offended or at the very least annoyed by the sexist remark - which is visible by the down votes - I can say that in a general sense, your statement isn't a joke in any FORMAL sense of the word.

BeersteinJan 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Joke: (Noun) a thing that someone says or does to cause amusement or laughter, especially a story with a funny punchline

Joke: (Noun) -informal- a person or thing that is ridiculously inadequate

Due to the fact that most people would feel offended or at the very least annoyed by the sexist remark - which is visible by the down votes - I can say that in a general sense, your statement isn't a joke in any FORMAL sense of the word.

No wonder you're support, cause damn woman you're overemotional. Also there have been many polls in the past, it's well known that females gravitate towards the support position more, anyone that has a lot of female friends that play will tell you the same.

Anyways back on topic in a more serious manner instead of having an e peen contest with a support main....Honestly what's the point in changing the name, there was no point in the "marksman" change, and people still call it ADC because it makes sense, it's short and easy to type fast.

missinggraveJan 17, 20152 votes

Again, I'm male, but I suppose that's beside the point. Also, when have I been overemotional? I haven't really stated anything with strong bias, only using evidence or asking for YOUR evidence. Also, most female League players I play with prefer ADC and top lane. Only one of them actually plays support as their main role and they don't even play that often anymore. Finally, can you please SHOW your evidence? I can claim things just as much as you can, but we both know that unless we can back it up it doesn't mean much in an intellectual debate.

As for the name change, I think I can sum up one of the main reasons we want it:

You could also change "support" to "woman". So every time the support screws up "dammit woman!" Honestly given the ratio of females playing each role vs males playing it odds are you're right anyways.

and

They don't read "lap dog" they read "team babysitter".

We don't want to be considered someone who is worthy of disrespect, not able to make our own important plays, and still have to keep others alive even if we're doing the best we possibly can for the team. Even if it's a slight name change just to better describe how we can do more than just get our carries fed, I would really appreciate that. That's why we want the name change.

Done25Jan 17, 20151 votes

{quoted} Anyways back on topic in a more serious manner instead of having an e peen contest with a support main....Honestly what's the point in changing the name, there was no point in the "marksman" change, and people still call it ADC because it makes sense, it's short and easy to type fast.

Actually there is a point. ADC was also used to refer to people like Yi. It also constrained Riot into making every Marksman a dps carry. In contrast there are also more utility based marksmen like Ashe and Kalista who don't reach Tristan's levels of dps, but can help to support their team via utility from the back line.

junglerboy16Jan 16, 20152 votes

They don't read "lap dog" they read "team babysitter".

I would be for renaming them in some way that highlights their general utility function. Strategist doesn't sound quite right, and Playmaker sounds too much like it is still talking about role instead of class.

VelivoloJan 16, 20151 votes

I think the support role could use a rename, too. Support just doesn't sound like we do a lot, when often we're the ones that can make the whole teamfight or score our adc that sweet double kill in lane.

The previously mentioned "Guardians" suggestion sounds cool as hell, but I'm not sure it applies to every support. I think "playmakers" is rather fitting, because that's often what a support is doing. It also emphasises our importance to the team, painting supports as a vital player with the capability of changing the course of the game (which is true). It also de-emphasises the idea that supports are only relevant in terms of what they're doing to help other players (often technically true, but if I'm correct that's the part that makes supports sound sucky so why not push it to the back?)

As an aside, I saw all those Raka builds and was starting to think I was some sort of scrub because I always, always, ALWAYS build Crucible on Raka and only the last example build actually included it xD

Done25Jan 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I think the support role could use a rename, too. Support just doesn't sound like we do a lot, when often we're the ones that can make the whole teamfight or score our adc that sweet double kill in lane.

The previously mentioned "Guardians" suggestion sounds cool as hell, but I'm not sure it applies to every support. I think "playmakers" is rather fitting, because that's often what a support is doing. It also emphasises our importance to the team, painting supports as a vital player with the capability of changing the course of the game (which is true). It also de-emphasises the idea that supports are only relevant in terms of what they're doing to help other players (often technically true, but if I'm correct that's the part that makes supports sound sucky so why not push it to the back?)

As an aside, I saw all those Raka builds and was starting to think I was some sort of scrub because I always, always, ALWAYS build Crucible on Raka and only the last example build actually included it xD

I actually don't build it on her at all. She already has enough raw healing power from her kit. More AP/CDR to fuel her heals/Q is what I prefer.

Archangel can easily give out a good 120+ AP and provides a powerful anti burst shield that can save your life.

VelivoloJan 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I actually don't build it on her at all. She already has enough raw healing power from her kit. More AP/CDR to fuel her heals/Q is what I prefer.

Archangel can easily give out a good 120+ AP and provides a powerful anti burst shield that can save your life.

Oh, for OTHER people she has plenty of raw heal. But sometimes for yourself, it's just hard to get in there and q. Or you get caught, and you need help and the cleanse doesn't hurt either. Or maybe you're trying to help sustain in one of those weird midlane stalemates that tends to happen later in the game, and you just can't get close enough to q without risking their team just pouncing on you.

InsaneSamuraiJan 17, 20151 votes

I think something needs to either be done to the support role, or options need to be added to it to make it interesting to more than a very small percent of the community.

Miku Lv99Jan 17, 20151 votes

In my mind, there are a lot more than 3 things of shields, heals, and buffs, that would qualify as support things.

Vision. (Wards, abilities that grant vision of enemy units, and summoned units like Tibbers can even give vision)
Shields. (Eye of the storm, face of the mountain, etc.)
Heals. (Astral infusion, Ebb and Flow, etc.)
Mana restoration - Although this has been removed from the game entirely (Previous Soraka's infuse)
Buffs (Sona's auras, aegis, etc.)
Debuffs, although this one is kinda vague. But I do think using something like exhaust is a support thing. Why does it matter so much if it's lowering their damage vs increasing your ally's defense?
Cleanse (Mikael's, QSS, and of course, Cleanse)
Denying enemy vision (Sweepers, vision wards, other true sight, or any other ways of destroying their wards)
Gold income (Targon's Brace)
Mobility (Thresh's lantern)
Denying enemy attacks (Black shield, wind wall, body blocking, etc.)

I personally would not count CC. CC is a different thing than support IMO and generally serves very different purposes than any of the things I listed above. My list is all about helping teammates survive, get stronger, and be able to win fights by relying on their own strengths and abilities. CC is more like you caught an enemy and then they're just a free kill for someone on your team. A carry could kill them without even needing any of their abilities. If I could make up my own list of all the types of champions, it's be something more like:

Bruiser Tank - Guys like darius and garen that are tanks but also designed to do some pretty good damage even in short amounts of time. CC Tank - Champions like Sion or Leona that are tanks but still help win fights by keeping enemies CC'd a lot, not necessarily by doing much damage. Burst Mage - Mage like leblanc or katarina that does a lot of damage over a short period of time, although not necessarily very high dps over a long period of time. DPS Mage - Mage like Ziggs, Vel'Koz, Xerath, or Karthus that, given enough time, can do a whole lot of damage to enemies. Assassin - Physical damage dealer version of a burst mage. Someone like Talon or Zed. ADC / Marksman - Ranged physical version of a DPS Mage that tries to maximize damage per second using physical attacks. ADC / Melee - Melee physical version of a marksman. For guys like Master Yi that, although he could be considered an assassin, I say he should be something different. Because his dps does not end after defeating one enemy. He can wipe out their entire team faster than a marksman if given the chance. I don't know exactly what this class should be called but I feel like it should exist. Fighter - Somewhere between a bruiser and an assassin. Not a tank, but not someone that can insta kill enemies, either. But still generally very good at fighting 1v1 and good offense and good defense. Someone like Jax. Traditional Support - Does any decent amount of the 11 things mentioned above. Soraka, Sona, etc. CC Support - Well, the only thing that's left. A champion that isn't a CC tank but still relies a lot on CC. Basically any of the supports that have CC abilities that they plan to use on enemies reasonably often. Most of what they do lies in their other abilities. But some other supports, like Nami, Janna can potentially have their opponents CC'd quite a lot of the time.

Some champions are more than one type obviously, but I think I could fit every champion in the game into these, with giving most of them a secondary. And it would be a pretty good description of what they do.

Done25Jan 17, 20151 votes

I'd argue a lot of your things actually make Supports harder to define. Manly in that you include a lot of items that non-Support champions can and will buy.

[{quoted}](name=Miku Lv99,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=j2WJrmI9,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2015-01-17T02:23:53.711+0000)

In my mind, there are a lot more than 3 things of shields, heals, and buffs, that would qualify as support things.

Vision. (Wards, abilities that grant vision of enemy units, and summoned units like Tibbers can even give vision)

Anyone can use wards. And while it does provide vision that's not really the intent of Tibbers or other controlled pets. But Orianna's Ball and Thresh's Lantern are great sources of non-destroyable long lasting vision. However, it's such a minor and rare trait that I would hesitate to use t for an entire Classification.

Shields. (Eye of the storm, face of the mountain, etc.)

Anyone can buy face of the mountain, it does not turn them into a Support.

Heals. (Astral infusion, Ebb and Flow, etc.)

Mana restoration - Although this has been removed from the game entirely

Mana restore falls in the same category as healing HP anyways.

Buffs (Sona's auras, aegis, etc.)

Amumu can buy Ageis, doesn't make him a Support.

Debuffs, although this one is kinda vague. But I do think using something like exhaust is a support thing. Why does it matter so much if it's lowering their damage vs increasing your ally's defense?

More commonly known as "CC", which you later say you don't count.