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Can you make Illaoi's E more intuitive please

Moody P··6 votes·1,769 views

Currently the Vessel mechanic is IMO a strong negative for the game because;

  • doesn't give Illaoi much to work with despite being her "main" way to get out tentacles ASAP because they spawn one by one and their spawning can be completely halted by the person standing near one. The Vessel mechanic working in her favor in appreciable ways like hitting a Vessel and getting a takedown or a clutch heal happens too rarely to be considered viable power budget allotment
  • Vessel minigame is tedious at best and obnoxious at worst, doesn't create any interesting gameplay for either party

my proposal that I think fixes these 2 issues and more

  • The Vessel now spawns up to 1-1-2-2-3 tentacles (based on E rank) on any available surface within lets say 3 seconds. ("Available" meaning more or less the same as now where you can't stack tentacles on the same walls) (Maybe based on damage dealt to the spirit in thirds, so someone who quickly escapes spawns only 1 rather than 3?)
  • Vessel targets do not draw tentacle aggro (this would remove a lot of Illaoi voice lines related to the debuff but I consider it a worth sacrifice; you could change the Vessel VFX to when your spirit is out in play to make up for it)

what this does:

  • minor nerf to laning as enemies spend less time passively zoned by Vesseling
  • Big reduction in frustration because the Vessel debuff is minimized in favor of a more intuitive approach for both sides
  • Net power up for scaling as Illaoi can actually use E for spawning tentacles and can use it in an aggressive manner to more reliably advance on a lane or objective as reward for her good play.

I think this would be overall a good approach to making Illaoi more intuitive while simultaneously reducing a big part of what makes her frustrating - and in turn reducing some of her soloQ abusing capability.

19 Comments

The Ecdysiast2 votes

I wonder who'd be making a suggestion that clearly has no downside for Illaoi and would only make it so she can be aggressive more easily (not as a display of higher skill), while also removing the over-time aspect that gives people the opportunity to end the effect. And I'm not shocked to see it's someone who only ever suggests straight-up buffs to juggernauts.

It's not her "main" way of getting tentacles out quickly. In fact if you're using it hoping to spawn tentacles then you've already missed the chance to use the ability that is her main way of spawning tentacles-- since her R considers the spirit to be a champion for the number of tentacles spawned. She has no other way to get tentacles out quickly specifically because that would put way too much power into the time when she doesn't have her ultimate up.

If what you want is a buff to her E, then the proper change would be to drastically nerf her ultimate, where most of her tentacle power resides. Simply making vessels not pull aggro when that almost never ends up killing or even hurting them in the first place is not enough of a compensation nerf.

That's like saying, "let's give Yi AS on passive, too, but to balance it out he can't hit two people with the same proc of his double-strike." The buff you're suggesting far, far outweighs the nonexistent cost you've proposed.

Moody P3 votes

You talk too much about champions you don't know enough of. Illaoi isn't popping her R in a siege or a push for more tentacles. Its her response move to getting all-in'd.

Only ever suggested buffs

pretty sure just a week ago I've complained about Nasus being over-stat and I've complained multiple times about various juggernaut weak kits being covered up with unreasonable damage numbers to mimic an acceptable performance. I didn't mention a compensation here because it's not relevant to the suggestion; I'd be more than happy with exchanging damage for agency.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iylfF8Mt,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-03-10T16:21:09.692+0000)

You talk too much about champions you don't know enough of. Illaoi isn't popping her R in a siege or a push for more tentacles. Its her response move to getting all-in'd.

pretty sure just a week ago I've complained about Nasus being over-stat and I've complained multiple times about various juggernaut weak kits being covered up with unreasonable damage numbers to mimic an acceptable performance. I didn't mention a compensation here because it's not relevant to the suggestion; I'd be more than happy with exchanging damage for agency.

Uhuh. No, buddy. I know plenty about the champions. Playing solely juggernauts, allowing yourself to be blinded from the facts and reality because you like the class, is not conducive to discussion.

Illaoi isn't using her tentacles in a seige because that is a strength she is not intended to have. It's exactly because you're biased that you don't see that fact.

Compensation nerfs are always necessary when you're trying to suggest heavy buffs to a champion that isn't performing poorly. That's where you fail in most of your threads, always suggesting changes that in your eyes are just QoL but in reality would be powerful buffs, with no adjustment.

Luckily, Riot isn't going to be taking the suggestions of biased players on the boards any time soon, so your threads aren't really damaging anything.

Moody P2 votes

no, you don't. which is why you're generally best left ignored.

The Ecdysiast3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iylfF8Mt,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-10T16:34:22.680+0000)

no, you don't. which is why you're generally best left ignored.

Smart job, not even responding to my points because you have no leg to stand on.

Moody P2 votes

why would I respond to things that demonstrate your complete lack of understanding of my champions? You have no idea what Illaoi does. Humoring your theory craft gets me nowhere.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iylfF8Mt,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-10T18:04:59.300+0000)

why would I respond to things that demonstrate your complete lack of understanding of my champions? You have no idea what Illaoi does. Humoring your theory craft gets me nowhere.

When you take the time to respond, "you don't deserve a response," when responding with a a solid, reasonable argument could settle things, you're only proving you never had a solid argument to begin with.

Moody P2 votes

I have to be provided an argument to work with that's better than incomplete numbers from a person with no experience to put them in context and intentional misrepresentation or an outright lie like Illaoi not contributing to a siege when she's one of the best juggernauts to pick into a siege composition.

Never said it was QOL. I asked for a more intuitive spell. Two separate things entirely.

Illaoi is not bottom of the barrel but she isn't strong either. Shes a very low presence champion at all relevant levels of play. SoloQ performance is not an absolute measure of power; if she were a strong pick she would have a higher presence. It's the same reason a champion like Shaco does well in SoloQ despite being a completely mediocre champion; they both thrive against uncoordinated randoms and fall apart against competent teams.

This buff isn't nearly as heavy as you think it is. Not being zoned from tentacles that spawn away from Illaoi is a large hit to her early bullying where even a second spent waiting for tentacles to spawn is potentially missing CS and getting snowballed on by Illlaoi smothering you. It also means that they will do nothing to you once you are Vesseled, which means that there's no free slap on a fleeing Vessel or when the spirit pops and marks them. The change is only positive if Illaoi pushes up, which she simply can't afford to do until at least level 6 and a full item.

Anything else youd like me to address, just ask.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iylfF8Mt,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-11T04:20:13.390+0000)

I have to be provided an argument to work with that's better than incomplete numbers from a person with no experience to put them in context and intentional misrepresentation or an outright lie like Illaoi not contributing to a siege when she's one of the best juggernauts to pick into a siege composition.

Never said it was QOL. I asked for a more intuitive spell. Two separate things entirely.

Illaoi is not bottom of the barrel but she isn't strong either. Shes a very low presence champion at all relevant levels of play. SoloQ performance is not an absolute measure of power; if she were a strong pick she would have a higher presence. It's the same reason a champion like Shaco does well in SoloQ despite being a completely mediocre champion; they both thrive against uncoordinated randoms and fall apart against competent teams.

This buff isn't nearly as heavy as you think it is. Not being zoned from tentacles that spawn away from Illaoi is a large hit to her early bullying where even a second spent waiting for tentacles to spawn is potentially missing CS and getting snowballed on by Illlaoi smothering you. It also means that they will do nothing to you once you are Vesseled, which means that there's no free slap on a fleeing Vessel or when the spirit pops and marks them. The change is only positive if Illaoi pushes up, which she simply can't afford to do until at least level 6 and a full item.

Anything else youd like me to address, just ask.

  1. There's no such thing as "incomplete" numbers. You may argue that I didn't provide all the relevant numbers, sure. But you haven't done so.

  2. I didn't lie. You misread. What I said was that having additional tentacles during a siege outside of landing her R on multiple targets is not a strength she is supposed to have. And that is precisely because she is already strong enough in a siege.

  3. What you're saying, then, is that you want her to be overpowered, not in the middle of the pack like she is nicely situated. Which is exactly what a suggestion like the one in your original post would do to her.

  4. You're speaking as if people get hit with tentacles frequently after escaping her E, but it's very rare for that to happen. Not many people are going to just stand still knowing their opponent is Illaoi. And those who know how she works would have aimed to end the E before they even became a Vessel.

While I'm glad you finally got your head out of your own butt long enough to respond, your responses were still quite weak.

0 Hogapu1 votes

yo dude you really have to chill out you know

Moody just asked for a tradeoff, which is : tentacles won't attack the Vessel, and instead of it, he wants her E to have some compensation buffs.

You're speaking as if people get hit with tentacles frequently after escaping her E, but it's very rare for that to happen.

It's not rare at all when you R into "nothing", just to make tentacles slam faster. I got a lot of kills using this technique, but it was not satisfying doing so, it is just - again - not me who's using it, it's the RNG.

So yeah, Moody is right when he says you don't know what you're talking about. You hardly play Illaoi anyway (and don't tell me "this is smurf acc lol"), and you're just spitting out facts like "she shouldn't be good in sieges, she's not supposed to have this" If YOU don't want her to have this, fine, but you got to accept that you're not representing the whole League reality.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MTFN Azor ,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iylfF8Mt,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-11T09:18:24.995+0000)

yo dude you really have to chill out you know

Moody just asked for a tradeoff, which is : tentacles won't attack the Vessel, and instead of it, he wants her E to have some compensation buffs.

It's not rare at all when you R into "nothing", just to make tentacles slam faster. I got a lot of kills using this technique, but it was not satisfying doing so, it is just - again - not me who's using it, it's the RNG.

So yeah, Moody is right when he says you don't know what you're talking about. You hardly play Illaoi anyway (and don't tell me "this is smurf acc lol"), and you're just spitting out facts like "she shouldn't be good in sieges, she's not supposed to have this" If YOU don't want her to have this, fine, but you got to accept that you're not representing the whole League reality.

Considering that's not a tactic used by... anyone who makes Illaoi videos... you're talking out of your ass.

And again, stop putting words in my mouth. What I said was that she shouldn't have the strength of tentacles ON TOP OF her R for sieges. So before you try to talk, you should try learning to actually read what's written instead of making up your own version.

Moody's suggestion and his explanation for it are just not good. It's not that he's incapable of making a good suggestion, but he has yet to do so.

0 Hogapu1 votes

considering most players in the montage video are silver+, yeah, I dont expect them to do this (and since when is this an argument anyway lmfao)

oh by the way. me refusing to continue the conversation is not a proof that you are right. it rather shows that you can't keep a conversation in an acceptable way.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MTFN Azor ,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iylfF8Mt,comment-id=000200000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-12T07:57:36.155+0000)

considering most players in the montage video are silver+, yeah, I dont expect them to do this (and since when is this an argument anyway lmfao)

oh by the way. me refusing to continue the conversation is not a proof that you are right. it rather shows that you can't keep a conversation in an acceptable way.

"The montage video." What video? I didn't mention any video by name. What I was referring to were the high-rank tutorial videos.

And no, it's just that you provided no valid argument for your side of things and then refuse to bring one. So it's proof you don't have one. You getting mad about a civil discussion is on you.

Moody P1 votes

I'm stuck to my phone and hate writing longer posts on it. You know what I meant, buddy, don't be pedantic

That's a very weird stretch of logic; Illaoi's job outside of hitting R when engaged on is to spawn tentacles. She's not going to just mean mug you until you decide to engage her, and she's not gonna do a whole lot without tentacles leading up to her ultimate. Doesn't always happen, especially not in season 9 when front lines are still relatively rare.

Again, you're overestimating how big of a buff this actually is. Its a decent buff but it's entirely situational at best. Its basically trading her ability to cheese you with fog-of-war ults when you're low and Vesseled to fish for a snipe, for the ability to make Illaoi better at extending her influence as she pushes up a lane. Her situational kill pressure goes down in exchange for getting to become a better splitter. I've talked to other Illaoi mains about this and they mostly regard it as a nerf.

For all your condescension you still haven't convinced me that you actually understand the champion or that it was worth my time to write this for you.

Ragnaveil1 votes

I agree, the champ suffers from the fact most of the power in her kit comes from her E, and not her tentacle play.

heroikc1 votes

Though I'm loathe to support Illaoi in any way, this is definitely a considerate idea.

0 Hogapu1 votes

I agree that Illaoi needs some changes on this. You can't hit your E, kill the vessel, then pray God for your ennemy to be hit by a tentacle. This is frustrating both for the ennemy and the Illaoi player.

I would trade this ability for a better tentacle management, like Illaoi being able to put down tentacles on her own (clicking on terrain, instead of it being done by itself) or whatever leaves her more agency over her whole damage input source.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MTFN Azor ,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iylfF8Mt,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-03-10T16:09:41.383+0000)

I agree that Illaoi needs some changes on this. You can't hit your E, kill the vessel, then pray God for your ennemy to be hit by a tentacle. This is frustrating both for the ennemy and the Illaoi player.

I would trade this ability for a better tentacle management, like Illaoi being able to put down tentacles on her own (clicking on terrain, instead of it being done by itself) or whatever leaves her more agency over her whole damage input source.

If you're hitting with your E and then just hoping someone will get hit with a tentacle, you're playing Illaoi wrong. First off, you should be focusing your E second since its damage scales a lot more with rank than her W. They should be dead before they have the chance to becomes a Vessel if you're playing her right.

She has all the agency she needs, in her ultimate. If she were to get a lot more control over tentacle spawning, she would need heavy compensation nerfs to her ultimate.

0 Hogapu1 votes

what are you talking about. it is quite common in lane that your lane opponent is at 10%hp and is hit by vessel, and we are just hoping for him to die. this has nothing to do with "playing her right" anyway.

and by the way, I max my E over anything else. I will of course not max W, and I feel like maxing Q is a waste. (statistics show that both play styles are equivalent in terms of winrate, so theres no "maxing q is much better")

what I am asking about is lane changes. get rid of the E "plz god hit it" and give her more agency. this has little to do with her teamfight potential, but rather her laning phase between lvl 2-5.

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